If Lizzie could come back for 24 hours?

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 11:11 am

If Lizzie could come back for just 24 hours, I wonder what she'd be thinking. What would she think of the internet, computers, airplanes, cars everything.

Bet she would be shocked at some of the things going on today.

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 11:35 am

snokkums @ Tue Sep 12, 2006 11:11 am wrote:...
Bet she would be shocked at some of the things going on today.

Arnold Brown, in his ending, says Lizzie could be part of the "me generation". Actually, drugs were unregulated then, most towns had local brothels, corruption was at an all-time high, etc.
I think she would be shocked by the average morals in these times.
But I could be wrong.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 7:51 pm

One of the *Talking Heads* in the videos or around Conference time, 1992, thought Lizzie would fit right in on OPRAH.

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 10:48 pm

I think about all the technical advances over the past 79 years since Lizzie's death and I conclude, and am quite sure, about what would influence Lizzie the most if she was given 24 hours.

"Number one" would be how well kept and famous number 92 has become, and "Number two" is how run down, neglected and deprived Maplecroft has come to be.

If she drove by her stately home in the 6th hour of her visit, I think she would cut short her stay and give up the remaining 18.

Ms. Jo · Post by **Ms. Jo** » Wed Sep 13, 2006 6:10 am

I would dare to say, she would run inside Maplecroft & demand that it be kept the way it was when she lived there.
She would probably be amazed (& probably secretly ammused ) that she has finally reached a status, she could never achive while she was alive...Look at how many people here "admire" her, for whatever the reason...Yes Miss Lizzie is a most popular gal, still yet.

Stefani · Post by **Stefani** » Wed Sep 13, 2006 9:57 am

I think mbhenty's observation is spot on! Imagine having the house that you "killed for" being left in such disrepair. I feel sorry for the old place and wish someone with insight and money would turn her around. The property is nice and big, but the house is pretty run down. Not being a home owner myself, however, I can't imagine how much money a house like that would take to keep in fine condidtion. Or what it would be like to live in a house that everyone drives by to see when they are in town!

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Wed Sep 13, 2006 2:24 pm

I think that she would love to be on Jerry Springer!!

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 2:34 am

Ms. Jo @ Wed Sep 13, 2006 6:10 am wrote:I would dare to say, she would run inside Maplecroft & demand that it be kept the way it was when she lived there.
She would probably be amazed (& probably secretly ammused ) that she has finally reached a status, she could never achive while she was alive...Look at how many people here "admire" her, for whatever the reason...Yes Miss Lizzie is a most popular gal, still yet.

Well, just as an aside, I personally do not "admire" Lizzie/Lizbeth in any way.
I'm fascinated by her and the murder mystery, but I admire more the prosecutors and her defence lawyer Jennings.

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 8:07 am

Kat @ Thu Sep 14, 2006 2:34 am wrote:
Ms. Jo @ Wed Sep 13, 2006 6:10 am wrote:I would dare to say, she would run inside Maplecroft & demand that it be kept the way it was when she lived there.
She would probably be amazed (& probably secretly ammused ) that she has finally reached a status, she could never achive while she was alive...Look at how many people here "admire" her, for whatever the reason...Yes Miss Lizzie is a most popular gal, still yet.
Well, just as an aside, I personally do not "admire" Lizzie/Lizbeth in any way.
I'm fascinated by her and the murder mystery, but I admire more the prosecutors and her defence lawyer Jennings.

I agree. If this crime had never happened Lizzie would be a long forgotten figure. She was plain, nondescript, not particularly charming ( according to the descriptions written about her), possessing no particular talent or intellect, and didn't do much of anything outstanding in her life. In later years she acquired some social graces and interest in the arts, but, all in all, did nothing to make herself unforgetable.

Jeff · Post by **Jeff** » Thu Sep 14, 2006 9:39 am

I agree that she didn't do too much to make herself unforgettable.
She seemed to be very reclusive,except for giving out candy too little kids, and was very tempermental, but in her will she did give money o various charities and old friends, particularly to animal rescue services.
On the other hand that could have been to try to shake the image of
being a murderer.

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 9:06 am

Jeff @ Thu Sep 14, 2006 8:39 am wrote:I agree that she didn't do too much to make herself unforgettable.
She seemed to be very reclusive,except for giving out candy too little kids, and was very tempermental, but in her will she did give money o various charities and old friends, particularly to animal rescue services.
On the other hand that could have been to try to shake the image of
being a murderer.

I think she was reclusive because Fall river and everyone shunned her. And just because she was really talented or anything doesn't make her boring or unteresting. She probably was very intelligent, just not one to go around showing it off.

