Saw Something I That House

Steveads2004 · Post by **Steveads2004** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 9:00 pm

I recall reading that someone ( a lady neighbor?) perhaps Miss Russell, said she had seen something in that house that no one could ever make her reveal. So...
First...who said it and what exactly did she say, to whom?
Second...Lets play a game...Ideas on what she might have seen??? This should be fun!

Haulover · Post by **Haulover** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 11:30 pm

i'm not certain, but i think it was churchill who was supposed to have seen something that she would never tell even if they threatened to rip her tongue out............i don't remember the source. it sounds like just talk.

i never formed an opinion about what it might have been if true. i think someone once speculated that it might have been a picture of someone, i don't know.

(i'm just trying to help you out in moving your post along--that's all i've got.)

doug65oh · Post by **doug65oh** » Fri Sep 01, 2006 11:36 pm

That's in the witness statements I think - just a sec here... ayup, it is...at page 46. The source is... good grief, McHenry: " I also elicited the fact that one George Wiley, a clerk in the Troy Mill is the one who is authority for the statement that Mrs. Churchill made that she (Mrs. Churchill) said, that there was one thing she saw in the house the day of the murder, that she would never repeat, even if they tore her tongue out."

Oscar · Post by **Oscar** » Sat Sep 02, 2006 12:45 am

The McBain video suggest that Mrs. Churchill might have observed something between Lizzie and Bridget...

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 1:52 pm

I get the impression it was a tangible thing- like an object which she saw. The mind can run wild with possibilities- a letter, a bloodstained garment, or something Lizzie did furtively, something Bridget hid from view, ??? Thinking back to all Mrs. Churchill said and did- she was probably in a great position, being first on the scene , to observe immediately- then later, hovering around in the dining room and kitchen, after the bodies were discovered, she had a chance to absorb it all, listen to others speaking, and connect things when she was not actively involved in the actions of the drama. After the initial shocks, a nosey sort of person would be taking it all in for future reference. Visuals and smells usually really register in a person's mind after an event. Too bad they did not hypnotize some of the early arrivals and ask some pointed questions!

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 2:35 pm

Agnes De Mille writes of her visit to the Borden House in the 1950s. The McGinn's (sp?) say their dog would never go up the front staircase, only the back staircase. A story, or corroborated fact?
Has anyone ever looked beneath the stairs? Could something be hidden there? (I don't know.)

Dogs can hear and smell better than any human, and depend on this for their hunting. (They would never overlook a fox in a pack.)

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 2:51 pm

In many old houses the space under the front stairs would contain space that would be used for storage, a small closet. Or for a staircase going down.
I wonder what, if anything, is under those front stairs?

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 5:25 pm

A closet is under the front stairs where old coats and such were kept on hooks. It is still there and is pretty deep with 2 shelves. That dog would not go up the stairs because its feet and toenails would slip on the uncarpeted stairs and it would tumble down - I don't believe anything "ghostly" kept it downstairs.

nbcatlover · Post by **nbcatlover** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 7:51 pm

I think we are all in agreement that Abby's body had been moved for the photographs. Do you think that Abby's body was desecrated in some way that Mrs. Churchill observed, as first on the scene?

Or perhaps she observed an unseemly gesture towards Lizzie on the part of Dr. Bowen.

What would so shock Mrs. Churchill that she would never reveal it? Was this something that no one else either knew or revealed as well?

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 11:01 pm

I thought only Bridget actually went into the room and saw Abby briefly. Mrs. Churchill also refused to go in and look at Andrew and no wonder!

I recall reading something about Bowen taking Lizzie to church one Sunday when all the family was away, and that was thought scandalous. He certainly was very solicitous of Lizzie immediately after the murders. I always wondered a little . . . .

I thought the one of Abby with the bed pushed to the side, flat out with her elbows out was the first untouched pose. Later, when she was lifted up, she settled into that pose with the rear end up , bunched up on the floor when she was lowered back.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 1:06 am

I think it would be very difficult to figure out Abby's original, untouched position. Moving her started with Bowen, Dolan, the police turning her over somewhat, then replacing her*... the photographer didn't take his pictures until, what, 3:00 PM?

Yes, you are correct Shelley that Mrs. Churchill says she did not enter the guestroom but that Bridget did and your characterization of an all-ears Mrs. Churchill is really well done!

