Lizzie Borden: A private disgrace

[snokkums]

Has any one read the book by Victoria Lincoln called: "Lizzie Borden, A private disgrace?"

I have just ordered it and wondered if it was any good.

[theebmonique]

Here are some links to the threads where we discused the book chapter by chapter:

1:
viewtopic.php?t=623&highlight=

2:
viewtopic.php?t=644&highlight=

3:
viewtopic.php?t=664&highlight=

4:
viewtopic.php?t=684&highlight=

5:
viewtopic.php?t=722&highlight=

6:
viewtopic.php?t=805&highlight=





Tracy...

[1bigsteve]

It's about as good as any other book, Snokks. Much more plausable than Brown's book. I liked it. I didn't swallow the whole thing but it has some ideas worth noting.

-1bigsteve (o:

[snokkums]

Cool, at least my money wasn't spend badly. Thought maybe I spend it on a book not worth having.

[SallyG]

I read that book years ago. I never subscribed to Lincoln's epilepsy scenario, but other than that, it's an entertaining book. You should enjoy it.

[1bigsteve]

I think the book is well worth having, Snokks. Her book is as good as the others and better than some. I have two copies, one slightly smaller than the other.

Lincoln has some ideas that sound reasonable, much more reasonable then what Arnold Brown came up with with all his "secret son", secret meetings, political agendas and all that far-out type of unproven stuff. I'm surprised Brown didn't throw in Lee H. Oswald and his antique rifle for good measure. Most murders are simple affairs. Arnold turned the Borden case into a Barnum & Baily production.

Sshhh, wait... is that RayS I hear coming? Quick, lets get out of here...

-1bigsteve (o:

[RayS]

If only you read Arnold Brown's book you would know how very wrong you are. Brown's remarks about the Mellen House Gang are going on today, but maybe not about covering up a murder.

You can read F. Lee Bailey's "The Defense Never Rests" to learn how a publisher was falsely charged with murder to silence him after he wrote how a local Prosecutor was connected to organized crime. It still goes on, your results may vary.
Joe Domanick's book tells about the connections in the Los Angeles of the 1930s and 1940s. The Black Dahlia scandal let to reforms in the police department and DA's office. This is in the history books.

Brown was retired in FLA when he came across the Hawthorne memoirs. He just followed the story, not unlike Bernstein & Woodward.

[RayS]

I read that book years ago. I never subscribed to Lincoln's epilepsy scenario, but other than that, it's an entertaining book. You should enjoy it.

THAT seems to be copied from a Raymond Chandler novel, "The Big Sleep". That's a good mystery novel.

[1bigsteve]

If only you read Arnold Brown's book you would know how very wrong you are. Brown's remarks about the Mellen House Gang are going on today, but maybe not about covering up a murder.

You can read F. Lee Bailey's "The Defense Never Rests" to learn how a publisher was falsely charged with murder to silence him after he wrote how a local Prosecutor was connected to organized crime. It still goes on, your results may vary.
Joe Domanick's book tells about the connections in the Los Angeles of the 1930s and 1940s. The Black Dahlia scandal let to reforms in the police department and DA's office. This is in the history books.

Brown was retired in FLA when he came across the Hawthorne memoirs. He just followed the story, not unlike Bernstein & Woodward.

I did read Arnold's book. We have all read Arnold's book. The problem is he offered no proof. Sure some of his ideas may be right but without proof we can not put much faith in what he says. If someone tells me the moon is made of Swiss cheese but offers no proof, why should I believe him? Who is worse, the fool or the fool who follows him?

Lincoln's book is much more believeable but at the same time she offers no real proof either. Bernstein and Woodward produced facts that could be verified. Arnold Brown never did.

I think you will enjoy Lincoln's book, Snokks. Especially the part about hidding the bloody dress inside a clean dress on the same hanger. I think that was how she put it.

-1bigsteve (o:

[stuartwsa]

Her theories aside, I liked the way Lincoln was able to bring period Fall River to life for us and help us understand the underpinnings of Fall River Society.

[snokkums]

I never would have thought of putting the bloody dress under a clean one on the hanger. I guess when you are desprate, you'll do anything.

