Andrew Borden As A Young Man

[1bigsteve]

I may have missed information on this subject but does anyone know what Andrew was like as a young, pre-marriage, man? I mean was he an energetic go-getter, a fun loving man, fun to be around, did he laugh and smile or was he always a "Scrooge?"

Granted many people had little to be happy about in those hard days but I have always wondered what kind of man Andrew was in his younger years.

-1bigsteve (o:

[Kat]

I went to the archives to find topics on Andrew Borden. There are a few but not much on him as a young man. Sorry.
His father Abraham was not a rich man, and his brothers did OK.
Abraham was the eldest and so was his son Andrew. That might influence them as they grew, in the times they lived in.

[Richard]

I’ve always gotten the impression that the image of Andrew as a grim Scrooge was only about partially true.

I’m going to take a chance here and give my spiel about Andrew. I’m not the best qualified person on the Forum to say this, so anyone please correct me where you think I’m wrong. These are just my Third-Year-Into-Lizzie-Studies Impressions.

There is that stereotype about Andrew that he was excessively humorless and penny pinching, not to mention emotionally suffocating with his own family, that he was ruthless with business deals, that he cast out tenants without any sense of humanity, that he withheld telephones and electricity from his family to save a few annual dollars.

But I think the reality was more that he was a product of the Fall River he grew up in during the 1830s where industry was only a decade or two old and was growing at a rapid rate, but much of the world of Andrew’s father was still intact, the colonial Fall River that had known the War of Independence and the struggles with the Indians. It was only towards the end of Andrew’s life that he began to see the modern world emerge, the world of telephones, domestic electricity, telegraphs, transcontinental railroads and modern plumbing for bathrooms.

Andrew was probably trapped between these two worlds. He grew up in a town full of self made millionaires who had built the textile mills and expanded the town to a major American city. He probably felt wedged somewhere in the middle between farmhand and tycoon. He had money because of his furniture business and real estate investments, but he was far from the men of enormous wealth who had raised the mills and the banks. He was no doubt self-conscious of this, but he did not take any of it for granted.

In some ways he was admirable for being so unostentatious with his money. But there is always the issue of whether his frugal and prudent attitudes hurt his daughters. It didn’t seem to hurt Abbie who seemed to prefer a very modest and private life.

So I don’t think that Andrew was excessively eccentric but he definitely was very exacting in business, and he was neurotic about spending more money than he had to. But I think he was a man trapped between the America of 1830 and the America of 1890. Between those two years, Fall River expanded greatly and changed dramatically. And the technology distinctions between those two periods was enormous. The industrial revolution had occurred right under his very nose.

In earlier life, he was probably a very disciplined businessman who liked the keep his money under the floorboards, so to speak. He was devoted to his business and coveted the money, but I don’t get the impression he made his employees freeze to save pennies on firewood.

We must remember he did give his daughters a house for free and then bought it back from them for thousands of dollars each. That sounds kind of generous to me, although letting them have adult lives with families of their own would have been even more generous. But he was probably a bit paranoid about outsiders so he kept his daughters on a short leash, socially.

Ok, Bordenites. How did I do?

[RayS]

Using "Scrooge" as a name for Andy isn't that far off. Ebenezer was a sort of fun young man, but had problems from his dead Mom and being blamed for it. He was about average when young, but decided to become rich rather than "have fun". The English 1951 film makes this all clear.

[Richard]

Interesting Ray. Yes, Andrew must have evolved over the decades. Perhaps he was looser and more fun in his youth. but I doubt he was anything much more than totaly focused on his business.

I wonder how Andrew was as a boy? Did he hunt with his father? Did he see Indians? Did the family ever travel?

[RayS]

I think I can safely say the following w/o fear of contradiction.

Andrew Jackson Borden was like the other young boys of his neighborhood. After finishing Grammar School at 14 he was apprenticed to a carpenter. He soon learned that the way to become rich was not to work hard but to work your employees hard, and by going into business for yourself. Buy low and sell high still works today.

He met an married a girl from his area. Elder women then had a hobby of matching boys to girls to avoid any possibility of close relations. One way was to marry a girl from another village.

