The Long Pole

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 4:00 am

Here are some things I cannot seem to reconcile within Lizzie’s statements at the inquest.
Of course, this is not unusual, but I am trying to figure out what these particular statements might have in common and what they might tell us about Lizzie or what might have happened that day.
The “Why” of these statements.
It starts with Lizzie seemingly losing about 30 minutes.
She has Bridget coming in with the long pole and brush around 9 am, not long after she herself got up that morning.
But Bridget didn’t start the windows until 9:30- or at least didn’t go to the barn to get the pole until 9:30 (approx., of course).
The pole was kept in the barn, yet Lizzie says she saw Bridget with it at the back door.
Bridget said she went out around 9 to throw up.

Also, Lizzie said she did not see Bridget washing the windows. I don't know how she could have seen Bridget with the pole in the house.

Inquest
Lizzie
58(17)
Q. Where was your father when you came down Thursday morning?
A. Sitting in the sitting room in his large chair, reading the Providence Journal.
Q. Where was your mother? Do you prefer me to call her Mrs. Borden?
A. I had as soon you called her mother. She was in the dining room with a feather duster dusting.
Q. When she dusted did she wear something over her head?
A. Sometimes when she swept, but not when dusting.
Q. Where was Maggie?
A. Just come in the back door with the long pole, brush, and put the brush on the handle, and getting her pail of water; she was going to wash the windows around the house. She said Mrs. Borden wanted her to.
........

59(16)
Q. What was the next thing that happened after you got down?
A. Maggie went out of doors to wash the windows and father came out into the kitchen and said he did not know whether he would go down to the post office or not. And then I sprinkled some handkerchiefs to iron.
.......
Q. Did you fasten the door after him?
A. No sir.
Q. Did Maggie?
A. I don't know. When she went up stairs she always locked the door; she had charge of the back door.
Q. Did she go out after a brush before your father went away?
A. I think so.

Bridget
Preliminary
65

Q. She partook of her breakfast, what were you doing then?
A. I went out in the back yard when she was eating her breakfast.

Q. Where did she come from?
A. The sitting room.

Q. Where were you?
A. At the sink.

Q. Did you not say yesterday afternoon, the first you saw of her, was when she was there in the screen door, when you were coming back with the poll (sic) for the brush?
A. No Sir.

Q. That is not so, at all events?
A. No Sir.

Q. The first you saw of her you were at the kitchen sink?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. Cleaning up the breakfast dishes?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. She came in there?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. You had not then got your brush or pail or pole to wash the windows?
A. No Sir.

Q. She did not then come to the screen door first, as you were coming in, and ask you what you were going to do, and talk about leaving it open, or fastening it?
A. No Sir.

Q. When was that?
A. About an hour later, I should judge, or probably half an hour.

Q. Which do you say?
A. I could not state the time.

Q. Your first impression was an hour?
A. Yes Sir.
.....
--Bridget went outside to vomit.
Then she came back in and finished her dishes and was not yet ready to wash windows:

Q. Did you go out near the barn?
A. I went out near the pear tree.

Q. Did you go out into the barn then?
A. No Sir.

Q. You went into the barn to get the pole?
A. That was later.

Page 67

Q. Now you came back in again. Had Lizzie had her breakfast then?
A. No Sir.

Q. Had you finished washing your dishes?
A. No Sir.

Q. You came back and washed your dishes?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. What was Lizzie doing?
A. I do not know. She was not in the kitchen that I remember.
....
Q. Was she having her breakfast when you went in the back yard, and were taken sick to your stomach?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. When you went out in the back yard, and were sick to your stomach, somewhat, Morse had gone?
A. Yes Sir.
.....

Q. Then what did you do?
A. Got a brush and went out of doors; went out in the back yard and got a big handle out of the barn.

Q. You went into the barn?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. Wherebouts in the barn did you go, in one of the stalls, or up stairs?
A. Right facing when you go in the door.

Q. In one of the stalls?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. You went in there and got that?
A. Yes Sir. I came out, and got a pail of water out of the barn, and went and began to wash the windows.

Q. You did not come in at all?
A. No Sir.

Q. You said you had some talk with Lizzie at the screen door?
A. Yes, as I was going out with the pail, she spoke to me.

Q. You spoke to her as you were going out, and not when you came back?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. Tell us about that.
A. Miss Lizzie asked me if I was going to wash windows. I said yes.

