John Morse!
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duke4172
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John Morse!
Am I the only one that suspects John Morse? I beleive the murderer was a man because I can not see a woman killing two people with an ax with such force! not only from a strengh issue but remember the day was the Victorian age and womans dress were tight and restraining making it hard for a woman to move freely and commit axe murders
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RayS
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Re: John Morse!
Your suspicions are unfounded. Morse had an alibi. So did Emma.duke4172 @ Mon Feb 26, 2007 6:51 pm wrote:Am I the only one that suspects John Morse? I beleive the murderer was a man because I can not see a woman killing two people with an ax with such force! not only from a strengh issue but remember the day was the Victorian age and womans dress were tight and restraining making it hard for a woman to move freely and commit axe murders
The brutal hacking suggests a madman, not a woman.
That is also possible of course, but not probable.
Just read the literature "40 Whacks" by David Kent.
It was Farmer William in the Bedroom with the Hatchet.
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When I have said that Lizzie is guilty because she knew who did it- I think Morse knows who did it too. So basically he would be guity as well.
It's more interesting to read these people's wills. Lizzie left nothing to her sister Emma (breaking an agreement they had over the French Street property) and Morse left nothing to the Boden girls.
Then when probate started on Morse's will and his actual legatees started wrangling, Emma and Lizzie benefited- but Emma refused her *share*.
Does this suggest anything to anyone?
Wills can be read at:
http://lizzieandrewborden.com/Resources ... uments.htm
It's more interesting to read these people's wills. Lizzie left nothing to her sister Emma (breaking an agreement they had over the French Street property) and Morse left nothing to the Boden girls.
Then when probate started on Morse's will and his actual legatees started wrangling, Emma and Lizzie benefited- but Emma refused her *share*.
Does this suggest anything to anyone?
Wills can be read at:
http://lizzieandrewborden.com/Resources ... uments.htm
- sguthmann
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Isn't it also interesting that Anna E. Morse, the niece of John V Morse who he visited at the Emery's that fateful Aug 4th day, was taken care of fairly well in the will. She remained very close to him until his death, and I do not believe she ever married. Not that that necessarily means anything. And she and her brother were also "sick" that Aug 4th...not that that necessarily means anything either. Just interesting facts.Kat @ Mon Feb 26, 2007 6:03 pm wrote:It's more interesting to read these people's wills. Lizzie left nothing to her sister Emma (breaking an agreement they had over the French Street property) and Morse left nothing to the Boden girls. Then when probate started on Morse's will and his actual legatees started wrangling, Emma and Lizzie benefited- but Emma refused her *share*. Does this suggest anything to anyone?
Wills can be read at:
http://lizzieandrewborden.com/Resources ... uments.htm
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Lets see, I believe the Whiteheads were sick too. Emery's also, since Dr Bowen was on a sick call there too supposedly. Do we count Ellen out in the yard puking? Oh and what about Lurana Borden wasnt she sick too?Kat @ Mon Feb 26, 2007 9:39 pm wrote:She was ill, or *indisposed* that's what we hear- you are right! I hadn't thought of that- in relation to Andrew and Abbie having been ill.
Who else do we recall was ill at this time?
Some baby? At Mrs. Churchill's?
.
Has anyone done a timeline and compared Dr Bowen and John V Morses' time at the Emerys.
I find this more than just a coincidence. Since they both arrived around the same time at the Borden house, but supposedly did not run into each other at the Emerys, and it seems like they should have. Just curious.
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Wasn't it Alfred Johnson who was sick and normally delivered the eggs, and the same one who also came to the Fall River house to chop wood and left his bankbook with Andrew? (although I never undestood why that was)Harry @ Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:49 am wrote:Don't forget Mr. Eddy on the Swansea farm. He was too sick to bring the eggs over that day.
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--BobarthLets see, I believe the Whiteheads were sick too. Emery's also, since Dr Bowen was on a sick call there too supposedly. Do we count Ellen out in the yard puking? Oh and what about Lurana Borden wasnt she sick too?
Has anyone done a timeline and compared Dr Bowen and John V Morses' time at the Emerys.
I find this more than just a coincidence. Since they both arrived around the same time at the Borden house, but supposedly did not run into each other at the Emerys, and it seems like they should have. Just curious.