As a carpenter he realized that becoming an undertaker would always have a market. Death and taxes are always with us; everybody has to die sooner or later. Andy learned the tricks of undertakers, billing for work not done and talking the bereaved into taking on debt secured by a note.
When they couldn't pay Andy foreclosed on their homes. Then selling quickly to avoid future legal action. The example with the Braytons marked his coming of age, like being a "made man" in certain circles.

As he prospered he bought many of the lands that his father had sold off. Andy knew that people had to live somewhere, and being a big landowner was a formula for wealth. (Like the aristocrats of England and Europe.)
You can't be softhearted or scrupulous if you want to get rich. Everything has a trade-off, as in that famous essay of Emerson "On Compensation".

[So how am I doing here based on my general knowledge?]

Arnold Brown mentions that Andy's father sold off lands, but kept the water rights. THIS was another key to wealth, the mill owners HAD to come to Andy to get the water power for their mills.

Anyone who knows of western history knows of the power of water rights in California and states to the east.

[Richard]

RayS wrote: Andrew Jackson Borden was like the other young boys of his neighborhood.

But what was his neighborhood like? The neighborhood of Ferry Street in the early 1830s was very different from the Fall River of 1892. We know so much about the 1892 Fall River because we all study the murder case. but what did it look like back in 1832? How would a childhood differ in that era than it did in the 1860s when Lizzie was growing up.

Think of how different Queens, NYC was in the 1930s when my mother was growing up...farmland, small villages, county fairs, trolly cars...and then 30 years later when I was growing up...cross borough expressways, subways, elevated trains, large apartment complexes, the World's Fair in Flushing Meadow Park, La Guardia Airport, television, movie theaters, etc.

I'm aware that Fall River underwent a similar expansion of growth of both people, technology and industry. Andrew Borden was born into one of those worlds and then died in the other.

[Kat]

We found that there had been a hat manufacturer down at the docks below the Ferry Street address. We opined that the chemicals used there could have poisoned the nearby neighbors. Ferry Street was sort of on a hill tho, so not too close to that pollution. But who knows- maybe there was something weird in the water they drank. I'd think it would be pretty hazardous to one's health, back in those days of Andrew's youth

[RayS]

RayS wrote: Andrew Jackson Borden was like the other young boys of his neighborhood.

But what was his neighborhood like? The neighborhood of Ferry Street in the early 1830s was very different from the Fall River of 1892. We know so much about the 1892 Fall River because we all study the murder case. but what did it look like back in 1832? How would a childhood differ in that era than it did in the 1860s when Lizzie was growing up.

Think of how different Queens, NYC was in the 1930s when my mother was growing up...farmland, small villages, county fairs, trolly cars...and then 30 years later when I was growing up...cross borough expressways, subways, elevated trains, large apartment complexes, the World's Fair in Flushing Meadow Park, La Guardia Airport, television, movie theaters, etc.

I'm aware that Fall River underwent a similar expansion of growth of both people, technology and industry. Andrew Borden was born into one of those worlds and then died in the other.

My description of Young Andy might be called "winging it". Most boys or girls in a neighborhood are like the others. Assumption.
It would be nice to have more details, but you can read about Life in American in 1814 (there is a book on this) and just project the dots.

[RayS]

We found that there had been a hat manufacturer down at the docks below the Ferry Street address. We opined that the chemicals used there could have poisoned the nearby neighbors. Ferry Street was sort of on a hill tho, so not too close to that pollution. But who knows- maybe there was something weird in the water they drank. I'd think it would be pretty hazardous to one's health, back in those days of Andrew's youth

Did they drink well water or from a municipal source? If the latter, when did they begin? Before the Civil War or after? Don't forget the sewer system.
As for pollution explaining Andy, why not the other boys in the neighborhood?

When others pointed out that while Grant may be militarily successful, he drank a lot. Lincoln's response was to find out what whiskey he drank and give a barrel to the other generals. A lot of wisdom in that joke.

[1bigsteve]

I think you did real good, Richard. It all sounds realistic.

I think the hard times molded people like Andrew into what they became. Given different settings Andrew may have turned out more out-going and pleasant to be with. "Good Old Days?" I doubt it. Life must have been tough then.