Q. Where was that?
A. That was at the back door; I was outside, and she inside.
_______

--Lizzie also says that Bridget went upstairs, and that Andrew did not go upstairs.
She doesn’t say which upstairs.
Also note (above) where Lizzie states about Bridget:
“When she went up stairs she always locked the door; she had charge of the back door.”
I’m not sure if Lizzie is implying the time she says Bridget went upstairs before Andrew came home when she talks about the door.
So what would Bridget go upstairs for during the time Andrew was gone?
And why is Lizzie so sure Andrew did Not go upstairs?
If we pretend that Lizzie is being entirely truthful here, what would this mean?

Lizzie
Inquest
68(25)
A. My father did not go away I think until somewhere about 10, as near as I can remember; he was with me down stairs.
Q. A large portion of the time after your father went away, and before he came back, so far as you know, you were alone in the house?
A. Maggie had come in and gone up stairs.
.....

Q. Did he not go up stairs to his own room before he sat down in the sitting room?
A. I did not see him go.
Q. He had the key to his room down there?
A. I don't know whether he had it; it was kept on the shelf.
Q. Don’t you remember he took the key and went into his own room and then came back?
85(42)
A. No, sir.
Q. You don’t remember anything of that kind?
A. No, sir; I do not think he did go up stairs either.
Q. You will swear he did not?
A. I did not see him.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 11:20 pm

I recently heard the testimony by reading aloud.
My ears registered things I had not really dwelled upon by reading only with my eys.
I'm not saying any of this is new- just that it is so incongruous and the 2 girls can't both be right- Lizzie and Bridget.
These statements are opposed to each other.

Can anyone assume Lizzie innocent and help explain her statement?
It could mean that Bridget was up to no good. Not only not washing windows but doing something upstairs.

Airmid · Post by **Airmid** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 4:16 am

Tough questions, Kat!
First, I wouldn't expect that the testimonies of the two girls would match perfectly. People's memories are so often faulty when they are trying to recollect exactly what happened some days ago. And in this case there are added difficulties too: Lizzie had been on morphine for a week, and Bridget is often pretty sloppy with her answers. As we discussed before, Bridget is inclined to talk about her habits rather than what happened that specific day, and I also have the impression that sometimes she's too eager to please: i.e. answers with what she thinks that the person who questions her wants to hear.

So I think you're right: something is wrong about Bridgets version of what happened that morning. In her trial testimony, Bridget says the following:

- She gets down stairs at 6:15 (Trial 205)
- She starts the kitchen fire, makes breakfast, and folds up the clothes that were on the clothes horse (Trial 206)
- About 7:15, the family sits down for breakfast (Trial 221). Bridget is around in the kitchen, possibly cleaning up things etc. (Trial 221)
- About 7:45, Bridget has her breakfast (Trial 222)
- About 8:00-8:15, Bridget clears away the dishes and starts washing them (Trial 222/223)
- A little before 9:00, Lizzie comes down. Bridget is still doing dishes. (Trial 224)
- Bridget goes out to vomit, returns to the house and finishes the dishes (Trial 225/226)
- About 9:00, Mrs. Borden asks her to wash the windows (Trial 227)
- Bridget cleans the stove and puts the dishes away(Trial 228)
- About 9:30, Bridget lets down the windows, gets a pail from the cellar, a brush from the kitchen, and the pole from the barn(Trial 228/229)

(When Bridget was not clear about the time, I filled in the time from the Chronology.)

Even allowing for a large pile of dishes to wash, since she might not have had time to wash the dishes from the previous day's supper, she took an awful long time to wash them. So I would say Lizzie is not the only one who "loses" 30 minutes.
I think we should try to shift Bridgets schedule 30 minutes forward. That fits with Lizzie's account of the events that morning. I can't quite oversee what that would mean for the rest of Bridget's schedule, though.

I have always had the impression that Bridget got her first pail of water from the sink in the house. I don't have the Preliminary, and this is what is in the Trial version (p. 229, Bridget is speaking):
I found a brush which was to wash the windows with. I filled my pail with water in the sink and took it out doors. As I was outside the backdoor Lizzie appeared in the back entry, and says, "Maggie, are you going to wash the windows?" I says, "Yes." I said, "You needn't lock the door; I will be out around here; but you can lock it if you want to; I can get the water in the barn."
So I would think that Lizzie was right on this point also.

I can't see any reason (yet) to think that Bridget was up to malice. I rather think she was simply mistaken.
You're raising some other points in your post too, I'll look into those soon!

Airmid.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 1:11 pm

Airmid @ Mon Sep 25, 2006 3:16 am wrote:
Even allowing for a large pile of dishes to wash, since she might not have had time to wash the dishes from the previous day's supper, she took an awful long time to wash them. So I would say Lizzie is not the only one who "loses" 30 minutes.

