I took the tour of the house, which is sooo cool by the way!!!, and the tour guide pointed out that there is a little closet at the foot of the stairs. She went on to explain that one of the younger defense lawyers proved that someone could hide in there, since he did for about an hour while police and forensic people were moving about the house. Does anyone recall the name of the lawyer?
I'm writing a paper for class about Lizzie, and it has to be impartial, so I'm just trying to get all the facts. Can anyone help?
Also Bridget said that Lizzie laughed from upstairs, but Lizzie testified she was in the hay loft. What does anyone make of that? Mrs. Borden was dead for a while since Bridget heard it while trying to let Mr. Borden inside.
The Hidden Closet
Moderator: Adminlizzieborden
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RayS
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Re: The Hidden Closet
I believe it was lawyer Jennings, who was a friend of Andrew Borden.Christina @ Tue May 23, 2006 12:52 pm wrote:I took the tour of the house, which is sooo cool by the way!!!, and the tour guide pointed out that there is a little closet at the foot of the stairs. She went on to explain that one of the younger defense lawyers proved that someone could hide in there, since he did for about an hour while police and forensic people were moving about the house. Does anyone recall the name of the lawyer?
...
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RayS
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Re: The Hidden Closet
NOW THIS IS IMPORTANT!!!Christina @ Tue May 23, 2006 12:52 pm wrote:...
Also Bridget said that Lizzie laughed from upstairs, but Lizzie testified she was in the hay loft. What does anyone make of that? Mrs. Borden was dead for a while since Bridget heard it while trying to let Mr. Borden inside.
Bridget said she heard a laugh from upstairs, but Lizzie quickly said it was her. Bridget did not contradict Lizzie by saying Lizzie was in the kitchen at the time. This is how Lizzie covered up the presence of a Secret Visitor.
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Angel
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Re: The Hidden Closet
Lizzie said she was on the stairs when Bridget was letting her father in the front door. Then she changed her story and said she was in the kitchen. Then she said she was confused because there were so many questions being put to her all at once.Christina @ Tue May 23, 2006 12:52 pm wrote:Bridget said that Lizzie laughed from upstairs, but Lizzie testified she was in the hay loft. What does anyone make of that? Mrs. Borden was dead for a while since Bridget heard it while trying to let Mr. Borden inside.
Lizzie said she went to the loft after Mr. Borden was let in and after he had settled down to take his nap.
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Christina
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That is what I have been confused about. I have heard many variations about where Lizzie was when Mr. Borden came home early from his meeting about the farm. Was she in the barn (actually that couldn't be possible because no dust was disturbed and the loft was too hot to stay in for 20 min) or was she upstairs or in the kitchen?
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Audrey
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Christina have you looked at the trial documents, witness statements, etc found here?
http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/CrimeLibrary.htm
http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/CrimeLibrary.htm
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Harry
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Christina, here is the testimony from the trial by Thomas Kieran (page 116). He did all the measurements of the Borden house:
"Q. ... By the way, who was it, or with whom was it that you made these experiments with reference to the closet in the front entry?
A. With Mr. Jennings.
Q. I did not understand you.
A. With Mr. Jennings.
Q. Is there any ventilation whatever to that closet except by keeping the door open or partially open?
A. I did not see any.
Q. How long did Mr. Jennings stay in there with the door shut?
A. Mr. Jennings did not go in the closet.
Q. Then you misunderstood my question.
A. I mean that he did not go in the closet at the time to which I refer. He called my attention to the experiment. Mr. Phillips went in the closet.
Q. Mr. Phillips, associate of Mr. Jennings?
A. Yes, sir. Mr. Jennings went in the closet but not at the time when I made my experiment.
Q. Then I will ask the same question with respect to Mr. Phillips: How long did he stay in the closet with the door shut?
A. Oh, I don't know, not more than a few minutes, I think."
And welcome to the forum!
"Q. ... By the way, who was it, or with whom was it that you made these experiments with reference to the closet in the front entry?