[RayS]

If my memory is correct, I remember reading somewhere that the police searched each garment or dress by taking them down, turning them inside out, etc. SOP.
Vicky just invented that story, as you would expect from a professional novelist.

Ever notice that Arnold Brown was not a professional writer?

[Bob Gutowski]

At this point, I'm not even sure ARNOLD BROWN existed!

Miss Lincoln's book is beautifully written and very evocative of old Fall River, but she certainly does not restrain herself from, as writers often do, making things up. I love this book and re-read it every few years, but I no longer buy it hook, line, and (ahem!) sinker.

[Allen]

If my memory is correct, I remember reading somewhere that the police searched each garment or dress by taking them down, turning them inside out, etc. SOP.
Vicky just invented that story, as you would expect from a professional novelist.

Ever notice that Arnold Brown was not a professional writer?

I am not quite sure that on the day of the murders the police did anything to the dresses hanging in that closet besides give them a casual once over.

[RayS]

If my memory is correct, I remember reading somewhere that the police searched each garment or dress by taking them down, turning them inside out, etc. SOP.
Vicky just invented that story, as you would expect from a professional novelist.

Ever notice that Arnold Brown was not a professional writer?

I am not quite sure that on the day of the murders the police did anything to the dresses hanging in that closet besides give them a casual once over.

I never said the police began searching the first day, and don't know of any writer who said that.
If the murders were an outside job, the police would not be looking for clues inside the house. IMO
Only the next day did they begin to search the house. This is good practice, just to cover all bases, just in case.

[Yooper]

If my memory is correct, I remember reading somewhere that the police searched each garment or dress by taking them down, turning them inside out, etc. SOP.
Vicky just invented that story, as you would expect from a professional novelist.

Ever notice that Arnold Brown was not a professional writer?

I am not quite sure that on the day of the murders the police did anything to the dresses hanging in that closet besides give them a casual once over.

I never said the police began searching the first day, and don't know of any writer who said that.
If the murders were an outside job, the police would not be looking for clues inside the house. IMO
Only the next day did they begin to search the house. This is good practice, just to cover all bases, just in case.

If the police suspected an intruder, they might not have been looking closely for blood evidence on dresses, that's correct. There may have been a lack of coordination among the police at the crime scene. One officer suspected Lizzie due to her "stepmother" comment during questioning and the excessive heat in the barn loft at the time. If the officer in charge did not immediately share that view, he might not have directed a thorough search of closets and other private areas. It is possible that once the police had a chance to compare notes the focus changed to an inside job, especially if what they had found did not support their suspicions of an outside job.

[RayS]

...
I never said the police began searching the first day, and don't know of any writer who said that.
If the murders were an outside job, the police would not be looking for clues inside the house. IMO
Only the next day did they begin to search the house. This is good practice, just to cover all bases, just in case.

If the police suspected an intruder, they might not have been looking closely for blood evidence on dresses, that's correct. There may have been a lack of coordination among the police at the crime scene. One officer suspected Lizzie due to her "stepmother" comment during questioning and the excessive heat in the barn loft at the time. If the officer in charge did not immediately share that view, he might not have directed a thorough search of closets and other private areas. It is possible that once the police had a chance to compare notes the focus changed to an inside job, especially if what they had found did not support their suspicions of an outside job.

Didn't the Police Chief show up around 1pm to personally take charge?
A high-level crime requires diplomatic handling.
If I'm wrong, many will point this out.

[Yooper]

...
I never said the police began searching the first day, and don't know of any writer who said that.
If the murders were an outside job, the police would not be looking for clues inside the house. IMO
Only the next day did they begin to search the house. This is good practice, just to cover all bases, just in case.

If the police suspected an intruder, they might not have been looking closely for blood evidence on dresses, that's correct. There may have been a lack of coordination among the police at the crime scene. One officer suspected Lizzie due to her "stepmother" comment during questioning and the excessive heat in the barn loft at the time. If the officer in charge did not immediately share that view, he might not have directed a thorough search of closets and other private areas. It is possible that once the police had a chance to compare notes the focus changed to an inside job, especially if what they had found did not support their suspicions of an outside job.

Didn't the Police Chief show up around 1pm to personally take charge?
A high-level crime requires diplomatic handling.
If I'm wrong, many will point this out.