Airmid.

This task was more tedious than it is today. Maybe we should try and figure out just how long the method would have taken, and what the methods used actually were. I don't think we can guess at how long it should have taken unless we have some idea of this information.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 6:06 pm

There is some missing time from Bridget too- that's true. In my timeline I think I have her missing about 20 minutes.
I'm not sure what Radin has. I didn't use him- I did my own.

I only recently noticed Lizzie's actual missing time if she says she saw the long pole, since that was kept in the barn. Once Bridget got that pole from the barn, she had everything she needed to start on the outside windows, and not have to re-enter the house.

I keep getting clues from Lizzie that she did not know about being able to tell the difference in time of death between Andrew and Abby.
As I mentioned before- if Lizzie thinks they died closer together in time, or wants people to think that- then she didn't know it could be measured.
I had once thought maybe she had put the idea into Dr. Bowen's head that after Andrew died that the murderer chased Abby up the stairs and she died of fright. Or that Abby died of fright in some way.
But if there was a will by either parent, the order of the 2 deaths would be most important. So what this mismatched timing is tending to show me is that Lizzie did not know this.

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 7:19 pm

I need an explanation on the pole that Bridget was caring. Is it one of those kinds of poles that window washers us with the sponge on one side and a squege(sp) on the other side.

I see what your problem is though Kat. Lizzie did lose 30 minutes.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 8:22 pm

To wash dishes for 3 people, including pans would not take too long- but boiling the water might take a while on top the stove to wash them in. Once again, Bridget did not seem to want to give the impression she napped, dozed, sat down or was lazy in any way. That "I fixed my room for 10 minutes" shows she did not want to appear to be cheating her employers by shirking. After vomiting, most people are shaken and stressed for a time. She may have sat down under the tree for 10 minutes until her insides calmed down, then went and rinsed out her mouth-sounds like what most folks do in the circumstance.

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 9:21 pm

Robin, I picture Bridget getting something like this:

My one grandmother had something like this, she would use the brush without the handle to scrub her floors clean on her hands and knees. She also used it as a broom of sorts and would screw in the wooden pole for that use.

Kat, Lizzie plays games with the time on the murder day. She has Bridget washing windows earlier than Bridget says she did. Lizzie also has her father leaving later that morning than he did and that she started ironing earlier than she actually did. I wonder if it is just general confusion, not really checking the time for these actions or she hoped to gain something by making her own timeline for the day?

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 10:41 pm

Once we speculated on the thought that maybe Lizzie wanted to make the murders seem closer together, and that she was with her father until nearly 10, making Andrew an alibi, and making it less time ALONE in that house with a dead body.

She also says he was not gone long- maybe 30 minutes until he got back, and with Bridget saying she came in around 10:15, she would have only made herself to be alone in the house 15 minutes before her Father came home.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 6:03 am

I was beginning to wonder if Lizzie could read a clock face.
Harry tells me that she probably could.
Remember when we figured out we were assuming Bridget could tell time?

As was noted here earlier, people were more lax with time back then if they didn't need to know the exact time.
But 20 to 30 minutes is a big block of time. Especially if some think Lizzie could kill Andrew and clean up in 30 minutes.

I think Bridget came in later than 10:15 tho.
From the prelim and my timeline:

10:20 a.m. — Bridget "got (back) in the house". (pg. 17).

"Got the hand basin and went in the sitting room, and started to wash the sitting room windows inside." (pg. 18).

"Part of 1 window washed when Mr. Borden came." (pg. 18).

10:30- 10:40 a.m. — Mr. Borden at the front door. (pg. 19).

--If Bridget came in at 10:20 approx and Andrew came home at 10:40 approx then it took Bridget 20 minutes to gather her few things and wash 1/2 a window inside- whereas outside she supposedly did all the windows and was rinsing the parlour window in 30 minutes.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 7:41 am

If Mather's trial testimony is correct Andrew was on South Main at 10:40. From the trial, page 187:

"Q. Now can you tell me what time it was when Mr. Borden went away from that store?
A. About twenty minutes of eleven.
Q. Did you consult any time-piece at or about the time he went away?
A. I looked at City Hall clock."

Then on page 188+ on cross-examination:

"Q. When did you look at the clock?
A. Twenty minutes to eleven.
Q. I know. But I mean when with reference to Mr. Borden. Where was he when you looked at the clock?
A. I couldn't say whether it was the time he left or the time he came there; it was about that time.
Q. Then it might have been that he got there twenty minutes of eleven?
A. It might have been.
Q. Well, to the best of your recollection that was so, wasn't it?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. To the best of your recollection, 10:40, twenty minutes before eleven, was when he came up?
A. Not when he came up, but while he was around there. That is what I meant."

