The Bordens in Chicago (Pre-1892)

[sguthmann]

I've been reading through the archives regarding the Borden family's time in Chicago...and am not finding much that is "known fact." Have we been able to narrow down the years they would have been there with any relative degree of certainty? Has it been learned where/with whom they lived? Do we know for certain if Emma attended school there (if so, where?)? Do we know where Lizzie attended Sunday School?

I'm asking for assistance from all in summarizing what is known and can be proven about the Bordens and their time in Chicago/Illinois.
Please note, for the purpose of this topic, please include only info on the AJ Borden family members in Chicago/Illinois pre-1892 - not info about Lizzie's World's Fair 1893 visit.

THANKS!!

[Kat]

I wrote a story about their train trip to Chicago, based on sources I attribute in The Hatchet, Vol. 2, #6, called "The Visit."
Do you have that issue? It starts page 46.

[sguthmann]

Ach, alas I have not seen the article, Kat. But I am currently in Chicago and wondered about local sources of information that might add to what is known...which appears to be very little?

[Kat]

Well, the Livermore's were living in Chicago with a Pastorship at the Universalist Church there. They had been friends of the Bordens. Daniel had been a Pastor in Fall River, 1845, and he and Mary Livermore married the same year Andrew married Sarah, all in Fall River.
Lizzie supposedly went to Sunday School while there in Chicago, so I theorized it was at the Livermore's church.

By 1868, which is when I placed "The Visit," in Girard, Illinois, lived Anthony Morse and his second wife; his children John Vinnicum Morse, Fernando Morse, Selecta, Alverado and Arabella- also supposedly a new child, Sarah.

Girard is pretty far down I-55 toward St. Louis.

Uncle Morse checked into an hotel in Hastings with a Mr. Rappal. I've always wondered about that sign in book- whether it still exists.

Rebello, pg. 70
"While in Iowa, John Morse lived or boarded with various people and their families. In 1870, he resided with the Davidson family. By 1880, the Davidsons lived with John Morse. On Monday, May 10, 1886, John Morse along 'with Rappal' of Hastings and John Gennung [Genung] of Hastings, registered at the Foster House, a local hotel in Hastings. 'L. L. Rappal" Chicago, [Illinois]' was written under their names in the register."

I think Cynthia, in the Heritage Section here found that Rappal was big in meat packing?

[sguthmann]

Thanks for filling me in, Kat. Very interesting, and was not aware of the Livermores. Your story, "The Visit," does it indeed deal with one "visit" and not an extended residence of the Bordens in/near Chicago? The statement about Lizzie having attended Sunday School in Chicago and being "punctual in attendance" leads me to infer that the Bordens were there for a time.

Has anyone ever been able to pinpoint the finishing school or "female seminary" that Emma supposedly attended? Does it seem possible, or even likely, that it may have been in Chicago? Has any listing of such schools been compiled and checked?

Also, doesn't it appear that JV Morse was residing in Illinois during the same time that the Bordens were likely to have been in Chicago? Do we know if JV Morse ever lived in Chicago? Has a connection ever been established between Morse and the Bordens crossing paths during this time?

And then there's the whole question of why would the Bordens have been in Chicago for any length of time? AJ Borden does not stike me as a person who took "pleasure trips." The trip seems so uncharacteristic. There must have been a good reason for Borden and family to strike out from the Northeast and travel that distance for any length of time? Perhaps Emma being in school there might supply an answer to this question...perhaps not? If not that, what? Business reasons (i.e. money) may have moved him sufficiently to take such a trip, but what sort of business would he have had? One would think it would have been something significant.

Maybe it's nothing but I find the whole "Chicago Episode" in the Bordens' lives as an interesting mystery...

[Kat]

I address these questions in my story, with educated guesses. I don't like to give too much away- would prefer or hope one read the magazine of course. I usually develope a working theory and might run it by Harry and/or Len to see if something is possible.

I did talk to Len about boarding schools and finishing schools and such for Emma. He did suggest 2 for me to check in Massachusetts and a kind of history of those ended up in my "Emma" article in The Hatchet- Feb/March 2006, "Looking For Emma."

[Kat]

I do think a major draw for the Bordens in Chicago would be that the Morses all lived there in Illinois at the time and they were Lizzie and Emma's family from their mothers' side.
It seems that Andrew took more than a year off in his land transactions locally in Fall River and Swansey, and also because it would take a very long time to travel back then, they would tend to stay longer too.

[sguthmann]

Thanks Kat. Must get those magazine copies one of these days! Terrible, I know. I completely understand that as the author, you don't want to give too much away.

I hear what you're saying about Sarah's family being in Illinois and taking Emma and Lizzie to visit, but I just don't know...I just don't see AJ Borden allowing himself such an absence from business and dealings back east, unless of course there was a monetary reason for his visit to Illinois, as well...which there could have been.

Certainly is an area for more research.

[snokkums]

The Bordens actually lived in Chicago for awhile? Am I reading this right? I didn't know they ever lefted Fall River. Boy I am really learning something on this site!