The Emery's weren't sick but there was supposedly talk of a baby sick there as well? That supposed visit by Bowen to that house when whoever said it happened could not have- we have shown that in a timeline, based on that telegram. (I think Mrs. Emery was supposed to have claimed that about Bowen but it's nearly impossible and remains a mystery).
The Whiteheads weren't sick either- Mrs. Whitehead was at the police picnic and the children were staying with other family members. Where do you think you read this Bobbie, do you recall?
And yes we should count Ellen, you're right!
The farm guy is a good one, Harry!
Lurana was chronically ill for a very long time, according to her obit.
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It was Mr. Eddy that was sick and normally delivered the eggs. Morse stopped at his house on Wednesday to see how he was, amongst other things, and pick up the eggs.sguthmann @ Wed Feb 28, 2007 12:54 am wrote:Wasn't it Alfred Johnson who was sick and normally delivered the eggs, and the same one who also came to the Fall River house to chop wood and left his bankbook with Andrew? (although I never undestood why that was)Harry @ Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:49 am wrote:Don't forget Mr. Eddy on the Swansea farm. He was too sick to bring the eggs over that day.
It was Mr. Johnson who chopped the wood and occasionally stayed over sleeping in the attic room next to Bridget. Bridget said she didn't know his last name.
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Kat- Well it is not in the source documents. Have been looking all morning for my source. My last read was Rebello so let me look in there tonight. Oh please please, dont let it be a quote from V. Lincoln!!!!!
So you are saying Bowen's visit to the Emerys did not happen? Or at least in that time period?
I have got to start taking notes!!!!!
So you are saying Bowen's visit to the Emerys did not happen? Or at least in that time period?
I have got to start taking notes!!!!!
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RayS
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There is a continuum between knowing who was expected there and actually witnessing the murders. The first is likely, but not the second.Kat @ Mon Feb 26, 2007 8:03 pm wrote:When I have said that Lizzie is guilty because she knew who did it- I think Morse knows who did it too. So basically he would be guity as well.
It's more interesting to read these people's wills. Lizzie left nothing to her sister Emma (breaking an agreement they had over the French Street property) and Morse left nothing to the Boden girls.
Then when probate started on Morse's will and his actual legatees started wrangling, Emma and Lizzie benefited- but Emma refused her *share*.
Does this suggest anything to anyone?
...
I'm not a lawyer, but there is an unwritten law about not turning in a relative unless you are really sure they did it, and sometimes not even then (according to TV and film dramas).
It was Farmer William in the Bedroom with the Hatchet.
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Are you looking for where the Whiteheads might have been sick, Bobbie?
Maybe it is from an inference you might have gotten when Bridget asked if she should go to the Whiteheads after Abbie- and the note story where someone was sick?
As for Bowen visiting the Emerys after Morse left, or as he was leaving- there just was no time. It's not proven 100% but in my opinion it is highly unlikely.
Maybe it is from an inference you might have gotten when Bridget asked if she should go to the Whiteheads after Abbie- and the note story where someone was sick?
As for Bowen visiting the Emerys after Morse left, or as he was leaving- there just was no time. It's not proven 100% but in my opinion it is highly unlikely.
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Kat- Cant find where I read that Bowen was visiting the Emerys around the same time as Morse. I wanted to compare time lines for those two because I did not think it possible either that they could both visit and not see each other. I have no idea where I got that from. Wish I could find the source though cause it is driving me nuts.
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Bobbie, it's in Brown and Williams' books. This is from Williams' (page 34):
"Mrs. Emery, upon whom Mr. Morse called, was disposed to talk freely to Officer Medley, who interviewed her Thursday night. She said in reply to questions that she had several callers during the day, and that one of them was John Morse.
"Was Morse the name we heard?" asked the officer of a companion.
"Yes," retorted Mrs. Emery quickly, "Morse was the man. He left here at 11:30 o'clock this morning."
"Then you noticed the time?" observed the officer.
"Oh, yes," was the reply, "I noticed the time."
"How did you fix it?" was the next question.
After some little hesitation, Mrs. Emery said that one of her family was sick, and that Dr. Bowen was her physician, "Dr. Bowen came in just as Mr. Morse left."
"Did they meet?" queried the officers.
