Not alot of blood

[snokkums]

Reading and quoting from Blood Evidence (from this website) Dr. Dolan testifies -- the sitting room pages 93 --98:

"There was very little blood on his bosom, his shirt bosom, and of course where the blood ran down that is in the back ofhis cardigan and his clothes, and his clothes were soaked where it had run down his face to the lounge as it lay on the lounge."

That sounds like a good deal of blood to me. At any rate, if what he is saying that there was not that much blood, maybe Andrew didn't get axed as much as the coroner said?
Maybe there was one wound that looked like two when it was actually one.

[Steveads2004]

Billy Borden was a farmer and a renderer. It was said that he was quite good at putting down large animals with a hatchet. His skill would help account for maximum damage with minimal blood. He was also an unrecognized member of a family with money, a very dangerous combination for the strongest person. Never mind a man/boy who had mental problems as it seems he did. No wonder Lizzie sought out Prussic acid to keep handy in case he un-beloved half brother went off on her...that visit to Alice Russell and her fearful rant about "Father has an enemy" fits right in to Billy's next day visit as well.

[Yooper]

We're assuming that there must be a lot of blood spatter when someone is killed with an axe or a hatchet in the manner of the Bordens. To me, this is a baseless assumption because I've seen nothing to substantiate that. If Andrew and Abby had little blood on their clothing as the result of spatter, then why would we expect the murderer to have been covered in blood?

[Kat]

I think both victims clothing was soaked with blood. At least near their wounds. Cast-off is just that- isn't it? Cast away from the body?

[Oscar]

It mayn be possible as the McBain video suggested, that Andrew and Abby were strangled and then their bodies were mutilated afterwards to make it look like a maniac had killed them. They would not have bled much if they were already dead.

[RayS]

If Dr. Dolan was a prosecution witness he may have tailored his testimony to support the prosecution's case. It still goes on today.
Given all the reports in the case, the fact of bloodiness is true.
Head wounds bleed a lot, but they're not necessarily serious (shallow wounds, like from a clubbing). Or so I've heard.

[RayS]

It mayn be possible as the McBain video suggested, that Andrew and Abby were strangled and then their bodies were mutilated afterwards to make it look like a maniac had killed them. They would not have bled much if they were already dead.

Stay away from any "Ed McBain video". He's letting his imagination run away from the known facts in the case.
Stick to the well-proven and documented written records. IMO

[Oscar]

It mayn be possible as the McBain video suggested, that Andrew and Abby were strangled and then their bodies were mutilated afterwards to make it look like a maniac had killed them. They would not have bled much if they were already dead.

Stay away from any "Ed McBain video". He's letting his imagination run away from the known facts in the case.
Stick to the well-proven and documented written records. IMO

Oh, but it's still fun to watch. McBain had a sense of humour. That show featured several different soloutions to the crime, including our dear Billy Borden. I love seeing Lizzie and Bridget alone together in the guest room, apparently after disrobing and leaving their dresses on the staircase for Abby to find!

[RayS]

It mayn be possible as the McBain video suggested, that Andrew and Abby were strangled and then their bodies were mutilated afterwards to make it look like a maniac had killed them. They would not have bled much if they were already dead.

Stay away from any "Ed McBain video". He's letting his imagination run away from the known facts in the case.
Stick to the well-proven and documented written records. IMO

Oh, but it's still fun to watch. McBain had a sense of humour. That show featured several different soloutions to the crime, including our dear Billy Borden. I love seeing Lizzie and Bridget alone together in the guest room, apparently after disrobing and leaving their dresses on the staircase for Abby to find!

I guess the Lizzie and Bridget strip tease makes it unlikely it will ever be on broadcast TV. Where is Justin Timberlake when we really need him?

Anyone who can come up with that scenario must have a screw loose. I can't imagine Lizzie doing something so declasse!!!

[Shelley]

Recently, one keen nurse observer and guest to the house enlightened me on this idea of buckets of gore and blood. I think the quote about the clothing in the cellar from the corpses was "reeking with blood" and there was a mention of brain matter and a segment of skull from Abby (what a grisly visual). Not hard to undersatnd why Morse felt it all should be decently buried in the earth.

The point to consider is this- the immediate result of these attacks -and I mean right during and immediately after the attacks, would not produce quarts of blood all over the place and person of the attacker. Abby lay on the floor bleeding from grave multiple head wounds for anywhere from 1 1/2- 2 1/2 hours depending on when you think she was killed. I'd go for about 2 hours personally. The autopsy done even later.

By the time the autopsy was begun and he had been in his clothing for some length of time, even keeping clotting in mind, there must have been seepage and oozing from such profound wounds- into the carpet, into the arm of the sofa, into the clothing and down the front of the cadaver. But these outpourings were not in that quantity at the time of the attack, nor did the killer have to tread in blood.

If you try a simple experiment of just how long it takes to deliver a blow with a hatchet, it can be done in as little as one second per blow. Especially fast if it is frenzied and the arm does not rise up to the same starting point each time. So the killer would have had short exposure directly over the prone bodies each time. The outpouring of blood and fluids come after.

The first on the scene said Mr. Borden was freely bleeding bright red, and this is when I believe the quantity became an issue and all jumped to the vision of a wild maniac soaked with blood trying to get away down the street with a streaming hatchet. This was maybe 15 minutes or a little more after the killing took place.

[RayS]

We're assuming that there must be a lot of blood spatter when someone is killed with an axe or a hatchet in the manner of the Bordens. To me, this is a baseless assumption because I've seen nothing to substantiate that. If Andrew and Abby had little blood on their clothing as the result of spatter, then why would we expect the murderer to have been covered in blood?

First, you should read all of the Trial Testimony and not just from one witness. The jury heard it all, and so should we.

Anyone who has ever seen a banged head bad would know it bleeds a lot. But a "dead person" whose heart has ceased would not bleed a lot after a few (?) seconds. A sliced skull implies almost instant death compared to a major cut. Blood will leak out from bullet wounds.
That person who is taking a course on criminal justice would provide a better answer, or someone who could quote from relevant textbooks.

Anybody read "Bones" by that Smithsonian investigator?

[Shelley]

Two interesting articles on hatchet attacks and bleeding :

http://starbulletin.com/2005/11/22/news/story01.html

http://www.southcoasttoday.com/daily/02 ... 1local.htm

This link is an analysis of some detail regarding the analysis of the clothing of Ron Goldman, blood patterns, blood flow, etc based on publicly -released information. http://www.wagnerandson.com/oj/bloodgold.htm

[RayS]

Two interesting articles on hatchet attacks and bleeding :

http://starbulletin.com/2005/11/22/news/story01.html

http://www.southcoasttoday.com/daily/02 ... 1local.htm

This link is an analysis of some detail regarding the analysis of the clothing of Ron Goldman, blood patterns, blood flow, etc based on publicly -released information. http://www.wagnerandson.com/oj/bloodgold.htm

An excellent reference!!! That should settle that with an experiment that can't be done legally by any of us here.
(Tho some might like to!)