That sounds about right, he wasn't there before several other officers had reached the scene, in any case. I have the impression that his first task might have been to make order out of chaos. Bystanders, the media, officers who may or may not have had a specific procedure to follow, etc. He would likely have followed his first instincts which probably meant he would think of a male intruder first, and guide the investigation accordingly. He might also try to be considerate of a helpless female victim of a violent tragedy. He must also keep track of what others are doing and saying and juggle all this input into some kind of order, some priority list. Once the dust has settled, he can decide what has merit. I think the police would be the least likely to be encumbered with the idea that the crime was beyond female capability. They would reject that limitation, and probably did so by the second day.

[RayS]

That sounds about right, he wasn't there before several other officers had reached the scene, in any case. I have the impression that his first task might have been to make order out of chaos. Bystanders, the media, officers who may or may not have had a specific procedure to follow, etc. He would likely have followed his first instincts which probably meant he would think of a male intruder first, and guide the investigation accordingly. He might also try to be considerate of a helpless female victim of a violent tragedy. He must also keep track of what others are doing and saying and juggle all this input into some kind of order, some priority list. Once the dust has settled, he can decide what has merit. I think the police would be the least likely to be encumbered with the idea that the crime was beyond female capability. They would reject that limitation, and probably did so by the second day.

The most important fact is not mentioned by all the authors. There was a spontaneous general strike when most of the factory hands left work to stand around in the street to gawk at the house. They had to close the factory because they could not run, thus causing a loss of production.

Do you remember what happened on the afternoon of 11-22-1963? Everybody was just talking about the event, until they let us out early around 3pm. No work was possible after this stunning news.

The #1 priority was to find a suspect so people would return to work. In some other cases the need is to arrest a suspect, even if they have to release him months later "for lack of evidence". The arrest quiets the upset people. Not that I've seen this in recent decades.

Does anyone remember the upset in New York City in 1963 when a girl (or two?) were found stabbed to death in their apartments? I think in April.

[RayS]

That sounds about right, he wasn't there before several other officers had reached the scene, in any case. I have the impression that his first task might have been to make order out of chaos. Bystanders, the media, officers who may or may not have had a specific procedure to follow, etc. He would likely have followed his first instincts which probably meant he would think of a male intruder first, and guide the investigation accordingly. He might also try to be considerate of a helpless female victim of a violent tragedy. He must also keep track of what others are doing and saying and juggle all this input into some kind of order, some priority list. Once the dust has settled, he can decide what has merit. I think the police would be the least likely to be encumbered with the idea that the crime was beyond female capability. They would reject that limitation, and probably did so by the second day.

The most important fact is not mentioned by all the authors. There was a spontaneous general strike when most of the factory hands left work to stand around in the street to gawk at the house. They had to close the factory because they could not run, thus causing a loss of production.

Do you remember what happened on the afternoon of 11-22-1963? Everybody was just talking about the event, until they let us out early around 3pm. No work was possible after this stunning news.

The #1 priority was to find a suspect so people would return to work. In some other cases the need is to arrest a suspect, even if they have to release him months later "for lack of evidence". The arrest quiets the upset people. Not that I've seen this in recent decades.

Does anyone remember the upset in New York City in 1963 when a girl (or two?) were found stabbed to death in their apartments? I think in April.

[Yooper]

If there had been a general strike, the police would have had to trade off investigative manpower for crowd control, further limiting the investigation. The immediate reserves would probably be limited because of the police picnic that day. They couldn't have the entire available force at the Borden residence, that would mean abandoning the rest of Fall River and crooks would have a field day if they were aware of it.

There is only a limited amount of time a mill worker can afford to take off to satisfy curiosity. If the police had not arrested anyone by the second day, and if the strike had abated by then, perhaps it wasn't as imperative to make an arrest. I'm sure there was still a great amount of pressure to solve the crime due to the high profile of it.

[Harry]

I've looked at this spontaneous "strike" in the books. So far only Kent, Radin and Lincoln touch upon it. I can find little or nothing in the newspapers about it and that's where I imagine I would have found it. I'll keep looking though.