"No, they did not," said Mrs. Emery.
At this point the niece in question entered the room and corroborated Mrs. Emery's statements, though both women finally fixed upon 11:20 as the exact time of Mr. Morse's departure."
It should be remembered that Dr. Bowen had a driver. Dr. Bowen testified at the Preliminary, page 403:
"Q. After consulting the time tables, what did you do? Did you drive to the telegraph office?
A. Yes Sir, my boy drove me down to the telegraph office.
Q. Then right back again?
A. I went from the telegraph office into Mr. Baker's drug store on Main street. I had a few moments conversation with Mr. Samuel Flint. Then I drove directly to the Borden house."
He said essentially the same thing at the Inquest and Trial. Why would he lie when his driver and Mr. Flint could be questioned? There was simply no time for Dr. Bowen to go to Weybosset St.
"Mrs. Emery, upon whom Mr. Morse called, was disposed to talk freely to Officer Medley, who interviewed her Thursday night. She said in reply to questions that she had several callers during the day, and that one of them was John Morse.
"Was Morse the name we heard?" asked the officer of a companion.
"Yes," retorted Mrs. Emery quickly, "Morse was the man. He left here at 11:30 o'clock this morning."
"Then you noticed the time?" observed the officer.
"Oh, yes," was the reply, "I noticed the time."
"How did you fix it?" was the next question.
After some little hesitation, Mrs. Emery said that one of her family was sick, and that Dr. Bowen was her physician, "Dr. Bowen came in just as Mr. Morse left."
"Did they meet?" queried the officers.
"No, they did not," said Mrs. Emery.
At this point the niece in question entered the room and corroborated Mrs. Emery's statements, though both women finally fixed upon 11:20 as the exact time of Mr. Morse's departure."
It should be remembered that Dr. Bowen had a driver. Dr. Bowen testified at the Preliminary, page 403:
"Q. After consulting the time tables, what did you do? Did you drive to the telegraph office?
A. Yes Sir, my boy drove me down to the telegraph office.
Q. Then right back again?
A. I went from the telegraph office into Mr. Baker's drug store on Main street. I had a few moments conversation with Mr. Samuel Flint. Then I drove directly to the Borden house."
He said essentially the same thing at the Inquest and Trial. Why would he lie when his driver and Mr. Flint could be questioned? There was simply no time for Dr. Bowen to go to Weybosset St.
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Harry- YES That is it!!!!! Thank YOU so much!! I have not read the Williams book therefore I have quoted from A. Brown. Sorry, my bad. Thanks for helping me unlearn what I have learned wrong. I will put myself in Time-Out in some corner.
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Thanks for clearing that up. There is enough misinformation out there without me contributing anymore to it. How do you guys keep it all sorted? I am at the point that I want to type it all up for easy searching. Frustrating to learn it wrong.
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Re: John Morse!
[quote="duke4172 @ Mon Feb 26, 2007 5:51 pm"]Am I the only one that suspects John Morse? I beleive the murderer was a man because I can not see a woman killing two people with an ax with such force! not only from a strengh issue but remember the day was the Victorian age and womans dress were tight and restraining making it hard for a woman to move freely and commit axe murders[/quote
Women are alot stronger than you might think. I dont see too many men wanting to go thru labor. My point being that just because Lizzie is a woman doesn't mean that she couldn't swung the blows with an axe. Besides, he had an alibi.
Now, that doesn't mean that he might not been involved someway or another. Just because he and emma wasn't there doesnt mean they weren't somehow involved.
Women are alot stronger than you might think. I dont see too many men wanting to go thru labor. My point being that just because Lizzie is a woman doesn't mean that she couldn't swung the blows with an axe. Besides, he had an alibi.
Now, that doesn't mean that he might not been involved someway or another. Just because he and emma wasn't there doesnt mean they weren't somehow involved.
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Yes I agree with that, snokkums.
Why did Morse bring his *last letter* from Andrew with him to the inquest? For some sort of proof of why he was visiting?
Of all the characters in this tragedy, he is the most suspicious. For Emma to refuse his legacy, that speaks a lot. She could have taken it and donated it to charity even, but she didn't. It sat in escrow until she died before her estate decided to accept the money. Granted, it wasn't a lot, but still...
