disassociative personality

[Angel]

I am always interested in exploring Lizzie's psychological makeup. Yooper mentioned something about the possibility of her having created two identities- Lizzie and Lizbeth. That led me to read up on disassociative personalities and what I read I found very interesting. I found this in Wikopedia:

"A definition of dissociation:
Dissociation is a complex mental process that provides a coping mechanism for individuals confronting painful and/or traumatic situations. It is characterized by a dis-integration of the ego. Ego integration, or more properly ego integrity, can be defined as a person's ability to successfully incorporate external events or social experiences into their perception, and to then present themselves consistently across those events or social situations. A person unable to do this successfully can experience emotional dysregulation, as well as a potential collapse of ego integrity. In other words, this state of emotional dysregulation is, in some cases, so intense that it can precipitate ego dis-integration, or what, in extreme cases, has come to be referred to diagnostically as dissociation.

Dissociation describes a collapse in ego integrity so profound that the personality is considered to literally break apart. For this reason, dissocation is often referred to as "splitting" or "altering". Less profound presentations of this condition are often referred to clinically as disorganization or decompensation. The difference between a psychotic break and a dissociation, or dissociative break, is that, while someone who is experiencing a dissociation is technically pulling away from a situation that s/he cannot manage, some part of the person remains connected to reality. While the psychotic "breaks" from reality, the dissociative disconnects, but not all the way.

Because the person suffering a dissociation does not completely disengage from his/her reality, s/he may appear to have multiple "personalities". In other words, different "people" (read: personalities) to deal with different situations, but generally speaking, no one person (read: personality) who will retreat altogether.


Potential causes of dissociative identity disorder:
Dissociative identity disorder is attributed to the interaction of several factors: overwhelming stress, dissociative capacity (including the ability to uncouple one's memories, perceptions, or identity from conscious awareness), the enlistment of steps in normal developmental processes as defenses, and, during childhood, the lack of sufficient nurturing and compassion in response to hurtful experiences or lack of protection against further overwhelming experiences. Children are not born with a sense of a unified identity — it develops from many sources and experiences. In overwhelmed children, its development is obstructed, and many parts of what should have blended into a relatively unified identity remain separate. North American studies show that 97 to 98% of adults with dissociative identity disorder report abuse during childhood and that abuse can be documented for 85% of adults and for 95% of children and adolescents with dissociative identity disorder and other closely related forms of dissociative disorder. Although these data establish childhood abuse as a major cause among North American patients (in some cultures, the consequences of war and disaster play a larger role), they do not mean that all such patients were abused or that all the abuses reported by patients with dissociative identity disorder really happened. Some aspects of some reported abuse experiences may prove to be inaccurate. Also, some patients have not been abused but have experienced an important early loss (such as death of a parent), serious medical illness, or other very stressful events. For example, a patient who required many hospitalizations and operations during childhood may have been severely overwhelmed but not abused.

Human development requires that children be able to integrate complicated and different types of information and experiences successfully. As children achieve cohesive, complex appreciations of themselves and others, they go through phases in which different perceptions and emotions are kept segregated. Each developmental phase may be used to generate different selves. Not every child who experiences abuse or major loss or trauma has the capacity to develop multiple personalities. Patients with dissociative identity disorder can be easily hypnotized. This capacity, closely related to the capacity to dissociate, is thought to be a factor in the development of the disorder. However, most children who have these capacities also have normal adaptive mechanisms, and most are sufficiently protected and soothed by adults to prevent development of dissociative identity disorder."

In "Lizzie Borden Unlocked" online it says:

"She confided in her friend Alice Russell the night before the murders, "I feel as if I wanted to sleep with my eyes half open -- with one eye open half the time -- for fear they will burn the house down over us (Sullivan, 99)," and "I am afraid somebody will do something. I don't know but what somebody will do something."
When Alice Russell asked what, Lizzie said, "Well, I don't know. I feel depressed. I feel as if something was hanging over me at times, no matter where I am. When I was at Marion, the girls were laughing and talking and having a good time, and this feeling came over me, and one of them spoke and said, 'Lizzie, why don't you talk?' I don't know what was said after that (Sullivan, 97)." Lizzie Borden seemed only partially aware of the turmoil boiling inside her.
Certainly the mind of Lizzie Borden seemed to hold two entirely different personalities. While one kept awake with one eye open, the other, deep inside her, slept."
Perhaps the paradox of having the reality of wealth but the appearance of poverty drove Lizzie to develop two personalities to cope with this contradiction. Simultaneously, she appears the modest churchgoing spinster and the willful, extravagant heiress. A strong-willed, covetous nature masked as virtue was all part of the Borden legacy."
Lizzie never grasped the appropriate. When the police finally arrived after the murders, Lizzie acted more like a concerned citizen than a daughter in shock. Much was made of her disinterest. Adelaide Churchill, who had gone up for the sheets and found Abby, swore, "I never saw Lizzie in tears that morning at any time (Sullivan, 95)." Bridget swore that she never said Lizzie was crying at any time (Sullivan, 92). Captain Harrington declared, "She was not in tears at any part of the interview. Her voice was at all times steady (Sullivan, 111)." One can almost hear the tongues of Fall River wagging."