Personally, I have my doubts that it affected the mills to any great extent. In a time where workers toiled 50-60 hours a week to make a living I find it hard to believe they would sacrifice even a half day's wages, much less a weeks. They would also put their job at great risk as there was no shortage of immigrant workers seeking jobs. I can't believe the mill owners were that tolerant.

I'm not doubting there were crowds on the street (despite Uncle John ) but there source is what I have problems with.

EDIT here: I also found it Spiering.

[RayS]

Surely we all know certain news is kept out of the newspapers, or relegated to the back pages?
Any news about a work stoppage would have commercial impact on the mills of FR. Best not to spread this information around.

I remember the writers saying the arrest of a suspect quieted the millworkers and other people.

PS The book by Arnold Brown also mentions it, as I remember.

[Harry]

Amazing, another conspiracy to keep the news out of the papers! The Fall River Globe, no friend of the establishment, would not have hesitated 5 minutes to print that type of news. The papers were begging for news the first day.

And as far as I can see Brown's book doesn't mention a general strike. You are free to show me where.

The only description I could find about the type of crowd that gathered in front of the Borden house on the 4th appeared in the Fall River Globe, dated the 4th:

"Brokers, mill treasurers and business men crowded about the house and asked all sorts of information about the case."

Hardly sounds like plain mill workers, does it?

[Yooper]

Amazing, another conspiracy to keep the news out of the papers! The Fall River Globe, no friend of the establishment, would not have hesitated 5 minutes to print that type of news. The papers were begging for news the first day.

And as far as I can see Brown's book doesn't mention a general strike. You are free to show me where.

The only description I could find about the type of crowd that gathered in front of the Borden house on the 4th appeared in the Fall River Globe, dated the 4th:

"Brokers, mill treasurers and business men crowded about the house and asked all sorts of information about the case."

Hardly sounds like plain mill workers, does it?

Yes, it sounds more like people who might well have known Andrew Borden. Less the result of idle curiosity because of that.

[Nadzieja]

I just started reading 40 Whacks. So far so good, but one thing I'd like to ask. Maybe it's just me but I find it a little strange that Abby didn't say exactly where she was going. Even just to let them know where she was in case she was needed at home. It just seems natural to say something like----I'm going to help (so & so) because they are ill. Of course the note idea could be the way that Lizzie explained Abby's absence. Of course being the newbie I'm sure I could be thinking the wrong way.

[Yooper]

There is no right or wrong way to think, Nadzieja, if we all thought the same way, it wouldn't be much of a forum! I seem to remember testimony that Abby was in the habit of telling Bridget if she had to go somewhere. The fact that she didn't on this occasion, and no one knew where she had gone makes the note story highly suspicious. In fact, there is nothing concrete to support it, only Lizzie's word.

[Steveads2004]

I have noticed that many here are of one mind, the Lizzie Did It crowd I call it. Thank goodness for Ray S, a voice of reason in opposition. The idea that Lizzie was but a minor player in the drama until the discovery of Andrew dead is one that I give great creedence to. Brown's book is disparaged here by many, but his thesis stands as the only likely solution, the outsider did it. His arguments are persuasive and his books success speaks to the clarity of his conclusions.

[Bob Gutowski]

Oh, dear.

[Yooper]

Yes, Bob, that was (more or less) my reaction, too!

[Harry]

Well said, Bob.

And in two words, too! Very efficient.

[RayS]

I have noticed that many here are of one mind, the Lizzie Did It crowd I call it. Thank goodness for Ray S, a voice of reason in opposition. The idea that Lizzie was but a minor player in the drama until the discovery of Andrew dead is one that I give great creedence to. Brown's book is disparaged here by many, but his thesis stands as the only likely solution, the outsider did it. His arguments are persuasive and his books success speaks to the clarity of his conclusions.

You know why Brown's Theory is correct, if unprovable?
Just read other true crime books. The Marilyn Sheppard Murder Case is a prime example of a person killed by an intruder.
There was no murder weapon left in the house, her husband did not have blood spatter on his pants, etc. Dr. Paul Kirk's analysis holds true today after fifty years. See Paul Holmes' 1961 book.