Why did Morse bring his *last letter* from Andrew with him to the inquest? For some sort of proof of why he was visiting?
Of all the characters in this tragedy, he is the most suspicious. For Emma to refuse his legacy, that speaks a lot. She could have taken it and donated it to charity even, but she didn't. It sat in escrow until she died before her estate decided to accept the money. Granted, it wasn't a lot, but still...
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I too have been curious about that last letter from Borden to Morse. To anyone's knowledge, were the contents of the letter ever revealed? It's very possible that the letter could have shed more light on family dynamics at that time, business dealings and/or any major transactions that were about to occur. As I recall, Morse was asked about the letter during the inquest and was reluctant to hand it over, reportedly because it was the last letter he ever received from Andrew. I wonder if anyone ever did get a peek at it?Kat @ Wed Mar 07, 2007 4:57 pm wrote: Why did Morse bring his *last letter* from Andrew with him to the inquest? For some sort of proof of why he was visiting?
Of all the characters in this tragedy, he is the most suspicious. For Emma to refuse his legacy, that speaks a lot. She could have taken it and donated it to charity even, but she didn't. It sat in escrow until she died before her estate decided to accept the money. Granted, it wasn't a lot, but still...
Re: Emma, I recall that prior to the murders she and Morse had been on good terms, corresponded back and forth more than Morse and any other member of the AJB family (per Morse's inquest testimony). Didn't Morse also take Emma and Mr Davis's daughter on a ride and a visit to a steamboat in June 1892? I believe he talked about it in his inquest testimony. Seems they were getting along quite well at that time. According to Emma's inquest testimony, it was Morse who told her about a AJB will. Emma also stated in that same testimony, "He is a very dear uncle of ours, of mine."
I wonder what could have happened to cause such a falling out?
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diana
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"Q. You do not think you had written announcing your visit at this time?
A. I dont think I did. Let me see, let me tell it as I can think of it. Mr. Borden, when I was over here sometime in July, that I speak of, wanted to know if I knew of a man he could get on his farm, to take charge of it, I told him I did not know, I would see. When I got back I wrote him I knew of a man I thought would suit him, I would send him over. He wrote back to me he had rather I would wait until I saw him. I have his letter in my pocket, if you want to see it.
Q. What was the date of that letter? You may refresh your memory. If you have no objections, I will see it.
(Witness produces the letter dated July 25, 1892.)
Q. Have you any objection to me keeping this?A. No Sir, I would not like it lost, because it was the last one I ever had from him.
Q. That, then, was the last correspondence before you came over?
A. That is the last.
Q. You did not write him you were coming?
A. No Sir.
Q. You came partially in pursuance of that request?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was that about ten days before you came?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. So they were not expecting you that particular day, but were looking for you at any time?
A. Yes Sir." (Morse: Inquest, 98+)
A. I dont think I did. Let me see, let me tell it as I can think of it. Mr. Borden, when I was over here sometime in July, that I speak of, wanted to know if I knew of a man he could get on his farm, to take charge of it, I told him I did not know, I would see. When I got back I wrote him I knew of a man I thought would suit him, I would send him over. He wrote back to me he had rather I would wait until I saw him. I have his letter in my pocket, if you want to see it.
Q. What was the date of that letter? You may refresh your memory. If you have no objections, I will see it.
(Witness produces the letter dated July 25, 1892.)
Q. Have you any objection to me keeping this?A. No Sir, I would not like it lost, because it was the last one I ever had from him.
Q. That, then, was the last correspondence before you came over?
A. That is the last.
Q. You did not write him you were coming?
A. No Sir.
Q. You came partially in pursuance of that request?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was that about ten days before you came?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. So they were not expecting you that particular day, but were looking for you at any time?
A. Yes Sir." (Morse: Inquest, 98+)
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RayS
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Obviously the last letter from his esteemed brother-in-law would be a keepsake, no matter what. If it also had a sentence saying Andy wanted John for a confidential mission that would be a tip-off (but we can only guess what that would be: something that could not be put on paper).
As for the refusal to inherit, that can be simply explained by the usual case. Ever know of a family where squabbles blew up after the funeral of a relative? Somebody thought they should have got more, etc. Old slights coming to the front.
What is your experiences?