-1bigsteve (o:

[RayS]

I think you did real good, Richard. It all sounds realistic.

I think the hard times molded people like Andrew into what they became. Given different settings Andrew may have turned out more out-going and pleasant to be with. "Good Old Days?" I doubt it. Life must have been tough then.

-1bigsteve (o:

One of the biggest lies in Official American History is to portray the 1890s as "The Good Old Days". Nothing could be further from the truth!

The 1890s, 1893 in particular. saw the Worst Depression in American History. Only the Great Depression 1928-1949 was worse. You can look it up in any good history book, if you can find an uncensored history book.

While being born into money can make a difference in attitude, it may not be for the best. Would you like to be a Michael Skakel or Paris Hilton?

[snokkums]

I think he was a hard worker. He doesn't seem to me be a high roller. He seems to me that he always was a tight wad

[RayS]

Its interesting that his early life has been neglected so much.
But who would be interested in it?

[mspitstop]

yes, richard, i agree with you. i've felt for a long time that andrew has been misrepresented in order to heighten the "drama" in the house. the allowance that the girls received, while not grand, was adequate at the time, and he really seemed to be sensitive to being equitable when it came to abby and the girls. i totally agree with you about what he might have been like as a young man. also, if you read the trial testimony, bridget doesn't portray abby as some kind of recluse...she was apparently expecting company on the following monday. i think their very "ordinariness" is one of the things that is so interesting about the crime, not that they were a miserly malcontent and fat fretful recluse and the household was a powder keg.

[SallyG]

I think you did real good, Richard. It all sounds realistic.

I think the hard times molded people like Andrew into what they became. Given different settings Andrew may have turned out more out-going and pleasant to be with. "Good Old Days?" I doubt it. Life must have been tough then.

-1bigsteve (o:

One of the biggest lies in Official American History is to portray the 1890s as "The Good Old Days". Nothing could be further from the truth!

The 1890s, 1893 in particular. saw the Worst Depression in American History. Only the Great Depression 1928-1949 was worse. You can look it up in any good history book, if you can find an uncensored history book.

While being born into money can make a difference in attitude, it may not be for the best. Would you like to be a Michael Skakel or Paris Hilton?

I agree. Someday our great-grandchildren will see this era as the Good Old Days...and we all know it's far from it. We tend to romanticize the past. It SEEMS so much better, but if we really look at it, we see that the same problems existed then as now.

[snokkums]

The only thing I have ever heard about Andy in his younger days was that he worked hard and he was tight with his money.

[Yooper]

When I was a young man I had occasion to talk to a gentleman who was in his nineties at the time, this was back in the early seventies. He recalled the "horse and buggy days", gaslights, Indians begging for food at the door in rural Wisconsin. His life spanned the period from the Victorian era to men on the moon. I asked him if he thought life in general had gotten better over the years or if it was only different. He replied that it was really only different, the needs hadn't changed, only the wants, and convenience was a trade-off. My grandfather had the habit of saying, whenever a television commercial came up, "here's something else we can't live without!". I think Andrew may have had a good grasp of the difference between wants and needs, and may have learned it at a relatively early age.

[1bigsteve]

My grandparents felt pretty much the same way. They felt they needed very little as oppossed to what they were told, by the commercial world, they "needed." They were not tight-fisted but they were well aware of the difference between their needs and wants. If they needed something they bought it, if not they didn't. Their house was never cluttered with stuff and there was a place for everything. Being a '50's baby I like to think I picked up on their thinking but my house is loaded full of stuff I "might" need.

I can understand where Andrew was coming from although I think he was taking it too far. All that wealth and he was reading by a fuel-fired lamp. I've known a lot of people like that. Penny wise and dollar foolish. His frugality may have been the motive for his own death. Lizzie sure didn't fall too close to his tree did she?

-1bigsteve (o:

[Yooper]

I imagine that Andrew derived peace of mind from his wealth. If his parents lived a humble life, he might well have found that disagreeable. It seems like more than just an aspiration to wealth, he seems almost driven. From a more contemporary perspective, people who lived through the Great Depression and realized the consequences of it first hand don't want to be in that position again. Maybe Andrew resolved himself to never be without money as a boy or a young man. It would be ironic if his peace of mind is what got him bumped off!

