Mirror

Smudgeman · Post by **Smudgeman** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 10:48 am

If Lizzie did commit the murders, don't you think it would be necessary to have a mirror handy to make sure she looked presentable afterwards? I am sure she had a full length mirror in her room, but what about the rest of the house? Does anybody know how many mirrors there were, and where they were located? I am really interested to know if there was a mirror down cellar. If Lizzie did kill Andrew, I think it would have been more convenient to go down cellar to clean up, rather than dash back up to her room. A mirror would be vital to check for any blood splatter. Any thoughts on this?

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 11:48 am

There was a mirror in the sitting room. My guess was that it was to the right of the big closet that goes under the stairs as that is where bonnets and outerwear were kept and it would have been handy there. . If Andrew went to his barber to shave, he may not have needed one in his room or over the sinkroom sink. There is visibly a mirror in the guestroom. I would bet Lizzie had one in her room and Abby in her room. Most dressers of the time came with a detached mirror or mirror unit which sat on top the dresser.

There might have been a parlor mirror, almost certainly a mirror in the entry hall in front -either on the wall or part of a hatstand unit. Maybe there might have been a small one in the basement in the watercloset room, although it had no sink in it- just the sink in the laundry room in the cellar. Good question!

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 2:22 pm

Smudgeman @ Thu Oct 05, 2006 10:48 am wrote:If Lizzie did commit the murders, don't you think it would be necessary to have a mirror handy to make sure she looked presentable afterwards? I am sure she had a full length mirror in her room, but what about the rest of the house? Does anybody know how many mirrors there were, and where they were located? I am really interested to know if there was a mirror down cellar. If Lizzie did kill Andrew, I think it would have been more convenient to go down cellar to clean up, rather than dash back up to her room. A mirror would be vital to check for any blood splatter. Any thoughts on this?

Yes. The lack of blook spatters or any disarray in her dress or hair say she didn't do it. There wasn't enough time to clean up after Andy's death.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 2:27 pm

"Yes. The lack of blook spatters or any disarray in her dress or hair say she didn't do it. There wasn't enough time to clean up after Andy's death."

Of course, if you do not entertain the notion that Lizzie could have possibly done it, then you would insist that there was not enough time. Actually, if she had covered the dress-or even if she did not- there is time to both change the dress and wash your hands. I have proven that numerous times, by changing my dress, changing into a skirt and blouse AND washing my hands, and making a trip to to the cellar before calling upstairs to Bridget. I would be happy to be filmed and timed with a witness! (I shall, however keep on my petticoats and camisole!)

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 2:31 pm

I think the Elizabeth Montgomery version has done a lot of damage, not only to the character of some of the individuals in the story, but in promoting the presumed but totally unsubstantiated notion that Lizzie had to strip bare naked, let down her hair, and pitch into her victims like a wildcat seething uncontrollably and swinging that hatchet all over the room, going downstairs and standing in a hip bath each time, then dressing from her corset up all over again TWICE in one morning and artistically re-arranging her coiffure- which frankly, I have always found ludicrous.

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 2:43 pm

Shelley @ Thu Oct 05, 2006 2:27 pm wrote:"Yes. The lack of blook spatters or any disarray in her dress or hair say she didn't do it. There wasn't enough time to clean up after Andy's death."

Of course, if you do not entertain the notion that Lizzie could have possibly done it, then you would insist that there was not enough time. Actually, if she had covered the dress-or even if she did not- there is time to both change the dress and wash your hands. I have proven that numerous times, by changing my dress, changing into a skirt and blouse AND washing my hands, and making a trip to to the cellar before calling upstairs to Bridget. I would be happy to be filmed and timed with a witness! (I shall, however keep on my petticoats and camisole!)

Edmond Locard noted the fact (Locard's Principle) that a criminal always leaves some clue behind and carries away some evidence from the scene of the crime. "A perfect crime" isn't possible because of the emotions and anger that create the crime.
But Locard presumably never had to deal with professional hit-men, stone-cold killers who do it with no more emotion that mailing a letter.

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 2:46 pm

Shelley @ Thu Oct 05, 2006 2:31 pm wrote:I think the Elizabeth Montgomery version has done a lot of damage, not only to the character of some of the individuals in the story, but in promoting the presumed but totally unsubstantiated notion that Lizzie had to strip bare naked, let down her hair, and pitch into her victims like a wildcat seething uncontrollably and swinging that hatchet all over the room, going downstairs and standing in a hip bath each time, then dressing from her corset up all over again TWICE in one morning and artistically re-arranging her coiffure- which frankly, I have always found ludicrous.

The correct word is nude not naked. Unclothed is nude, unarmed is naked.
Yes, a lot of people make this mistake so in everyday usage it means the same.
Did they also censor out Uncle John (or Emma) to cut costs? Films are dramatic entertainment, not history.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 2:46 pm

Considering the many unsolved crimes in the annals of history- I would say a great many people have gotten away with a great many things. Today, with the proliferation of CSI programs on television, and numerous books on forensics, even the average person can find out how not to leave tracks.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 2:50 pm

No, old friend, I will stay with naked, thanks.

Main Entry: na·ked
Function: adjective
Pronunciation: 'nA-k&d, esp Southern 'ne-k&d
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English nacod; akin to Old High German nackot naked, Latin nudus, Greek gymnos
1 : not covered by clothing : NUDE 2 : devoid of customary or natural covering : BARE

Smudgeman · Post by **Smudgeman** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 3:13 pm

Shelley @ Thu Oct 05, 2006 10:48 am wrote:There was a mirror in the sitting room. My guess was that it was to the right of the big closet that goes under the stairs as that is where bonnets and outerwear were kept and it would have been handy there. . If Andrew went to his barber to shave, he may not have needed one in his room or over the sinkroom sink. There is visibly a mirror in the guestroom. I would bet Lizzie had one in her room and Abby in her room. Most dressers of the time came with a detached mirror or mirror unit which sat on top the dresser.