So even if he left at 10:40 (the earliest) we have to allow him several minutes to walk to 92 Second, go around to the side, try opening the front door and finally gain admittance.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 8:16 am

That sounds about right. I think Bridget in her witness statement mentions 10: 50 at one point. Yes?

On a non-related topic, what does it mean when the board prompt says Debug Mode?Avatar still will not upload a photo. Do we have bugs?

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 8:19 am

That's a new one to me about the avatar. Can you send it to me as an e-mail attachment?

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 8:20 am

Just musing- if 10:50 was right, then there was not much time for Andrew to do all he did upstairs and down, Bridget to scuttle up to the third floor and flop out and drift off to the chiming clock- and certainly not enough time to start ironing hankies, stop ironing, race out to the yard, pick up pears, shinny up to the loft, pull over boards, hang out maybe 20 minutes, make the discovery just after 11 (by the city hall clock) of the body, run to the back stairs to call Bridget AND have the call come in to the police when it did. Not enough time. Andrew must have died the instant Bridget was out of sight. Amazing the killer also did not stop and have a whack at Lizzie too.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 8:38 am

There's definitely time conflicts between Lizzie's and Bridget's versions.

If we assume Lizzie called Bridget between 11:05 to 11:10 and count back the 20 minutes Lizzie was allegedly in the barn we get 10:45 to 10:50.

If we take the earlier time, 10:45, then Lizzie would have had to have left almost immediatly after Andrew arrived. The 10:50 time gives her 5 minutes with him.

But Bridget says she talked with Lizzie just before going upstairs. I don't think she went up at 10:45 or 10:50 but probably somewhere about 10:55.

If Lizzie left at 10:55 for the barn and stayed 20 minutes that makes her arrival back at 11:15. We know that's not right because Hilliard received the call at 11:15.

If we assume Bridget going upstairs at 10:55, then if Lizzie was in the barn at all, it wasn't for 20 minutes, more like 10 to 15. From 10:55 to somewhere between 11:05 and 11:10.

My head is spinning with all these times.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 10:01 am

I think you are right Dr. Harry. Now, can you explain why the ladies had to make tea and toast (in a quantity) over at Phebe Bowen's house for the "faint" Lizzie draped on her lounge? Could it be that the police wanted to have a good rummage amongst the ashes in the Borden stove? Since something was still burning when Dr. B threw in his Emma note- I wonder why Lizzie's Swooning Snack was not prepared in her own kitchen? I suspect what was truly needed by all was a stiff shot of whiskey!

doug65oh · Post by **doug65oh** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 11:44 am

If we take the earlier time, 10:45, then Lizzie would have had to have left almost immediatly after Andrew arrived. The 10:50 time gives her 5 minutes with him.

But Bridget says she talked with Lizzie just before going upstairs. I don't think she went up at 10:45 or 10:50 but probably somewhere about 10:55.

Sounds like you're right on track within just a minute or two, Harry. I seem to recollect somewhere (the somewhere being the only question I can't answer at the moment) a statement by Bridget that shortly after she went up to her room, she heard the city clock strike.

Whoops, I found it - in the trial transcript at pg. 239:

Q. When is the first occasion that you had to notice the time after you got up in your bedroom?
A. I heard the bells outdoors ring, the city hall bell, as I suppose it was, and I looked
at my clock and it was eleven o'clock. My clock was in the room.
Q. Were you lying on the bed at that time?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Had you become drowsy at all, or anything of that sort?
A. I don't remember; I know I wasn't drowsing or sleeping.
Q. Have you a judgment as to how long you were there between the time you reached
your bed and the time that the city hall clock struck eleven?
A. Well, I might be there---of course I can't tell, I didn't notice the time when I went to my room, but by my judgment I think I was there three or four minutes.
Q. Did you get drowsy at all up to the time you were called; didn't you go to sleep at all?
A. Why, I don't think I did.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 11:55 am

I'm going with that scenario for the time line too- it sounds right on target. If we are to believe Lizzie she must have been on rollerblades, helping him off with his jacket and shoes (not true), checking her flats, chatting about the note, the mail, etc. whiling away the time gabbing to Maggie about the sale at Sargent's, poking up the fire in the stove, having a go at the hankies, all while Andrew made a trip to read something in the diningroom, go up back, come down and put on his sweater, etc.- 5 minutes? Not likely. This might be a good thing to time out at the house if I could get a few folks to help!