[twinsrwe]

I also think that Andrew learned as a young man the difference between "wanting" and "needing". It is no secret that Andrew was tight-fisted with his money. The thing that has always struck me as being extremely strange is the fact that there were 3 grown, unemployed, women living in Andrew's house and he apparently felt the "need" for a maid??? Granted, being a wealthy family, the "in thing" may have been to employ a maid, but come on, what else did these 3 women have to do but be at each other's throats?

[RayS]

I also think that Andrew learned as a young man the difference between "wanting" and "needing". It is no secret that Andrew was tight-fisted with his money. The thing that has always struck me as being extremely strange is the fact that there were 3 grown, unemployed, women living in Andrew's house and he apparently felt the "need" for a maid??? Granted, being a wealthy family, the "in thing" may have been to employ a maid, but come on, what else did these 3 women have to do but be at each other's throats?

YOUR question tells me a lot about you, something that I suspected.
Is that your own experience?
You seemed to have overlooked the difference in status and class among the women. I would say that any rivalry was between Emma and Lizzie, equals in status and class; and allies. Bridget may have curried favor with Abby, who like having an ally (an inferior who would not be an enemy).
Yes, the sisters would ally against the stepmother, IMO. But I wasn't there with a videocamera.

[RayS]

I imagine that Andrew derived peace of mind from his wealth. If his parents lived a humble life, he might well have found that disagreeable. It seems like more than just an aspiration to wealth, he seems almost driven. From a more contemporary perspective, people who lived through the Great Depression and realized the consequences of it first hand don't want to be in that position again. Maybe Andrew resolved himself to never be without money as a boy or a young man. It would be ironic if his peace of mind is what got him bumped off!

I swear that I never want to be poor again - Scarlett O'Hara

That is why that film seems to be a comment on the 1930s.

[twinsrwe]

YOUR question tells me a lot about you, something that I suspected.
Is that your own experience?
You seemed to have overlooked the difference in status and class among the women. I would say that any rivalry was between Emma and Lizzie, equals in status and class; and allies. Bridget may have curried favor with Abby, who like having an ally (an inferior who would not be an enemy).
Yes, the sisters would ally against the stepmother, IMO. But I wasn't there with a videocamera.

And, just what is the something that you suspected about me, Ray? Am I not allowed to ask questions or state my opinions? I made it quite clear in my previous post that since Andrew was such a penny-pincher, the Borden's having a maid is something that I have always found extremely strange. And, no, I did not overlook the difference in status and class among the women of the 19th century. Perhaps you should re-read my post and pay closer attention to what I actually wrote. I do wonder why you always feel the need to make mountains out of mole hills.

[theebmonique]

I imagine that Andrew derived peace of mind from his wealth. If his parents lived a humble life, he might well have found that disagreeable. It seems like more than just an aspiration to wealth, he seems almost driven. From a more contemporary perspective, people who lived through the Great Depression and realized the consequences of it first hand don't want to be in that position again. Maybe Andrew resolved himself to never be without money as a boy or a young man. It would be ironic if his peace of mind is what got him bumped off!

I swear that I never want to be poor again - Scarlett O'Hara

That is why that film seems to be a comment on the 1930s.

Ray...you might think about brushing up on your classic movie quotes and historical time periods.





Tracy...

[RayS]

YOUR question tells me a lot about you, something that I suspected.
Is that your own experience?
You seemed to have overlooked the difference in status and class among the women. I would say that any rivalry was between Emma and Lizzie, equals in status and class; and allies. Bridget may have curried favor with Abby, who like having an ally (an inferior who would not be an enemy).
Yes, the sisters would ally against the stepmother, IMO. But I wasn't there with a videocamera.

And, just what is the something that you suspected about me, Ray? Am I not allowed to ask questions or state my opinions? I made it quite clear in my previous post that since Andrew was such a penny-pincher, the Borden's having a maid is something that I have always found extremely strange. And, no, I did not overlook the difference in status and class among the women of the 19th century. Perhaps you should re-read my post and pay closer attention to what I actually wrote. I do wonder why you always feel the need to make mountains out of mole hills.