A. With Mr. Jennings.
Q. I did not understand you.
A. With Mr. Jennings.
Q. Is there any ventilation whatever to that closet except by keeping the door open or partially open?
A. I did not see any.
Q. How long did Mr. Jennings stay in there with the door shut?
A. Mr. Jennings did not go in the closet.
Q. Then you misunderstood my question.
A. I mean that he did not go in the closet at the time to which I refer. He called my attention to the experiment. Mr. Phillips went in the closet.
Q. Mr. Phillips, associate of Mr. Jennings?
A. Yes, sir. Mr. Jennings went in the closet but not at the time when I made my experiment.
Q. Then I will ask the same question with respect to Mr. Phillips: How long did he stay in the closet with the door shut?
A. Oh, I don't know, not more than a few minutes, I think."
And welcome to the forum!
I know I ask perfection of a quite imperfect world
And fool enough to think that's what I'll find
And fool enough to think that's what I'll find
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Harry
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Arthur Phillips also wrote a book "The Borden Murder Mystery: In Defense of Lizzie Borden" and on page 4 of that book he has a photo of the closet. He states:
"...The police also claimed that no person could have remained concealed in the house from upwards of an hour and have remained undiscovered. I now disclose, it never having been used before, a photograph I took showing a closet at the foot of the front stairway, iys door partially open. It was a large closet, and Andrew J. Jennings, chief counsel for Miss Borden, was then peeking from inside the closet through a crack in the door into the hall. ..."
So it looks like both Mr. Phillips and Mr. Jennings were in that closet at one time or another.
"...The police also claimed that no person could have remained concealed in the house from upwards of an hour and have remained undiscovered. I now disclose, it never having been used before, a photograph I took showing a closet at the foot of the front stairway, iys door partially open. It was a large closet, and Andrew J. Jennings, chief counsel for Miss Borden, was then peeking from inside the closet through a crack in the door into the hall. ..."
So it looks like both Mr. Phillips and Mr. Jennings were in that closet at one time or another.
I know I ask perfection of a quite imperfect world
And fool enough to think that's what I'll find
And fool enough to think that's what I'll find
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snokkums
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william
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I'm not vouching for Lizzies veracity, but while she was on the stand she was asked over 800 questions.
That's enough to make anyones head reel.
Point in question:
When I was a lad of fourteen tender years, I had to testify at a trial. My dad sued the owner of a stable because he allowed me me ride without a companion from the stable. As a consequece, I was thrown by the horse, Nemo by name, and received several injuries including partial loss of a finger.
When I was questioned on the stand I was asked how I mounted the horse. My repy:: "Mr Hawkhurst helped me."
Later on I was asked the same question.
My reply: "They gave me a stool so I could mount the horse.'
The judge found against my father's complaint because (he said) my replies were inconsistant.
That is why I have sympathy for Lizzie. A good lawyer can twist the testimony of even an honest person - that's what they are paid to do.
That's enough to make anyones head reel.
Point in question:
When I was a lad of fourteen tender years, I had to testify at a trial. My dad sued the owner of a stable because he allowed me me ride without a companion from the stable. As a consequece, I was thrown by the horse, Nemo by name, and received several injuries including partial loss of a finger.
When I was questioned on the stand I was asked how I mounted the horse. My repy:: "Mr Hawkhurst helped me."
Later on I was asked the same question.
My reply: "They gave me a stool so I could mount the horse.'
The judge found against my father's complaint because (he said) my replies were inconsistant.
That is why I have sympathy for Lizzie. A good lawyer can twist the testimony of even an honest person - that's what they are paid to do.
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Stefani
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Of course you are confused! Lizzie was confused. Here is her testimony at the Inquest. It reads like a Escher etching.