[Kat]

Morse
Inquest
106
Q. Did he [Andrew Borden] talk to you any other time about a will?
A. I think that is all.
Q. That is the first and last time?
A. Years ago, out West at my place one time, he said he had a will; several years ago he told me he had destroyed it.
-------

Rebello:
pg. 10

"'When a young girl, she accompanied her parents to Chicago and was there a member of the Sunday school class and punctual in attendance.'--"Lizzie Borden: Her School, and Later Life, Noble Woman Though Retiring," Boston Herald, August 7, 1892: 6.

"Mrs. Charles J. Holmes and unidentified friends of Lizzie's were interviewed by the Boston Herald. A partial listing of comments are listed..."
______

From these things we can deduce that at the least Andrew Borden and Lizzie Borden as a child, visited Chicago.

The Morses had moved to Illinois.
Sorry if there is confusion, snokkums.

[Shelley]

Len had suggested Mount Holyoke Female Seminary as a very likely candidate for Emma's school days. I went up there 2 weeks ago but the alumnae association was closed on Saturday. Emily Dickinson attended there for a short time also, and it was the school of choice for Boston area ladies of good family.

[RayS]

I do not want to ruffle your feathers, or whatnot. But that quote sounds like an "uncorroborated eyewitness" that appears to explain whatever you may read into it. Does it mean Andy destroyed a will he paid for and did not replace it? Doesn't sound believable to me, but then I am a skeptic.

Morse
Inquest
106
Q. Did he [Andrew Borden] talk to you any other time about a will?
A. I think that is all.
Q. That is the first and last time?
A. Years ago, out West at my place one time, he said he had a will; several years ago he told me he had destroyed it.

PS It is a well-known trick for an undercover operative to claim he did something in order to draw out a remark from the other person. You can sometimes hear this in 'bull sessions' (which is almost never about a bull).

[sguthmann]

RayS, while your opinion doesn't "ruffle my feathers," it's not really appropriate to the topic of this post, "The Bordens in Chicago Pre-1892." Can we just stick to the forum topic please? Feel free to start your own forum topic regarding the relative quality of witness questioning and testimonies.

Sorry, it's just a pet peeve of mine. Thanks.

[Kat]

Yes actually, the point is a trip out west by Andrew, not a will.

[RayS]

RayS, while your opinion doesn't "ruffle my feathers," it's not really appropriate to the topic of this post, "The Bordens in Chicago Pre-1892." Can we just stick to the forum topic please? Feel free to start your own forum topic regarding the relative quality of witness questioning and testimonies.

Sorry, it's just a pet peeve of mine. Thanks.

The real question: is there any documentary proof that they took a trip to Chicago at that time? Having somebody say they did is not the best evidence. IMO

[Kat]

Len had suggested Mount Holyoke Female Seminary as a very likely candidate for Emma's school days. I went up there 2 weeks ago but the alumnae association was closed on Saturday. Emily Dickinson attended there for a short time also, and it was the school of choice for Boston area ladies of good family.

"In 1896 there was a fire and the original Holyoke burned, and then was rebuilt. It is reasonable to assume most enrollment records were lost at that time."--The Hatchet, "Looking For Emma," pg. 8.

However, I did not phone there for info, so looking forward to any additional proof of enrollment. That's cool you got to go there!

[sguthmann]

The real question: is there any documentary proof that they took a trip to Chicago at that time? Having somebody say they did is not the best evidence.

RayS, point taken. I agree, documentation is needed, and I was hoping that by putting the topic out there and putting our collective heads together, someone might mention some documentation previously not commonly known or be inclined to try and dig some more up...which is perhaps what Shelley and/or others will be able to do?

I agree, one cannot rely soley on heresay, but it's a point from which to start and perhaps offer some direction in the search for documentation to back it up.[/quote]

[Kat]

There is Morse under oath saying Andrew was out west at his place long ago.
That would be easily disproven at the time, to impeach the witness.
If there is question about whether there was a will long ago, then it makes sense there was one, as Andrew had a business partner at the time, Almy, and they each easily could have had such a document to seperate their accounts from each other upon the death of a business partner. Once the partnership dissolved the will would be useless and outdated and destroyed as no longer valid.
None of this sounds unreasonable.

Mrs. Holmes very probably did know about a trip west by the Bordens and Lizzie in particular. I would think a story like that would have been overturned at the time if it were not true. There were plenty of reporters looking for stories. Hanscomb was also sent west I believe.

I think there a lot of other more spurious claims to be investigated before this one.

[RayS]

There is Morse under oath saying Andrew was out west at his place long ago.
That would be easily disproven at the time, to impeach the witness.
If there is question about whether there was a will long ago, then it makes sense there was one, as Andrew had a business partner at the time, Almy, and they each easily could have had such a document to seperate their accounts from each other upon the death of a business partner. Once the partnership dissolved the will would be useless and outdated and destroyed as no longer valid.
None of this sounds unreasonable.

Mrs. Holmes very probably did know about a trip west by the Bordens and Lizzie in particular. I would think a story like that would have been overturned at the time if it were not true. There were plenty of reporters looking for stories. Hanscomb was also sent west I believe.