I think I would understand you better if you listed your age. The decades do affect one's outlook, if only from experience.

Now as to YOU, what is your experience? Live w/ an older woman? Your sisters? A roommate? All will affect your outlook, IMO.

The reason for a maid? It would enhance the status of the Borden, like other middle-class people. Its a badge of class, like having a dining room.
The overlooked question is WHEN did the Bordens feel the need for a maid? Before Andy remarried? Just when? (I don't know.)

I do not make mountains out of mole-hills: I don't have the EPA certificates to do this.

[RayS]

...
I swear that I never want to be poor again - Scarlett O'Hara

That is why that film seems to be a comment on the 1930s.

Ray...you might think about brushing up on your classic movie quotes and historical time periods.

Tracy...

I never put quote marks around that sentence, I knew that it was not exact, just from memory. You do agree with that, don't you?
"Better to light a candle than curse the darkness."

[SallyG]

...
I swear that I never want to be poor again - Scarlett O'Hara

That is why that film seems to be a comment on the 1930s.

Ray...you might think about brushing up on your classic movie quotes and historical time periods.

Tracy...

I never put quote marks around that sentence, I knew that it was not exact, just from memory. You do agree with that, don't you?
"Better to light a candle than curse the darkness."

Actually, Ray, her quote was....."As God is my witness, I'll never be hungry again"......that's from memory....

[RayS]

Ray...you might think about brushing up on your classic movie quotes and historical time periods.

Tracy...

I never put quote marks around that sentence, I knew that it was not exact, just from memory. You do agree with that, don't you?
"Better to light a candle than curse the darkness."

Actually, Ray, her quote was....."As God is my witness, I'll never be hungry again"......that's from memory....

Ha-ha-ha. We are both old and too lazy to look it up. I'll excuse you; I need no excuses myself.
I'll wait for the exact quote from the book or the movie. Who will show us up? What if we're both wrong?

[SallyG]

I never put quote marks around that sentence, I knew that it was not exact, just from memory. You do agree with that, don't you?
"Better to light a candle than curse the darkness."

Actually, Ray, her quote was....."As God is my witness, I'll never be hungry again"......that's from memory....

Ha-ha-ha. We are both old and too lazy to look it up. I'll excuse you; I need no excuses myself.
I'll wait for the exact quote from the book or the movie. Who will show us up? What if we're both wrong?

Excuse ME, Ray....but I am not OLD....I may be 50, but I still look 38, and can keep up with my four 20-something sons with no problem. So let's establish that right now....ok?

As for the quote on Gone With The Wind, I have read the book probably about 75 times...cover to cover, so I can pretty much recite any line you might want. If you would like the exact page number, let me know, and I'll pull one of my numerous copies of the book.

By the way, Ray...I have a cousin who is 68 and just bought his second Harley, is a full time photographer, and still has no problem chasing the women.

You might consider yourself old, but please don't foist your views of age on the rest of us...

[Yooper]

Actually, Ray, her quote was....."As God is my witness, I'll never be hungry again"......that's from memory....

Ha-ha-ha. We are both old and too lazy to look it up. I'll excuse you; I need no excuses myself.
I'll wait for the exact quote from the book or the movie. Who will show us up? What if we're both wrong?

Excuse ME, Ray....but I am not OLD....I may be 50, but I still look 38, and can keep up with my four 20-something sons with no problem. So let's establish that right now....ok?

As for the quote on Gone With The Wind, I have read the book probably about 75 times...cover to cover, so I can pretty much recite any line you might want. If you would like the exact page number, let me know, and I'll pull one of my numerous copies of the book.

By the way, Ray...I have a cousin who is 68 and just bought his second Harley, is a full time photographer, and still has no problem chasing the women.

You might consider yourself old, but please don't foist your views of age on the rest of us...

Ray, I've learned to avoid two words with respect to women, "old" and "fat". The proper response to "does this (garment) make me look fat?" is RUN AWAY RIGHT NOW!! There is no correct answer to that question, don't even try!