There might have been a parlor mirror, almost certainly a mirror in the entry hall in front -either on the wall or part of a hatstand unit. Maybe there might have been a small one in the basement in the watercloset room, although it had no sink in it- just the sink in the laundry room in the cellar. Good question!

Thanks Shelley. Do you know how big the mirror was in the sitting room? I am asking, because I would think Lizzie would want to see her entire body in the mirror, make sure there were no specks of blood or anything to suggest that she had been in a struggle. My mother has one of those large standing mirrors mounted on a wood frame. That is what I would expect the girls would have in their rooms. I'm still wondering about a mirror in the cellar though, hmmmm......

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 3:26 pm

Unfortunately, nobody mentioned either where the mirror was on which wall or how big it was. I wonder if maybe the girls had a full-length mirror in their dress closet? That might be the logical place, and it is a good-sized room, with the dresses hanging on hooks around the perimeter. Of course, from being a skirt wearer myself, it is also easy to unhook a skirt, slide it around and check the back for a stain while still wearing it-this I have done many times .

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 6:33 pm

I found the mirror in the trial- in the sitting room, by Dolan:
Page 941

There was the usual furniture of a sitting room.

Q. There were chairs?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. A mirror?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. A table?
A. There were two tables, one against the south wall between the two windows, and a small centre table pretty near the sofa, about the centre of the room.

Q. How far from the sofa?
A. I could not tell you, sir.

--I was looking for the designation of the handleless hatchet being new or not new- and found this mirror.
Good call Shelley!

I think a mirror might have been above the mantle.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 6:50 pm

Oddly enough, I just asked Len about that mirror last week. He seemed to feel that if the mirror had been over the fireplace, it would surely have been mentioned especially because the topic of Mr. Borden being able to look up or open his eyes from the sofa and see the murderer sneaking up in the mirror might have been a possibility. He seemed to go with it being on that smallish wall to the right of the closet in the corner so as to be readily accessible when someone put on a hat or bonnet from the closet, it could be adjusted in the mirror nearby. The only other possible place would be on the wall between the two south windows. I am not sure which wall actually-and I wish I knew and I wish that photographer had taken more photos from different angles as the sitting room is the room I am working on now, finding some items to fit the descriptions.

On my list is a kersone oil lamp, black fringed doily, tidies, vintage books and 2 tables of the period , one for the center of the room and one for between the south wall windows of the period and a fireplace fender and screen.. I have found a "ringer" for that white ironstone vase on the bottom shelf of the tripod table by the parlor door. We have looked for YEARS for perfume bottles matching the two on the guestroom dresser.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 7:15 pm

Ok, but the question is here was "usual furniture of a sitting room?" Then asked "A mirror?"

The placement you guys are giving for the mirror sounds unusual.
That's why I thought it might be above the mantle. That is more usual.
That mantle is high, according to you guys, so the mirror -if placed there- might be too high to be considered useful in questioning as to what it would reflect during Andrew's murder. Besides who would we ask that question of? There was not a witness.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 7:29 pm

I agree placing a mirror above a mantel in most parlors was usual. They were often long, filling in the space pretty well across. The sitting room being a less formal room, it may still have had a mirror over the mantel. We shall never know the answer to this one. When I asked Len about it, he said he felt, had there been a mantel mirror, probably the question would have been posed that a killer would have been taking a chance in case Andrew opened his eyes, the reflection of a killer might have been seen. I will have fun testing this out tomorrow, whether lying on that sofa, anything could be seen at that level in a mirror above the mantel. LeeAnn bought a fancy mirror this summer and we wondered where to put it. It ended up in the parlor since we were unsure about this over the mantel thing. I think Len opted for near the closet, as a purely practical place for a mirror to be -near the closet where hats and things were kept. I will give an all points bulletin from the hayloft tomorrow night on the mirror issue

! When in doubt TRY IT OUT!

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 11:25 pm

Well, in a way, I have tried it out.
I recently bought a mirror to go above my mantle in my family room. I didn't hang it tho, it is standing, leaning against the brick, on top of the mantle. (The *lean* is a very small degree- I have a heavy urn there, to the side to help brace it).

The top of the mantle is 62" above the floor.
I can't see anything of the room in the reflection, from a standing position- but I am 5'3". I doubt I could see anything other than the ceiling in a lying down position.
When I placed it there I was surprised at how little was reflected of the room.

What did you say was the height of the house mantle?
Thanks!

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Sat Oct 07, 2006 8:27 am

I think that she had enough time to clean herself up, even if there were mirrors in the house, as I am sure there were. But keep in mind, she had a maid named Bridget that might have helped her out to get herself cleaned up.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Oct 07, 2006 7:37 pm

If Lizzie did it- she must have somehow have had enough time to clean up and be confident in her appearance regardless of how or who helped.
But Bridget, I'd think, would be a bit of a mess. She says her dress was damp from window washing- I imagine her hair in a bit of disarray after that exertion plus her lying down would make her a bit disheveled. I doubt she had time to straighten her hair or clothing after getting up from bed when Lizzie called. And a bit later when she was sent out the second time she grabbed a hat and shawl - I don't think she had time to straighten her appearance- and she'd have her hair a bit messy from sticking on a hat quickly and yanking it off again - yet she was not suspected. It's something that's hard to understand.

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