60 (17)
Q. Did you spend any time up the front stairs before your father returned?
A. No, sir.
Q. Or after he returned?
A. No, sir. I did stay in my room long enough when I went up to sew a little piece of tape on a garment.
Q. Was that the time when your father came home?
A. He came home after I came down stairs.
Q. You were not up stairs when he came home?
A. I was not up stairs when he came home; no, sir.
Q. What was Maggie doing when your father came home?
A. I don't know whether she was there or whether she had gone up stairs; I can't remember.
Q. Who let your father in?
61 (18)
A. I think he came to the front door and rang the bell, and I think Maggie let him in, and he said he had forgotten his key; so I think she must have been down stairs.
Q. His key would have done him no good if the locks were left as you left them?
A. But they were always unbolted in the morning.
Q. Who unbolted them that morning?
A. I don't think they had been unbolted; Maggie can tell you.
Q. If he had not forgotten his key it would have been no good?
A. No, he had his key and could not get in. I understood Maggie to say he said he had forgotten his key.
Q. You did not hear him say anything about it?
A. I heard his voice, but I don't know what he said.
Q. I understood you to say he said he had forgotten his key?
A. No, it was Maggie said he said he had forgotten the key.
Q. Where was Maggie when the bell rang?
A. I don't know, sir.
Q. Where were you when the bell rang?
A. I think in my room up stairs.
Q. Then you were up stairs when your father came home?
A. I don't know sure, but I think I was.
Q. What were you doing?
A. As I say, I took up these clean clothes, and stopped and basted a little piece of tape on a garment.
Q. Did you come down before your father was let in?
A. I was on the stairs coming down when she let him in.
Q. Then you were up stairs when your father came to the house on his return?
A. I think I was.
Q. How long had you been there?
A. I had only been upstairs just long enough to take the clothes up and baste the little loop on the sleeve. I don't think I had been up there over five minutes.
Q. Was Maggie still engaged in washing windows when your father got back?
A. I don't know.
Q. You remember, Miss Borden, I will call your attention to it so as to see if I have any misunderstanding, not for the purpose of confusing you; you remember that you told me several times that you were down stairs, and not up stairs when your father came home? You have forgotten, perhaps?
A. I don't know what I have said. I have answered so many questions and I am so confused I don't know one thing from another. I am telling you just as nearly as I know.
Q. Calling your attention to what you said about that a few minutes ago, and now again to the circumstance you have said you were up stairs when the bell rang, and were on the stairs when Maggie let your father in; which now is your recollection of the true statement of the matter, that you were down stairs when the bell rang and your father came?
A. I think I was down stairs in the kitchen.
Q. And then you were not up stairs?
62 (19)
A. I think I was not; because I went up almost immediately, as soon as I went down, and then came down again and stayed down.
Q. What had you in your mind when you said you were on the stairs as Maggie let your father in?
A. The other day somebody came there and she let them in and I was on the stairs; I don't know whether the morning before or when it was.
Q. You understood I was asking you exactly and explicitly about this fatal day?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. I now call your attention to the fact that you had specifically told me you had gone up stairs, and had been there about five minutes when the bell rang, and were on your way down, and were on the stairs when Maggie let your father in that day---
A. Yes, I said that, and then I said I did not know whether I was on the stairs or in the kitchen.
Q. Now how will you have it?
A. I think, as nearly as I know, I think I was in the kitchen.
Q. How long was your father gone?
A. I don't know, sir; not very long.
Q. An hour?
A. I should not think so.
60 (17)
Q. Did you spend any time up the front stairs before your father returned?
A. No, sir.
Q. Or after he returned?
A. No, sir. I did stay in my room long enough when I went up to sew a little piece of tape on a garment.
Q. Was that the time when your father came home?
A. He came home after I came down stairs.
Q. You were not up stairs when he came home?
A. I was not up stairs when he came home; no, sir.
Q. What was Maggie doing when your father came home?
A. I don't know whether she was there or whether she had gone up stairs; I can't remember.
Q. Who let your father in?
61 (18)
A. I think he came to the front door and rang the bell, and I think Maggie let him in, and he said he had forgotten his key; so I think she must have been down stairs.