[Yooper]

This might explain the Jekyll/Hyde nature of the murderer. There was more time to calm down after Abby's murder than Andrew's, but it still called for a great deal of self-control, unless the "personality change" was involuntary.

[Richard]

My problem with Lizzie on Aug 4 has always been why she didn't immediately tell the police what she had been telling Alice Russell the night before. Why didn't she started saying things like, "Over the last few days I felt that something like this was going to happen!" All her panic and fear from the night before was dropped, and she was acting as if she was as surprised as everyone else, perhaps even less so.

At her inquest, she was asked if she knew of anyone that would want to harm her father, and she basically blew off the question, as if the only things that had happened was an angry man who wanted to rent a property from her father, and a shadow in the backyard as she was coming home one night. none of the wide-spread paranoia that she exhibited at Alice Russell's house on the evening of Aug 3.

This has always been a mystery.

[Yooper]

Yes, Lizzie often seems to be at odds with herself!

[snokkums]

I think the problem I have Lizzie on the 4th, was that she called everyone else first before she called the police. I mean, she had the maid go get the doctor, then didn't she have Mrs. Russell come to the house?

I think that the dissaccositive disorder might fit well with lizzie. Might explain why she couldn't get her story as to what she was doing at the time of the murders, and why she was so calm.

[RayS]

My problem with Lizzie on Aug 4 has always been why she didn't immediately tell the police what she had been telling Alice Russell the night before. Why didn't she started saying things like, "Over the last few days I felt that something like this was going to happen!" All her panic and fear from the night before was dropped, and she was acting as if she was as surprised as everyone else, perhaps even less so.

At her inquest, she was asked if she knew of anyone that would want to harm her father, and she basically blew off the question, as if the only things that had happened was an angry man who wanted to rent a property from her father, and a shadow in the backyard as she was coming home one night. none of the wide-spread paranoia that she exhibited at Alice Russell's house on the evening of Aug 3.

This has always been a mystery.

I don't know about any consultation wioth her lawyer.
But LAB is throwing out hints that she knew of somebody who had a fight with her father, and may have been skulking around the house after dark, who had no legitimate business there.
You do know about the danger from any prowler in the dark?

[Yooper]

If Lizzie felt threatened, why didn't she go to the authorities with it?

[snokkums]

My problem with Lizzie on Aug 4 has always been why she didn't immediately tell the police what she had been telling Alice Russell the night before. Why didn't she started saying things like, "Over the last few days I felt that something like this was going to happen!" All her panic and fear from the night before was dropped, and she was acting as if she was as surprised as everyone else, perhaps even less so.

At her inquest, she was asked if she knew of anyone that would want to harm her father, and she basically blew off the question, as if the only things that had happened was an angry man who wanted to rent a property from her father, and a shadow in the backyard as she was coming home one night. none of the wide-spread paranoia that she exhibited at Alice Russell's house on the evening of Aug 3.

This has always been a mystery.

I don't know about any consultation wioth her lawyer.
But LAB is throwing out hints that she knew of somebody who had a fight with her father, and may have been skulking around the house after dark, who had no legitimate business there.
You do know about the danger from any prowler in the dark?

My whole problem with lizzie with on that day.She never got hold of the police first. She sent Bridget out for the doctor and Mrs. Russell. She was calling everyone else but the cops.

[Yooper]

My problem with Lizzie on Aug 4 has always been why she didn't immediately tell the police what she had been telling Alice Russell the night before. Why didn't she started saying things like, "Over the last few days I felt that something like this was going to happen!" All her panic and fear from the night before was dropped, and she was acting as if she was as surprised as everyone else, perhaps even less so.

At her inquest, she was asked if she knew of anyone that would want to harm her father, and she basically blew off the question, as if the only things that had happened was an angry man who wanted to rent a property from her father, and a shadow in the backyard as she was coming home one night. none of the wide-spread paranoia that she exhibited at Alice Russell's house on the evening of Aug 3.

This has always been a mystery.

I don't know about any consultation wioth her lawyer.
But LAB is throwing out hints that she knew of somebody who had a fight with her father, and may have been skulking around the house after dark, who had no legitimate business there.
You do know about the danger from any prowler in the dark?

My whole problem with lizzie with on that day.She never got hold of the police first. She sent Bridget out for the doctor and Mrs. Russell. She was calling everyone else but the cops.

I have to agree, not only did she not think of the police, she didn't run for help at all! She sent Bridget and Mrs. Churchill on errands!