The facts say an intruder did it. I think it is reasonable to say Lizzie knew more than she said, she covered it up to save Uncle John and what was left of Andy's reputation. But I can't prove it.

If you say the story about a will that didn't mention him, keep in mind that Correio killed because he didn't get the pay owed him.

If you want a better theory, see Brown's Theory Part 5.

[Kat]

Ray, I must say you have been posting a bit of bologna. I would caution members to check what he says before replying because it only intensifies the errors:

“I never said the police began searching the first day, and don't know of any writer who said that.
If the murders were an outside job, the police would not be looking for clues inside the house. IMO
Only the next day did they begin to search the house. This is good practice, just to cover all bases, just in case.”--Ray

And

“I remember reading somewhere that the police searched each garment or dress by taking them down, turning them inside out, etc. SOP.”--Ray

---The police search was Thursday. Read the trial. Friday (what you call “only the next day”) was not much of a search except on the outside- the barn was searched. In fact, we’re not sure the police were in the house at all on Friday, other than to collect the axes and hatchets set aside earlier, from the cellar. They did that very early in the morning.
Saturday was the biggest search and started after the family left the house to go with the bodies to the cemetery.

As for searching the dresses- they were looked at, except for a couple of fancy dresses in the far corner of the girl’s clothes press at the top of the stairs.

Trial
Seaver
744
Q. Now, Mr. Seaver, on the Saturday you made some search with reference to dresses, did you?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Or examination of dresses, I ought to put it?
A. Yes, sir; in one clothes press.

Q. You were with Mr. Desmond at that time, or with the party?

Page 745

A. I was with Capt. Desmond up in the garret in the first place, part of the time; in fact, most of the time that we were up there.

Q. Where were the dresses that you examined, for that is all I care to call attention to?
A. They were in the large closet over the front hall.

Q. Won't you describe the character of your examination of those dresses on the Saturday?
A. I first went into the closet and the closet blinds were shut, that is, the outside blinds. I opened the blinds---there were clothes around the window---hoisted the window and took the cloth down and opened the blinds, and then I went to the hooks. Capt. Fleet was there with me. He had gone in two or three minutes before me.

Q. (By Mr. Robinson.) A little louder, please?
A. Capt. Fleet was there with me, and I commenced on the hooks and took each dress, with the exception of two or three in the corner, and passed them to Capt. Fleet, he being near the window, and he examined them as well as myself, he more thoroughly than myself, and I took each garment then and hung it back as I found them; all with the exception of two or three which were heavy or silk dresses, in the corner. I didn't pass those down. I just looked at them and let them remain as they were.

Q. (By Mr. Moody.) Those were silk dresses?
A. Those were silk dresses, I am very sure, heavy dresses, and they hung there, and I didn't disturb them at all.

Page 746

Q. Did you discover anything upon any of those dresses?
A. I did not.

Q. Did you see a light blue dress, diamond spots upon it, and paint around the bottom of the dress and on its front?
A. I did not.

Q. Did you make a sufficiently careful examination to have discovered such a dress, so marked with paint, if it had been there?
A. I did

[Kat]

I think Harry and Yooper have put paid to this *general strike* bologna. Harry tracked it down to Radin, I believe, who offered no support for the statement. Meaning Radin was first, and of course the other's followed- like Lincoln and Spiering and Ray. (There's a trio for you!)

Harry also showed me all the businesses that existed on Second Street at the time and we discussed how just some of those interested bystanders coming outside to eat their dinner (maybe from their dinner pail or a sandwhich) around noon would hear of this and possibly collect and discuss the rumors. Just Second Street workers on breaks would be a large body of people.

[Kat]

It's also a mystery- well, maybe not- as to how a Victoria Lincoln topic has turned into a Kent and Brown one. Of course, Radin is mentioned, so there we have it! A topic gone off the rails!

[Yooper]

I think Harry and Yooper have put paid to this *general strike* bologna. Harry tracked it down to Radin, I believe, who offered no support for the statement. Meaning Radin was first, and of course the other's followed- like Lincoln and Spiering and Ray. (There's a trio for you!)

Harry also showed me all the businesses that existed on Second Street at the time and we discussed how just some of those interested bystanders coming outside to eat their dinner (maybe from their dinner pail or a sandwhich) around noon would hear of this and possibly collect and discuss the rumors. Just Second Street workers on breaks would be a large body of people.