[RayS]

I didn't mean to ruffle anyone's feathers or feelings. I am old enough to join the AARP, and have been a member since the 1990s.
Am I fat? I don't think so, even if 30 lbs heavier than age 30. And yes, my doctor tells me to walk and exercise more. W/o the weight gain since I retired. As long as my pants fit, I am not a fatty acid.

Truth and beauty are in the eyes of the beholder.

Maybe its just me, but I do see more things in old books and movies from 40 or more years ago. That's what I meant about age.

My remembrance was from the film, last seen maybe 15-20 years ago. I took a look at the book in the library, and saw the last pages did not have this. They also had a scene that was probably not in the movie.
I intend to read this book someday, and also "Uncle Tom's Cabin", the book by the little lady that started the big war.

[RayS]

Actually, Ray, her quote was....."As God is my witness, I'll never be hungry again"......that's from memory....

Ha-ha-ha. We are both old and too lazy to look it up. I'll excuse you; I need no excuses myself.
I'll wait for the exact quote from the book or the movie. Who will show us up? What if we're both wrong?

Excuse ME, Ray....but I am not OLD....I may be 50, but I still look 38, and can keep up with my four 20-something sons with no problem. So let's establish that right now....ok?

As for the quote on Gone With The Wind, I have read the book probably about 75 times...cover to cover, so I can pretty much recite any line you might want. If you would like the exact page number, let me know, and I'll pull one of my numerous copies of the book.

By the way, Ray...I have a cousin who is 68 and just bought his second Harley, is a full time photographer, and still has no problem chasing the women.

You might consider yourself old, but please don't foist your views of age on the rest of us...

I will accept your expertise. But my recollection is from the film, last seen about 15-20 yrs ago.
"Gone w/ the Wind" was a work of fiction, and has been criticized as not being "factual", or the wrong politics. But I don't expert reality in a work of fiction, it tells a story.

I understand that Margaret Mitchell was quite a hell-raiser, not unlike Scarllett. She also had a lost boyfriend comparable to Rhett. (From some review read many decades ago.)

[SallyG]

Ha-ha-ha. We are both old and too lazy to look it up. I'll excuse you; I need no excuses myself.
I'll wait for the exact quote from the book or the movie. Who will show us up? What if we're both wrong?

Excuse ME, Ray....but I am not OLD....I may be 50, but I still look 38, and can keep up with my four 20-something sons with no problem. So let's establish that right now....ok?

As for the quote on Gone With The Wind, I have read the book probably about 75 times...cover to cover, so I can pretty much recite any line you might want. If you would like the exact page number, let me know, and I'll pull one of my numerous copies of the book.

By the way, Ray...I have a cousin who is 68 and just bought his second Harley, is a full time photographer, and still has no problem chasing the women.

You might consider yourself old, but please don't foist your views of age on the rest of us...

I will accept your expertise. But my recollection is from the film, last seen about 15-20 yrs ago.
"Gone w/ the Wind" was a work of fiction, and has been criticized as not being "factual", or the wrong politics. But I don't expert reality in a work of fiction, it tells a story.

I understand that Margaret Mitchell was quite a hell-raiser, not unlike Scarllett. She also had a lost boyfriend comparable to Rhett. (From some review read many decades ago.)

Margaret Mitchell was a good friend of my late mother-in-law, and yes, she was something of a hell-raiser in her youth, but her mother was also a suffragete, so she was familiar with not conforming to what society expected of her. Margaret Mitchell's "Rhett" was actually her first husband, Red, who was charismatic and handsome; he was also a womanizer, an alcoholic, and a wife-beater. She divorced him after he beat her half to death.

Gone With The Wind is one of my favorite books. It might be politically incorrect, as some have observed; it might not be totally factual; but what Margaret Mitchell was trying to show was that women are totally capable of accomplishing whatever they need to do, and don't need a man to do it for them. (No offense, guys!) It was not a love story, it was not a "history" of the Civil War, it was not written to glorify slavery....it was simply a story about two women, Scarlette and Melanie, and their relationship over the years.