Q. His key would have done him no good if the locks were left as you left them?
A. But they were always unbolted in the morning.
Q. Who unbolted them that morning?
A. I don't think they had been unbolted; Maggie can tell you.
Q. If he had not forgotten his key it would have been no good?
A. No, he had his key and could not get in. I understood Maggie to say he said he had forgotten his key.
Q. You did not hear him say anything about it?
A. I heard his voice, but I don't know what he said.
Q. I understood you to say he said he had forgotten his key?
A. No, it was Maggie said he said he had forgotten the key.
Q. Where was Maggie when the bell rang?
A. I don't know, sir.
Q. Where were you when the bell rang?
A. I think in my room up stairs.
Q. Then you were up stairs when your father came home?
A. I don't know sure, but I think I was.
Q. What were you doing?
A. As I say, I took up these clean clothes, and stopped and basted a little piece of tape on a garment.
Q. Did you come down before your father was let in?
A. I was on the stairs coming down when she let him in.
Q. Then you were up stairs when your father came to the house on his return?
A. I think I was.
Q. How long had you been there?
A. I had only been upstairs just long enough to take the clothes up and baste the little loop on the sleeve. I don't think I had been up there over five minutes.
Q. Was Maggie still engaged in washing windows when your father got back?
A. I don't know.
Q. You remember, Miss Borden, I will call your attention to it so as to see if I have any misunderstanding, not for the purpose of confusing you; you remember that you told me several times that you were down stairs, and not up stairs when your father came home? You have forgotten, perhaps?
A. I don't know what I have said. I have answered so many questions and I am so confused I don't know one thing from another. I am telling you just as nearly as I know.
Q. Calling your attention to what you said about that a few minutes ago, and now again to the circumstance you have said you were up stairs when the bell rang, and were on the stairs when Maggie let your father in; which now is your recollection of the true statement of the matter, that you were down stairs when the bell rang and your father came?
A. I think I was down stairs in the kitchen.
Q. And then you were not up stairs?
62 (19)
A. I think I was not; because I went up almost immediately, as soon as I went down, and then came down again and stayed down.
Q. What had you in your mind when you said you were on the stairs as Maggie let your father in?
A. The other day somebody came there and she let them in and I was on the stairs; I don't know whether the morning before or when it was.
Q. You understood I was asking you exactly and explicitly about this fatal day?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. I now call your attention to the fact that you had specifically told me you had gone up stairs, and had been there about five minutes when the bell rang, and were on your way down, and were on the stairs when Maggie let your father in that day---
A. Yes, I said that, and then I said I did not know whether I was on the stairs or in the kitchen.
Q. Now how will you have it?
A. I think, as nearly as I know, I think I was in the kitchen.
Q. How long was your father gone?
A. I don't know, sir; not very long.
Q. An hour?
A. I should not think so.
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Robert Harry
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I have to add my two cents here. I'm sorry, but this testimony of Lizzie sure sounds fishy to me. William, your situation is a bit different. Though you gave slightly different accounts of specific actions, you did not deny (or forget) that you mounted a horse. The difference with Lizzie is that she changes the reality of the experience, she doesn't simply add a few extra details. What strikes me as very suspect is that she says she doesn't even know where she was when her father came home. I could see her being confused if there was a lot of hectic activity going on. For example, I work in a very busy mental health clinic. At the end of the day, I might be confused about what I was doing at a given moment. But...when something noteworthy happens, for example, if a patient has a psychotic episode, or if Emergency personnel come in, I can remember exactly where I saw them or what I was doing when I witnessed the event. If someone asked me later what I was wearing, or whether I coughed or not, I might not remember. Lizzie's house was not busy that day. Sure, she and Bridget might have been running around doing little errands, but certainly if something so unusual as Andrew forgetting his key and having to ring the bell happened, I would bet that Lizzie would remember very clearly exactly where she was, especially considering the life-changing events of that day. Also, Bridget states forthrightly that she heard LIZZIE laugh. She surely would recognize Lizzie's laugh and not mistake if for some unknown stranger, especially a male stranger, in my opinion. I will admit, though, that whatever Dr. Bowen gave Lizzie to calm her down might obliterated her memory.