I think there a lot of other more spurious claims to be investigated before this one.

Pardon my reasoned skepticism.
First, a miser would not likely travel for pleasure; the thought would turn his stomach. Andy had his business to look after.
Second, a false statement like that is not perjury, which only pertains to facts material to the case. "I once met President Lincoln" for example.
Third, the job of a jury is to decide on the facts given varying and conflicting testimony. You can't assume everything said is true.
The purpose of a Trial Transcript is to record what was done in case of reversible errors. Trials have errors in them, but only those which could lead to a false conviction are reversible if objection was taken at the time. No objection, you lose the right to an appeal. I hope that explains it?

[Kat]

That was inquest testimony. Do you read these threads?

[RayS]

That was inquest testimony. Do you read these threads?

My time is limited, even more so this month.
Hasta la vista!

[sguthmann]

At the risk of repeating myself, one has to at least take note of trial testimony, newspaper accounts, etc when one is starting to research such an item, but one cannot rely soley on those sources when it comes to proving a thing to be true or not. These sources give us leads, things to look into further and guesses as to what sorts of resources might be able to verify the items - items like the Bordens' reported time in Chicago/Illinois when Lizzie was younger.

Am I satisfied to take the newspaper accounts and the witnesses testimonies at face value? No, of course not. However, they give us a starting point from which to do some research to see if the claim can be verified in other ways.

Do I believe the Bordens were in Chicago/Illinois for a time when Lizzie was a young girl? Yes,I am inclined to think that it is a reasonable supposition - although why they would be so far from home from any extended period of time is still a mystery to me judging from at AJ Borden's characteristic behaviors (unless there was money to be made!).

Do I want to know more about the Bordens' time in Chicago? Yes! I want to know when, and where, and who, and WHY. That's where the additional digging comes in. And by posting this thread, I was really hoping to spur some additional research, or hear from someone who has done more digging and had found something that might tell us more about this trip. I still hope for that.

So then, using inquest and trial testimonies and newspaper reports, etc as supporting pieces, is there any "new" research regarding this "trip" the Bordens took to Chicago/Illinois when Lizzie was young?

[Kat]

There are a few who do research like that- like our Hatchet contributors.
Many probably would like to, but maybe they have busier lives, whereas others find more time.

I consider what I achieved as "research" to write my story. I also consulted with others. I read selections from Livermore's autobiography. I checked Andrew's land deals (all of them) in Len Rebello's book to see if there was a reasonable span of time for the family to be gone and saw a good gap from Feb. 1868 to June, 1870 where there were no land deals (page 551). I checked the RR route to make sure that was possible and found they could have followed the route Lincoln's funeral train had taken. I read about the history of the railroads and Pullman cars The thing I did not do was visit Chicago, nor call their Historical Society. Good luck.

Here are my sources, and my comments [my comments in the "James" section were my own comparisions with parallel lives between Bordens and Livermores- in the "Elusive John Morse" written by our Joe Carlson, I was his own personal Editor for 3 months on that work].
Maybe the next time you are in Chicago you will find out more.

[RayS]

As I remember it, the railroad came to Chicage circa 1855. It would be possible to travel from NY city to there afterwards. The roads west continued building after the Civil War. I'm not claiming to be an expert.

I don't know enough to deny that story, but given the "Legends of Lizzie" I remain a skeptic of that story. It is quite possible that the Bordens would travel to visit a family, but I wonder if this was business related for Andy.
If he visited a coffin manufacturer to determine quality (and make a deal) then it would be more likely than a mere pleasure trip.

Travelling by train was not a pleasure trip in those days.
"Hear that Lonsome Whistle Blow" by Dee Brown is a book on post-Civil War railroading.

[sguthmann]

Thank you, Kat, for posting the references you used to write your article.

Perhaps I should clarify, I wasn't disparaging any of the research you have done to write your article. I continued to have only the utmost respect for all your knowledge and research on the Borden case. I agree, most people who find the case interesting and want to do more digging cannot easily drop everything and travel to wherever additional information might be found, simply because of committments to family, jobs, not to mention expenses of such research. The internet and email have done wonders to be able to bring infomation to people who otherwise may have had to travel to where it was located in order to access it.

I do intend to try and do more research during a future trip to Chicago, and will be happy to let all know if and what I find. I'm hoping I get lucky and find something that may add to our collective knowledge. I want to be clear, I certainly did not mean to give the impression that I dismiss what others have hypothesized and/or researched thus far regarding the Bordens in Chicago. I'm simply hungry for more, and for as many hard facts as are possible!

[Kat]

Yes I understand. We are looking forward to what you may find and what you might share.
I think the place burned down since the time period I hypothesized?
Are you looking to see if Emma was sent to school there? We had discussed that c. 2002 or 2003 but never got anywhere with it.
After talking to Len about Emma's schooling I think he favors some place more conventional closer to home, like Holyoke or Wheaton- but it's not impossible, since Morses' were somewhat nearby.