I'm not convinced Mrs. Churchill really said that about something she saw because it was McHery who wrote it!

If I had to guess what Mrs. Churchill saw I fantasize it's a lover's photograph of Morse in Lizzie's bedroom!

The only problem is- was Mrs. Churchill ever in Lizzie's bedroom?

*Remember the comment by Doherty: "My God her face is all smashed in!" ?

Witness Statements, pg. 1:
The Marshal gave him orders to go right up to Mr. Borden's house. He was there by twenty five minutes past eleven o'clock A. M. Just before we got there, Officer Doherty was ahead of us. When we went up stairs the Doctor said Mrs. Borden had fainted with fright. Officers Mullaly and Doherty turned her over. Officer Doherty said “My God her face is all smashed in.”

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 1:18 am

*Remember the comment by Doherty: "My God her face is all smashed in!" ?

Yes I do remember that and thought at the time- in his excitement he must have meant to say her HEAD is all smashed in.

What I can never get over is how Bowen behaved. What doctor would not have gone right over to the body and examined her at once, seeing the blood, the crushed in cranium from the back, etc. And he a Civil War doctor too- accustomed to the worst in gore and carnage.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 1:43 am

Well, we have Mullaly and Doherty *tuning her over* pretty early, in this statement.

I think he saw the blood, the contusions you referred to, and the fact that she had been lying on her face for 2 hours, Lividity -don't know about rigor.

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 11:15 am

Maybe she saw the person that actually killed the Bordens?

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 11:22 am

Shelley @ Tue Sep 12, 2006 1:18 am wrote:*Remember the comment by Doherty: "My God her face is all smashed in!" ?

Yes I do remember that and thought at the time- in his excitement he must have meant to say her HEAD is all smashed in.

What I can never get over is how Bowen behaved. What doctor would not have gone right over to the body and examined her at once, seeing the blood, the crushed in cranium from the back, etc. And he a Civil War doctor too- accustomed to the worst in gore and carnage.

About 40 yrs ago the upstairs people were a nurse and her husband. One day he gashed his arm, and the nurse was hysterical. I calmly poured hydrogen peroxied over the gash while the ambulance was on its way.
Being related to, or a friend, can produce emotions that aren't there usually.
Bowen was a neighbor and family doctor and friend (if not a close friend).

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 11:24 am

Shelley @ Mon Sep 11, 2006 5:25 pm wrote:A closet is under the front stairs where old coats and such were kept on hooks. It is still there and is pretty deep with 2 shelves. That dog would not go up the stairs because its feet and toenails would slip on the uncarpeted stairs and it would tumble down - I don't believe anything "ghostly" kept it downstairs.

I'm sorry, but I sort of remember a dog going up wooden stairs. Most indoor stairs have a covering to protect the wood. Was it different then?
The present condition may have changed from 114 years ago.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 2:35 pm

The dog story was in reference to the McGinn years- and the front stairs have not been carpeted to my knowledge in the past 10 years. There was some talk that something ghostly kept that little dog from going upstairs. I have heard from other people who were present that the dog did not want to go upstairs because its long toenails slipped on the bare wood and it would fall. I have two small dogs I have to carry upstairs for the same reason. These ghostly things which occur at the house frequently have a logical reason- such as the door swinging open in the guest room . The door is not plumb, and when a bus roars in across the street, setting up a vibration, it will sway inward with a creak.

I think someone was going to check about whether or not the stairs were carpeted in the Borden's stay there. I recall the photograph of the radiator and front hall door and seeing no side view of a carpet binding on the treads.

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 3:55 pm

Do they still sell mothballs nowadays? It could have been that the space under the stairs was used for storing wool clothes, and filled with mothballs.
I read that the odor of mothballs is quite offensive to animals like squirrels and can be used to keep them away. Maybe the sensitive nose of a dog would find it offensive while humans wouldn't mind?

Bob Gutowski · Post by **Bob Gutowski** » Fri Sep 15, 2006 4:29 pm

It is gloomy, wet Friday here in Nueva York.

Therefore, I will say that Addie caught Lizzie telling a policeman that she was out in the barn, and then saw her give Bridget a broad wink, with her mouth open in a leer...