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RayS
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The story about concealment in a closet is to provide reasonable doubt by inferring some one could have been there.
The law is that circumstantial evidence is not enough to convict if there is a reasonable explanation for the facts observed. Innocent until proven guilty.
Yes, its in the eye of the beholder (jury).
The law is that circumstantial evidence is not enough to convict if there is a reasonable explanation for the facts observed. Innocent until proven guilty.
Yes, its in the eye of the beholder (jury).
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Kat
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Re: The Hidden Closet
Christina, hello!Christina @ Tue May 23, 2006 12:52 pm wrote:I took the tour of the house, which is sooo cool by the way!!!, and the tour guide pointed out that there is a little closet at the foot of the stairs. She went on to explain that one of the younger defense lawyers proved that someone could hide in there, since he did for about an hour while police and forensic people were moving about the house. Does anyone recall the name of the lawyer?
I'm writing a paper for class about Lizzie, and it has to be impartial, so I'm just trying to get all the facts. Can anyone help?
Also Bridget said that Lizzie laughed from upstairs, but Lizzie testified she was in the hay loft. What does anyone make of that? Mrs. Borden was dead for a while since Bridget heard it while trying to let Mr. Borden inside.
Can you tell us what you have read so far?
That would be a big help.
Thanks!
-Kat
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DWilly
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In my opinion, I believe Bridget when she testified she heard Lizzie laugh from the top of the stairs. I also, think that when Lizzie was first questioned about where she was when Andrew came to the door, she told the truth. Which was she was at the top of the stairs. I think it dawned on her she could not place herself that close to Abby's body so, she changed her story. Again and again. Which is sort of funny. To me it seems Lizzie thought she did not need an alibi. I guess she thought she was above suspicion.
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RayS
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I don't have any books beside me as I tyr to type correctly. But I remember it as Bridget saying she heard a laugh from upstairs, and Lizzie immediately said it was she. That's when the cover-up started, Day One.DWilly @ Wed May 24, 2006 9:35 am wrote:In my opinion, I believe Bridget when she testified she heard Lizzie laugh from the top of the stairs. I also, think that when Lizzie was first questioned about where she was when Andrew came to the door, she told the truth. Which was she was at the top of the stairs. I think it dawned on her she could not place herself that close to Abby's body so, she changed her story. Again and again. Which is sort of funny. To me it seems Lizzie thought she did not need an alibi. I guess she thought she was above suspicion.
[Why the police separate witnesses to get an uninfluenced testimony nowadays.]
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StevenB
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I'll Take The Big Closet
Why hide in the itty biity closet for over an hour when you could hide in the big closet off the sitting room under the stairs, the dress closet, or the old sink room on the second floor...........
StevenB
StevenB
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Kat
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Shelley
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That closet at the foot of the stairs is very shallow-17 5/8 inches, and it had diningroom table leaves in it and a carpet sweeper. I lasted about 3 minutes trying to crouch in that thing- totally empty with the door open a wide crack to see out and breathe. The rotary lock would also have pinned an intruder inside had anyone seen the door open a crack and locked it- a chance I would not want to take. If I wanted to hide out in a closet, I would pick the one in the sitting room which goes under the front staircase.
Sitting room closet
Sitting room closet
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Shelley
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I'm not following here- trapped? Well, it is quite a drop to the ground from the first floor windows. If I were trapped, the cellar would offer an exit, or hiding out in the sink room would keep me handy to the side door until I could slip out. The pantry might be a possibilty- I think there was a window in there. Hiding in the front hall closet with all that stuff in it would be a trick, plus I would have to unlock three mechanisms to get out the front door- right onto a busy street.