Jeff · Post by **Jeff** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 11:40 am

Yes everyone did shun her and that probably caused her to be more of a recluse, but before the murders she was non-communitive at times, especially to new acquaintances so maybe that was another reason she was so lonely.
But what I don't understand is that she had a lot of supporters at her trial.
All the woman from the church and other activities she was involved in
were at the trial supporting her innocence, but after her aquittal they all left her and shunned her. That was very hippocritical

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Sun Sep 17, 2006 2:32 pm

Jeff @ Sun Sep 17, 2006 11:40 am wrote:Yes everyone did shun her and that probably caused her to be more of a recluse, but before the murders she was non-communitive at times, especially to new acquaintances so maybe that was another reason she was so lonely.
But what I don't understand is that she had a lot of supporters at her trial.
All the woman from the church and other activities she was involved in
were at the trial supporting her innocence, but after her aquittal they all left her and shunned her. That was very hippocritical

Hypocritical?
You have only to look at this board and the changes regarding a poster whose name can not be mentioned anymore to see how fickle public opinon it.
But I wonder about those who claimed to have spoken over the telephone. No Caller ID? (That can be disabled or even spoofed.)

bobarth · Post by **bobarth** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 3:15 pm

I think Lizzie would go to the "happiest" place in the world. Disneyworld.

I think she would be pleased with the progress of women rights and would fit right in with this century.
Well, after the initial shock wore off.

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 4:14 pm

I think she would have gotten a kick out of being able to vote. Or even driving a car.

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Mon Sep 18, 2006 8:51 pm

snokkums @ Mon Sep 18, 2006 4:14 pm wrote:I think she would have gotten a kick out of being able to vote. Or even driving a car.

Women were able to vote in the early 1920s in Massachusetts. The new states out west (Wyoming) allowed female suffrage circa 1889 (or earlier).
Lizzie would be shocked by today's laws that require a license to drive a car, or buy a gun, etc. Or the disappearance of local owner-operated businesses. IMO
TV and cable? "That's like radio with pictures."

bobarth · Post by **bobarth** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:31 pm

How about Lizzie in jeans and a T-shirt, I cant even imagine. Maybe even sporting a Red Sox cap.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 1:09 pm

Can't see Lizzie learning to drive a car. At least not while she could afford to hire a chauffer. She certainly had more than a few years to learn but there is no record of her behind the wheel.

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Wed Sep 20, 2006 12:34 pm

Harry @ Tue Sep 19, 2006 1:09 pm wrote:Can't see Lizzie learning to drive a car. At least not while she could afford to hire a chauffer. She certainly had more than a few years to learn but there is no record of her behind the wheel.

But didn't she drive her pony cart before this? Unless her chauffeur was also a bodyguard, as is often the case with VIPs.

Jeff · Post by **Jeff** » Wed Sep 20, 2006 6:11 pm

I heard Lizzie could drive. I was told she had a turn table in her carport
to turn the car around because she did not know how to back up.
It's true she had a chauffer, but also drove herself as well.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Wed Sep 20, 2006 6:35 pm

That's the first I have heard of either - her learning to drive or having a "turn table" on the property.

Can you remember the source of either?

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Wed Sep 20, 2006 10:20 pm

Yes Harry: Could not say whether Maplecorft had a turn table for Lizzie's car inside the garage, but when I was working I discovered 2 or 3 of these "turn tables" in Fall River homes.

One of them was in a carriage house on Maple Street. The Carriage house was later converted into apartments, but I remember working in the garage and it having this large turn table built into the floor of the garage. I remember playing with it at the time, but have forgotten how one would make it turn?

The carriage house, I believe, went along with the Anna Borden House on Rock Street, almost directly across from the Fall River Historical Society.

FRHS is on the South East corner of Maple and Rock, while the Anna Borden House (1917) is on the North West corner. The carriage house, on Maple street, was part of the Anna Borden property I believe. The turn table was covered over when they placed an apartment in the garage back in the 70s. Shame!

These trun tables were just a luxury item, so you didn't need to worry about backing out. By Lizzie's day most cars had a reverse. It just made things easy.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Wed Sep 20, 2006 10:33 pm

Thanks Michael.

I can't imagine that the only place a driver would have to back up would be on their own property.

There's no indication in any of the books or newspapers that I know of that Lizzie drove. I wouldn't consider taking the wheel on a lonely stretch of road for a minute or two as driving if that is what she did.