Is there anything available in the way of a sketch or map showing the structures on Second Street in 1892 and what they were used for? I have the habit of envisioning that area as more residential than it probably was. If it was a mixture of businesses and residences, we might have a better idea of how busy the street may have been, and how likely it was that an intruder could have escaped unnoticed.

[RayS]

I think Harry and Yooper have put paid to this *general strike* bologna. Harry tracked it down to Radin, I believe, who offered no support for the statement. Meaning Radin was first, and of course the other's followed- like Lincoln and Spiering and Ray. (There's a trio for you!)

Harry also showed me all the businesses that existed on Second Street at the time and we discussed how just some of those interested bystanders coming outside to eat their dinner (maybe from their dinner pail or a sandwhich) around noon would hear of this and possibly collect and discuss the rumors. Just Second Street workers on breaks would be a large body of people.

Not for an objective viewer!!! How can anyone believe a poster on this site compared to published responsible authors???

That's like someone contradicting the many reports of a very hot August day because of something he claimed he found in a newspaper!!!
WHERE is the provenance for a printed claim?

If everyone who were eyewitnesses at the time said it was very hot, it ws very hot, no matter what an unknown person claims who might not have been there at the time. QED

But you are still free to disagree with me. Just don't expect any court of law to take an unproven newspaper report over the testimony of those who were there at the time.

Yes, its another disagreement by me.

[Yooper]

I think Harry and Yooper have put paid to this *general strike* bologna. Harry tracked it down to Radin, I believe, who offered no support for the statement. Meaning Radin was first, and of course the other's followed- like Lincoln and Spiering and Ray. (There's a trio for you!)

Harry also showed me all the businesses that existed on Second Street at the time and we discussed how just some of those interested bystanders coming outside to eat their dinner (maybe from their dinner pail or a sandwhich) around noon would hear of this and possibly collect and discuss the rumors. Just Second Street workers on breaks would be a large body of people.

Not for an objective viewer!!! How can anyone believe a poster on this site compared to published responsible authors???

That's like someone contradicting the many reports of a very hot August day because of something he claimed he found in a newspaper!!!
WHERE is the provenance for a printed claim?

If everyone who were eyewitnesses at the time said it was very hot, it ws very hot, no matter what an unknown person claims who might not have been there at the time. QED

But you are still free to disagree with me. Just don't expect any court of law to take an unproven newspaper report over the testimony of those who were there at the time.

Yes, its another disagreement by me.

So, everything which has been published is true?

[Harry]

Yooper, why do you bother even responding. It's a 100% total waste of your time.

Its okay to accept Henry Hawthorne's papers (if they ever existed) as the source of all this great wisdom. No one other than Brown or Pete Peterson apparently has ever seen them.

Actually it was a Martian ship that landed in the Borden's yard on Aug. 4th. They wouldn't let the ship refuel on the vinegar in the cellar which ticked off the Martians. (Yup, their ships are powered by vinegar! )

The Casaba House gang covered it all up as they were secret Martians themselves.

Maybe I'll write a book.

[Yooper]

You're perfectly right Harry, I guess I just haven't completely given up the hope of jump-starting a viable thought process. It really does seem like a lost cause.

Don't forget the general strike. That had to be the Martian mill workers arriving to help search for vinegar.

[Kat]

Yooper, if you have Rebello you can get an idea of the businesses on Second Street. Harry has used the City Directory and has compiled quite a list. He tells me there were 2 Chinese laundries on Second Street and I think a dance hall?
You'd be surprised!

[Steveads2004]

Once again Ray is the voice of reason! Of course those who have blinders on and refuse to look at the obvious truth will deny the facts and point to any scrap of ephemera to support their Lizzie did it mentality. Keep up the good work Ray! Truth is its own reward.

[Yooper]

Once again Ray is the voice of reason! Of course those who have blinders on and refuse to look at the obvious truth will deny the facts and point to any scrap of ephemera to support their Lizzie did it mentality. Keep up the good work Ray! Truth is its own reward.

This REALLY gets the wheels turning, doesn't it?