As for the refusal to inherit, that can be simply explained by the usual case. Ever know of a family where squabbles blew up after the funeral of a relative? Somebody thought they should have got more, etc. Old slights coming to the front.
What is your experiences?
It was Farmer William in the Bedroom with the Hatchet.
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To anser your question. It is possible that John could of Killed them. After all, it was either John, Lizzie, Bridget, Emma or a stranger who did it.John was tall and in the book I am reading "Lizzie did not do it" the author says by the injurys on Abbys head, the person would of had to be tall to do those injurys and lizzie was not that much taller then abby.Plus, John did have a weird reaction when he came to the Bordon house when the police where there. No questions to the public, what is going on? Why are all these people outside the house.
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If Abby was kneeling at the time of the attack, then it wouldn't have mattered how tall the killer was.affie4u @ Thu Mar 08, 2007 6:41 pm wrote:To anser your question. It is possible that John could of Killed them. After all, it was either John, Lizzie, Bridget, Emma or a stranger who did it.John was tall and in the book I am reading "Lizzie did not do it" the author says by the injurys on Abbys head, the person would of had to be tall to do those injurys and lizzie was not that much taller then abby.
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Thanks for the transcription, Diana!
My interpretation has not been that Morse was "reluctant" to hand it over. As I said, it seemed like he brought it for a reason, and he brings it up and offers it.
My thoughts are more along the lines of finding out more- like did Morse have a chance to go home to S. Dartmouth and get his things before his day at the Inquest? Did Wm. Davis bring it over Friday? Did Morse bring it in his pocket and nothing else, on Wednesday Aug. 3rd?
My interpretation has not been that Morse was "reluctant" to hand it over. As I said, it seemed like he brought it for a reason, and he brings it up and offers it.
My thoughts are more along the lines of finding out more- like did Morse have a chance to go home to S. Dartmouth and get his things before his day at the Inquest? Did Wm. Davis bring it over Friday? Did Morse bring it in his pocket and nothing else, on Wednesday Aug. 3rd?
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This is what sguthmann was referring to- among Morse's explanations of his relationship with Emma (but I feel as if Morse would have taken Lizzie to ride too if she had been at home that day- but that is my assumption):
Q. The last time you were there before this murder was when?
A. I should think somewhere about the 10th of July.
Q. How long did you stay then?
A. I did not stay but a short time. I was here over night, but I went down to an Aunt’s on the Stafford Road at that time.
Q. What is her name?
A. Catherine Boudray.
Q. Before that, can you recall the last time you were there?
A. It was somewhere the last of June. I know Phebe Curry was sick at that time, she died a little afterwards, I think about the last of June.
Q. Did you stop all night then?
A. No Sir, came over in the morning and went back at night. I can tell all about that time if you want me to. There was a lady came over, Mr. Davis’ daughter, with me. We drove over in the afternoon. I hired a horse, and Mr. Borden’s daughter went to ride, we went down to the steam boat. I took her home after dark.
Q. Did you see much of Miss Lizzie when you came to the house?
97
A. Sometimes; sometimes I did not see either of the girls, stayed a few minutes and talked with Mr. Borden, and went out.
Q. Take the last time but one in July, when you went down to Boudray’s, did you see Miss Lizzie then?
A. I dont think I saw either of them at that time.
Q. Take the time before that, when Miss Davis came over with you, did you see the girls then?
A. I saw Emma; I went to ride, I told you.
Q. Did you see Lizzie?
A. I dont think I did.
Q. The last time you were there before this murder was when?
A. I should think somewhere about the 10th of July.
Q. How long did you stay then?
A. I did not stay but a short time. I was here over night, but I went down to an Aunt’s on the Stafford Road at that time.
Q. What is her name?
A. Catherine Boudray.
Q. Before that, can you recall the last time you were there?
A. It was somewhere the last of June. I know Phebe Curry was sick at that time, she died a little afterwards, I think about the last of June.
Q. Did you stop all night then?
A. No Sir, came over in the morning and went back at night. I can tell all about that time if you want me to. There was a lady came over, Mr. Davis’ daughter, with me. We drove over in the afternoon. I hired a horse, and Mr. Borden’s daughter went to ride, we went down to the steam boat. I took her home after dark.