[SallyG]

I didn't mean to ruffle anyone's feathers or feelings. I am old enough to join the AARP, and have been a member since the 1990s.
Am I fat? I don't think so, even if 30 lbs heavier than age 30. And yes, my doctor tells me to walk and exercise more. W/o the weight gain since I retired. As long as my pants fit, I am not a fatty acid.

Truth and beauty are in the eyes of the beholder.

Maybe its just me, but I do see more things in old books and movies from 40 or more years ago. That's what I meant about age.

My remembrance was from the film, last seen maybe 15-20 years ago. I took a look at the book in the library, and saw the last pages did not have this. They also had a scene that was probably not in the movie.
I intend to read this book someday, and also "Uncle Tom's Cabin", the book by the little lady that started the big war.

It's a shame you have not read the book. If you do read it, forget that you saw the movie. The movie is pure Hollywood.

[RayS]

Thank you for your kind advice. I will move it to the top of my optional list.
There is a large print edition in my library.

Paperbacks often have reduced the size of their type, even in my old books from 40-years ago. I just don't understand it!!!

The changes over the decades will often affect an outlook as to a book.
I'm not afraid of any book, even if it promotes an outdate point of view.

[Yooper]

Andrew's accomplishment was to get from humble beginnings to a relatively affluent position. While this isn't unheard of and many lower class people aspire to more, often the means and/or resolve to accomplish the task are lacking. When every bit of income goes to meet daily needs, the means to improve are certainly lacking, and the lower class remain lower class. Andrew seemed to have come to grips with this early on, he was involved in business at a relatively early age. If an investment was required it would have taken time and frugality to save enough seed money. He also needed the predatory mindset, the killer instinct in the business sense, to rise quickly among the ranks. I wouldn't be surprised if Andrew as a young man was a bit reserved, never quick to jump, observant as a hawk, and quick to press and maximize an advantage.

[RayS]

Arnold Brown's book says Abraham Borden kept the water rights. This would allow the family to be courted and made a partner in any business that needed water power for their mills. That's almost as good as being a big land owner who leases property.

You don't go from being a poor workman to one of the richest men in the county by following the Ten Commandments religiously.

I'll except the few who struck it rich in gold or silver, but that was out West. Even then the big money was made in mining, not surface excavation.

[twinsrwe]

And, just what is the something that you suspected about me, Ray? Am I not allowed to ask questions or state my opinions? I made it quite clear in my previous post that since Andrew was such a penny-pincher, the Borden's having a maid is something that I have always found extremely strange. And, no, I did not overlook the difference in status and class among the women of the 19th century. Perhaps you should re-read my post and pay closer attention to what I actually wrote. I do wonder why you always feel the need to make mountains out of mole hills.

I think I would understand you better if you listed your age. The decades do affect one's outlook, if only from experience.

Now as to YOU, what is your experience? Live w/ an older woman? Your sisters? A roommate? All will affect your outlook, IMO.

The reason for a maid? It would enhance the status of the Borden, like other middle-class people. Its a badge of class, like having a dining room.
The overlooked question is WHEN did the Bordens feel the need for a maid? Before Andy remarried? Just when? (I don't know.)

I do not make mountains out of mole-hills: I don't have the EPA certificates to do this.

Ray, I know the reason the Borden had a maid was because it signified their status; I made this quite clear in my original post by stating: "Granted, being a wealthy family, the "in thing" may have been to employ a maid..." If you had gone back and re-read my post, as I had subjected you do, you would have known this. An explaination as to why they needed a maid, is not needed.

[Kat]

I'm not sure about Abraham and the *water rights*. Abraham was certainly not rich- he was variously given the career of "Yeoman" in one census and "Gardner" in another.

Maybe it is a different Borden to whom you refer?

[RayS]

I'm not sure about Abraham and the *water rights*. Abraham was certainly not rich- he was variously given the career of "Yeoman" in one census and "Gardner" in another.

Maybe it is a different Borden to whom you refer?

I acknowledge that my memory can be faulty. I think it came from Brown's book, re-read a few months ago.
Note that water rights only became valuable when there was a need for water power, the factories being built after 1850?
I'll trust you for an accurate answer. Thank you.