[SallyG]

Once again Ray is the voice of reason! Of course those who have blinders on and refuse to look at the obvious truth will deny the facts and point to any scrap of ephemera to support their Lizzie did it mentality. Keep up the good work Ray! Truth is its own reward.

This REALLY gets the wheels turning, doesn't it?

Looks like Ray is getting his own fan club.

[RayS]

Once again Ray is the voice of reason! Of course those who have blinders on and refuse to look at the obvious truth will deny the facts and point to any scrap of ephemera to support their Lizzie did it mentality. Keep up the good work Ray! Truth is its own reward.

Thanks for the advice. I know I am not likely to convince the brain-washed, but like to try to exercise my wit and memory.

I first read about the general strike in Spiering (not a 100% reliable source in all things). But the very fact he mentioned this (the crowds around the house should be accepted by all) reminded me of things from yesteryear when a fight or killing would cause crowds to gather.

Doesn't this still happen today?

[Allen]

If anyone would like to view the 1922 yearbook photo of Miss Victoria Endicott Lincoln from B.M.C Durfee High School it can be viewed at this link by clicking on the 1922 Durfee Record. It is a pdf download and it may take just a bit for the page to actually open. It is so strange to know this picture was taken at a time when Lizzie Andrew Borden was actually still very much alive in Fall River.

http://www.sailsinc.org/durfee/yearbooks.htm

It says of Miss Lincoln next to the yearbook photograph:

Victoria Endicott Lincoln
"Vic"

Editor in Chief Record Book 4; Hilltop Staff 3-4.

In the literary circles of Durfee, "Vic" is the password. Class entymologist, encyclopedia and rhetorician, critic and writer, - in short a literary genius. Vic's delicate poems are the cream of Durfee's literary success. However she does not confine her thoughts to writing but frankly admits she likes to talk, and accept when the Aeneid is the subject she rarely denies herself the pleasure. Sometimes there is an innocent touch of humor in her conversations but more often her voice hints of delicate sentiments and charming personality. There are so few her type.

The most delightful thing about Vic is her irresponsibility. Miss Lincoln's papers and pencils, books, hats, coats and glasses may be picked up at odd moments almost anywhere in Durfee. She, herself, is engaged in a continual search for some of them, but even this does not disturb her enviable equanimity.

Vic will devote herself to writing after graduating from Radcliff.

[Allen]

Btw in looking through these yearbooks I wonder how many people we could find who somehow have a link to this case? Just in casual perusal I seem to have found the son of Dr. Dolan in the 1912 yearbook. I think to actual see pictures of these people is so very interesting.

[Susan]

Thanks for the wonderful link, Melissa, it was incredible to finally have a face to go with Victoria's name! Yes, there are so many last names in those yearbooks that are recognizable it would be interesting to find out if any of them are directly related to the players in the Borden saga; I've found an Almy, Buffinton, Poole, and of course, Bordens.

[doug65oh]

Gotta love the writeup in the 1912 annual on young Dolan:

"Bill" is a College Preparatory student but does not yet know whether he will "pursue" his studies further. He vouches the startling information
that when he gets out into life he is going to "work";this is contrary to all early indications.

He further adds that he desires to engage in the automobile business. There is little doubt but that he "auto" make good, provided he does not
get "tired" too often.

As can readily be imagined his hobby is "autos" yet he has a fulsome respect for things equestrian . "A horse, a horse, my auto for a horse."

(I'd bet the good Doctor had his hands full with that boy!!)

There's a bit of irony though: I see from the archives that at the time of his decease, Doctor Dolan left four children, two of whom (both girls) were teachers in Fall River. Two sons additionally survived: Thomas, of Boston, and William A., no location provided. The irony? Thomas, not William, was at the time (October, 1922) employed by the state registry of motor vehicles. William was apparently an instructor in a vocational school for disabled veterans. (The source here is apparently Len Rebello's book, p. 99+.)

[duke4172]

I did not care for the book because Lizzie supposedly committed the murders while having an epileptic seizure! I find this hard to believe! Plus the fact that Victoria Lincoln knew Lizzie but it appears most of what she wrote came from reading other peoples works and newspapers not from knowing Lizzie intimately!