Anyway, it's an interesting thought - Lizzie driving. Wouldn't want to cut her off. Talk about road rage.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 12:37 am

Lately I've seen accounts that have Lizbeth owning an electric car. Does anyone know anything about this?

doug65oh · Post by **doug65oh** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 1:03 am

Well, offhand I can only say that it's entirely possible. Sources describing early models are a bit tough to find readily due to the present popularity of hybrid cars. I did however, find a little squidge that discusses the early days of automotive technology.

For a few decades in the 1800s, electric engines enjoyed great popularity because they were quiet and ran at slow speeds that were less likely to scare horses and people. By 1899 an electric car designed and driven by Belgian inventor Camille Jenatzy set a record of 105.8810 km/h (65.79 mph).

Early electric cars featured a large bank of storage batteries under the hood. Heavy cables connected the batteries to a motor between the front and rear axles. Most electric cars had top speeds of 48 km/h (30 mph), but could go only 80 km (50 mi) before their batteries needed recharging. Electric automobiles were manufactured in quantity in the United States until 1930.
http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761 ... obile.html

I'll admit, it's not much, but...it is indeed possibly, because the technology did exist - even during the late Victorian period.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 7:05 am

That there were houses that had turn tables I have no doubt. But did Lizzie's?

I think Lizzie driving a car around Fall River would have been noticed. Having a chauffer and maids to attend her every wish were some of the things her money provided and I think she enjoyed playing the part of a pampered lady. Hell, she was spoiled before she had any real money.

There is some evidence that she had an electric car. Newsweek magazine, June 4, 1984, had an article which in part mentioned two new books on the Borden case, Evan Hunter's and Spiering's. One paragraph reads:

"Neither book is likely to sit well with Jordan Fiore, a 64 year-old professor of history at nearby Bridgewater State College, who once saw "Miss Borden," by then an old lady, bundled up in the back seat of an electric car, and whose completing a book of his own.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 10:11 am

I never saw a reference to Lizzie driving herself. I suspect she was from the same mindset of my grandmother's generation- ladies were driven to their destination. I was the first woman in my family to drive a car-my mother, aunts and grandmother would not have thought of it. Shades of Old South and Driving Miss Daisy!

Rebello mentions the garage turntable, which DID exist for Mr. Terry's convenience. There is a cartoon of Mr. Terry behind the wheel while Lizzie is stepping into what looks like a Model T Ford in that book as well. The Sourcebook also has a tender episode where Mr. Terry hit a dog while out and about one day, and Lizzie made sure the owner of the dog, a poor cart peddlar, had the animal's expenses and care paid for. I have heard she was among the first in the city to own a car.

Kent's Source Book mention that Lizzie liked to go for drives out in the country, and she had, before automobiles, a carriage driver whose name escapes me at the moment. Mr. Borden had kept a horse and rig out in the barn before the city imposed taxes on any residence with under 5 horses (which would be considered a farm). Andrew sold the horse when the tax took effect-he rarely needed it being so close to his businesses and Kirby's Livery Stable.

I would not be surprised if Lizzie in her youth, drove a pony cart. That was a ladylike pursuit that even rural ladies could do without raising any eyebrows. Bob Dube still has Lizzie's mounting block- a little stepstool of granite- which she used to step up into her carriage from the street. He has to keep it in the garage as someone would surely steal it nowdays.

william · Post by **william** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 10:16 am

Since Lizzie passed away in 1927, Professor Fiore couldn't have been more than seven years old when he saw her seated in an electric car.
Pretty smart kid to distinguish between an electric and gas powered vehicle. No wonder he grew up to become a professor!

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:17 am

Shelley, not to belabor the point, but do you know where in Len's book it refers to the turntable?

I can find where the garage was constructed in 1911 but no mention of a turntable.

Jeff, thanks for bringing up the topic. Most interesting.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:20 am

Don't have a copy handy where I am situated at the moment but I will see him tomorrow and will ask. Len has been in the garage.
I seem to recall Bob Dube mentioning it also a long time ago.

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 10:08 pm

Yes William, I would like to add a short note about Mr. Foire. Though it was purported that he was working on a book about Lizzie Borden, it is sad to add that he never finished it. Even after he died no one, including his own family, ever found a proof or manuscript. For a man so in tune with the "legend" it is a sad loss not to have his account or point of view.

I guess everyone will need to wait until mine comes out.

Now ! Where did I place my pen?

Jeff · Post by **Jeff** » Fri Sep 22, 2006 10:20 am

Shelley,
I believe the coachman's name was Fred Coggeshall

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If Lizzie could come back for 24 hours?

If Lizzie could come back for 24 hours?

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