[Smudgeman]

Yes, Lizzie took total control over the murder scene, she didn't panic or leave, but she made sure others did what she said while she rested at the roost. "Get a doctor, you go here, but I am staying put." Do you think she did this because the murder weapon was still on the premises? Maybe she had some unfinished business and knew she couldn't leave until it was done, like get rid of the weapon or evidence? There was a good reason Lizzie didn't leave the house.

[1bigsteve]

Good point, Scott.

You would think Lizzie would be the first one out the door when she found the body not knowing whether or not the killer was still inside. But she stayed inside.

-1bigsteve (o:

[Smudgeman]

Well, we know she wanted Bridget to leave, so I don't think she was thrilled when the others arrived to assist her. She probably wished she had some more "alone time". If Lizzie was the killer, and I think she was, she probably had something to attend to, so she was not about to leave her post.

[Yooper]

Lizzie may have had a bit of time to herself while Mrs. Churchill was across the street. This was after Bridget was sent for Alice Russell. If Lizzie was innocent, and Bridget was the only person responding to her with a dead body in the house, why would she wait at the bottom of the stairs for her? Without a shotgun, no less!

[Smudgeman]

Because she was probably in shock and disbelief at what she had done.

[Yooper]

Probably so, I think Lizzie knew she was perfectly safe, she knew exactly where the murderer was!

[sguthmann]

Well, we know she wanted Bridget to leave, so I don't think she was thrilled when the others arrived to assist her. She probably wished she had some more "alone time". If Lizzie was the killer, and I think she was, she probably had something to attend to, so she was not about to leave her post.

Re: Lizzie not being thrilled when "help" showed up, and wanting more "alone time," keep in mind that it was Lizzie herself who controlled when the crime was reported, when help was sent for, etc. She was the one to sound the alarm, she had the most control of the situation. She may not have been completely ready, but she must've thought it was as good a time as any to let the news out that there had been a murder at the Borden residence.

But why she didn't think to leave the house - at least wait outside - to make it seem more plausible that she had innocently "come upon" the dreadful scene, I don't know. It very well may be that there was some last minute item to take care of while Bridget was getting help. Perhaps she simply overlooked that little detail that it would be better for her and her story in the long run if she had not stayed in the house.

There are a lot of "why did/didn't she..."'s in this fascinating case!

[Yooper]

The fact that Lizzie never feared any harm is a critical point in the case. She had ample reason to do so, if she was innocent she came nearly within arm's length of having been killed herself.

Lizzie told both Andrew and Bridget that Abby was out of the house. She went to the barn where she neither saw nor heard anything with respect to the house, according to Lizzie on the 4th, from page 5 of the witness statements. Lizzie went into the house, found Andrew, and called for Bridget. She later insisted that she thought she heard Abby come in. This could only have happened in the time it took her to go from the kitchen to the sitting room and back. The front door was locked and dead-bolted according to officer Allen, page 494 of the trial testimony, Andrew must have locked it when Bridget let him in. Lizzie couldn't have heard the front door, only the rear door which she had just used herself. There was no other opportunity for Lizzie to have heard Abby arrive if she had been in the barn and heard nothing from there.

This means, if what Lizzie heard was an intruder leaving rather than Abby arriving, the intruder had hidden in the sink room, in the stairwells, or, less likely, in the pantry while Lizzie came in from the barn. She was only a short distance from the murderer when she went in the house. Lizzie, for some reason, never realized this. When Abby was found upstairs in the guest room rather than in the rear of the house, it should have dawned on Lizzie what she had really heard rather than what she thought she heard, if she was telling the truth.

Of course this intruder now must not only show an ability to control blind rage for a period of time between killings, but he must also show a degree of stupidity. When Lizzie went to the barn for 15-20 minutes, Andrew was asleep in the sitting room. Would the killer wait a few minutes to kill Andrew, not knowing how long Lizzie (or anyone else) would be away, or would the killer get right to work after the house was clear? If I had been the killer, I would not waste a second. The killer then waits the balance of 15-20 minutes before leaving the scene! He waits for Lizzie to come in the house before leaving! If it was me, I would have wasted NO time leaving after killing Andrew. The fact that he did not kill Lizzie when she came in was not a snap decision, he had ample time for that between Abby and Andrew if necessary. Why let Lizzie go and have to hide for an hour and a half?

[Nadzieja]

Hi, I'm just starting to read materials, most of which have been suggested in these forums. I find Lizzie very cold in some instances. I know she liked to control things, but could she also be one of those people who don't feel. I think they are called sociopaths. I know she fainted at trial but she probably never saw a skull before especially of a person she knew. If she did this she knew she was in trouble and had to be really straight thinking in order to get through all the events that happened. Back then they didn't have the exposure like we have with news & tv, so you would think just seeing that type of death would have sent her into hysteria. Well, I'll keep reading, the more I read the more interesting this gets.