Q. Did you see much of Miss Lizzie when you came to the house?
97
A. Sometimes; sometimes I did not see either of the girls, stayed a few minutes and talked with Mr. Borden, and went out.
Q. Take the last time but one in July, when you went down to Boudray’s, did you see Miss Lizzie then?
A. I dont think I saw either of them at that time.
Q. Take the time before that, when Miss Davis came over with you, did you see the girls then?
A. I saw Emma; I went to ride, I told you.
Q. Did you see Lizzie?
A. I dont think I did.
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correct kat, thank you for posting the testimony.
i think that your idea of Morse purposefully having the letter on hand - as if he may have thought he'd need it to refer to or to prove something - is very interesting and one of those possibilities I had not considered...and which has interesting implications as well, taken in that light. i'll have to do some thinking on that one.
i think that your idea of Morse purposefully having the letter on hand - as if he may have thought he'd need it to refer to or to prove something - is very interesting and one of those possibilities I had not considered...and which has interesting implications as well, taken in that light. i'll have to do some thinking on that one.
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You should all assume that Uncle John had consulted with a lawyer, or at least used his experience to realize that this letter summoning him might be important. My surmise is that John did not just drop in like a passer-by, but was there for a reason (the letter from Andy).sguthmann @ Fri Mar 09, 2007 1:13 am wrote:correct kat, thank you for posting the testimony.
i think that your idea of Morse purposefully having the letter on hand - as if he may have thought he'd need it to refer to or to prove something - is very interesting and one of those possibilities I had not considered...and which has interesting implications as well, taken in that light. i'll have to do some thinking on that one.
Andy, or any rich man, would be likely to use a trusted confidential agent to inspect and investigate property. If he wore old clothes and seemed like some old bum so much the better to seem harmless. People will often converse with someone who seems like a harmless stranger than a well-dressed official looking gent. IMO
It was Farmer William in the Bedroom with the Hatchet.
- Kat
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Morse made more excuses for coming than Lizzie made as to where she was when her father came home. She was more consistent than Morse even, because she really only modified her claim once.
Morse was supposed to see about some cattle, or he was supposed to get a man for the farm, but all he got were some eggs.
Inquest
I was over here sometime in July, that I speak of, wanted to know if I knew of a man he could get on his farm, to take charge of it, I told him I did not know, I would see. When I got back I wrote him I knew of a man I thought would suit him, I would send him over. He wrote back to me he had rather I would wait until I saw him. I have his letter in my pocket, if you want to see it.
Q. What was the date of that letter? You may refresh your memory. If you have no objections, I will see it.
(Witness produces the letter dated July 25, 1892.)
Q. Have you any objection to me keeping this?
A. No Sir, I would not like it lost, because it was the last one I ever had from him.
Q. That, then, was the last correspondence before you came over?
A. That is the last.
Q. You did not write him you were coming?
A. No Sir.
Q. You came partially in pursuance of that request?
A. Yes Sir.
p.99
Q. Was that about ten days before you came?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. So they were not expecting you that particular day, but were looking for you at any time?
A. Yes Sir.
...
101
A. We went out in the sitting room from the dining room, and Mr. and Mrs. Borden and I talked a little while; then she went to dusting around, doing her little chores. Then Mr. Borden and I talked about some cattle I had; and then I went away.
_____
Prelim
237
Q. Did you have some business of Mr. Borden’s over there?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. I do not care to go into the particulars of it. You had some business relating to Mr. Borden at the farm?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Something about hiring a man, was it not?
A. I went more particularly over there that day to see about some cattle I bought of him. I thought I would make arrangements to take them.
.....
Q. To whom did you write that letter you put in the post office; you are not obliged to tell that.
A. I think it was to William Vinnecum.
Q. Of Swansea?
Page 244
A. Yes; it was to him, I know now; it was about some cattle.
Q. You mailed it here in the post office?
A. Yes Sir.
-----
--By the trial, I don't think he was asked why he came on a visit.
W.S.