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 1:37 am

Pages are from Prelim.
Times based on context of testimony within framework:
10:30- 10:40 a.m. — Mr. Borden at the front door. (pg. 19).

"It might be later than half past ten; I could not tell."- Bridget. (pg. 19).
- - -
In the trial, here is Bridget, just before “Re-direct:”
Q. Have you any idea what time it was when Mr. Borden came into the house?
A. I cannot fix the time, but I think by my time then, the work I did, it must have been around half past ten.
__

I didn't find Bridget giving a time for Andrew's arrival in The Witness Statements.
The other person I go by is Mrs. Dr. Kelly.
I seem to think doctors or doctors wives have a better sense of time but that is my opinion.

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 4:25 am

That might be a great experiment for Shelley to conduct at the house; how long would it take for someone to go up the back stairs to Bridget's room? I think Bridget must have taken her time going up the two flights of stairs, she was tired from her work and wasn't feeling well. I think that must come into consideration as to what time Bridget left the kitchen and when she arrived in her room the 3 to 4 minutes before the 11:00 o'clock chime.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 4:30 am

Harry might know the answer to that one! He had to go up and down those stairs quite a few times- he stayed in Bridget's room.

Personally I found that by just keeping going, and looking down at my feet I could go all the way up without too much exertion. I guess that's inertia? And fortitude.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 7:54 am

I'll have to find a willing YOUNGER person without bad knees and arthritis which lets me and Eleanor out. I bet LeeAnn will fill in. The last time I timed myself going from the bottom of the kitchen steps to Bridget's room, it took 38 seconds, but I tend to huff and puff and gasp a lot on the second run! Thank goodness for hand rails.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 7:58 am

When looking at specific times I try totally to ignore the statements or testimony of Lizzie and Bridget. As to the former, I have great suspicions of and for the latter less but still some suspicion.

In my calculations I use two anchors, which in both cases the time was checked. One, Mather saying Andrew was on South Main at 10:40. Two, the phone call to the police station at 11:15. Mather's time is especially valuable as he can be considered a totally neutral witness.

I think you have to work within those parameters. All else is based on what people thought the time was.

Try this for yourself. Without looking at a clock take a guess at what you think the exact time is and see how accurate you are. I just did and I was 19 minutes off.

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 2:35 pm

Harry @ Thu Sep 28, 2006 7:58 am wrote:When looking at specific times I try totally to ignore the statements or testimony of Lizzie and Bridget. As to the former, I have great suspicions of and for the latter less but still some suspicion.

In my calculations I use two anchors, which in both cases the time was checked. One, Mather saying Andrew was on South Main at 10:40. Two, the phone call to the police station at 11:15. Mather's time is especially valuable as he can be considered a totally neutral witness.

I think you have to work within those parameters. All else is based on what people thought the time was.

Try this for yourself. Without looking at a clock take a guess at what you think the exact time is and see how accurate you are. I just did and I was 19 minutes off.

"The Devil is in the details."
Certainly 30 minutes (5 min for Andy to walk back) isn't enough time to clean up or hide a weapon and bloody clothes. I don't believe it was planned. Lizzie went on the back stairs just after finding the body (11:05?)

There is also the test of why the ruling class fixed the trial to free Lizzie. THAT is the "unusual action of the dog in the night". IMO

10:45 Andy arrives home
10:47 enters front door
10:50 Bridget goes upstairs
10:55 Lizzie goes outside in the back yard for privacy
11:00 Andy meets his maker.
11:05 Lizzie hears "groan" and returns.
11:10 Lizzie finds body, goes out back and Mrs Churchill is notified
11:15 call to police (about 1200 feet, 1/4 mile away).

Since I wasn't there with a videotape and stopwatch, that is the best I can do in reconstructing the crime scene.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 3:18 am

I didn't find a *Bridget 10:50* which was suggested twice. If someone can find that it would be helpful to Shelley's recall.

I'm willing to split-the-difference at 10:45, as Andrew's arrival time.

Airmid · Post by **Airmid** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 3:43 am

Just a reminder:
If Lizzie killed Andrew, she was pretty much in control of time. I mean, that she called out to Bridget when she was ready to do so, and not because some event forced her. Bridget wouldn't normally be downstairs until 11:30, so she had another quarter of an hour if she needed it.
Of course, if Lizzie didn't do it things are a bit different!

Airmid.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Fri Sep 29, 2006 8:40 am

She was also in control of time for Abby- even more so. With Bridget outside, and not in the habit of going up to the guestroom as that area was not in her area of work, Lizzie was in control of space and time. She was able to anticipate everything except when her father would come home.