36
Frederick Eddy made the following statement. “John V. Morse came over to this house Wednesday evening Aug. 3, between seven and eight o’clock. He drove a horse and top buggy; said it was a stable team. He came in the house and brought a rattan basket, took out three pears and laid on the table, said he brought them over from the Borden house. He said Mr. Borden sent him over to see how I was, and get the eggs. Said Mr. Borden was coming with him, but he, his wife and Lizzie were taken sick last night, and he couldn’t come. He said he stopped to supper at Mr. Vinnecum’s, who lives a short distance from here. I said to him, after he got his eggs, “how about the oxen Mr. Davis of South Dartmouth was to have to use?” “I am going back and see Mr. Borden, and think we will make arrangements to get them back over Saturday morning”, was the reply. Mr. Morse stayed here perhaps ten or fifteen minutes. Since hearing of the murder, it has seemed to me a singular coincidence that he should have come over that night for the eggs, for, had he not, I should have taken the train and gone to Mr. Borden’s Thursday morning, arriving at the house about quarter to eleven or eleven.
Morse was supposed to see about some cattle, or he was supposed to get a man for the farm, but all he got were some eggs.
Inquest
I was over here sometime in July, that I speak of, wanted to know if I knew of a man he could get on his farm, to take charge of it, I told him I did not know, I would see. When I got back I wrote him I knew of a man I thought would suit him, I would send him over. He wrote back to me he had rather I would wait until I saw him. I have his letter in my pocket, if you want to see it.
Q. What was the date of that letter? You may refresh your memory. If you have no objections, I will see it.
(Witness produces the letter dated July 25, 1892.)
Q. Have you any objection to me keeping this?
A. No Sir, I would not like it lost, because it was the last one I ever had from him.
Q. That, then, was the last correspondence before you came over?
A. That is the last.
Q. You did not write him you were coming?
A. No Sir.
Q. You came partially in pursuance of that request?
A. Yes Sir.
p.99
Q. Was that about ten days before you came?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. So they were not expecting you that particular day, but were looking for you at any time?
A. Yes Sir.
...
101
A. We went out in the sitting room from the dining room, and Mr. and Mrs. Borden and I talked a little while; then she went to dusting around, doing her little chores. Then Mr. Borden and I talked about some cattle I had; and then I went away.
_____
Prelim
237
Q. Did you have some business of Mr. Borden’s over there?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. I do not care to go into the particulars of it. You had some business relating to Mr. Borden at the farm?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Something about hiring a man, was it not?
A. I went more particularly over there that day to see about some cattle I bought of him. I thought I would make arrangements to take them.
.....
Q. To whom did you write that letter you put in the post office; you are not obliged to tell that.
A. I think it was to William Vinnecum.
Q. Of Swansea?
Page 244
A. Yes; it was to him, I know now; it was about some cattle.
Q. You mailed it here in the post office?
A. Yes Sir.
-----
--By the trial, I don't think he was asked why he came on a visit.
W.S.
36
Frederick Eddy made the following statement. “John V. Morse came over to this house Wednesday evening Aug. 3, between seven and eight o’clock. He drove a horse and top buggy; said it was a stable team. He came in the house and brought a rattan basket, took out three pears and laid on the table, said he brought them over from the Borden house. He said Mr. Borden sent him over to see how I was, and get the eggs. Said Mr. Borden was coming with him, but he, his wife and Lizzie were taken sick last night, and he couldn’t come. He said he stopped to supper at Mr. Vinnecum’s, who lives a short distance from here. I said to him, after he got his eggs, “how about the oxen Mr. Davis of South Dartmouth was to have to use?” “I am going back and see Mr. Borden, and think we will make arrangements to get them back over Saturday morning”, was the reply. Mr. Morse stayed here perhaps ten or fifteen minutes. Since hearing of the murder, it has seemed to me a singular coincidence that he should have come over that night for the eggs, for, had he not, I should have taken the train and gone to Mr. Borden’s Thursday morning, arriving at the house about quarter to eleven or eleven.
- Kat
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The way those crowds followed Morse around when he would leave the murder house, shows that the normal populace probably looked upon Morse with more suspicion than they did of anyone else of the household.
BTW: In my long-ago reading of 100's of Regency Romance novels (trying to distract myself), in England they used the word *cattle* often to mean horses. I've wondered, since Morse was a horse dealer, if he meant that. There are those Westport stories about him and the *gypsie* horse traders.
BTW: In my long-ago reading of 100's of Regency Romance novels (trying to distract myself), in England they used the word *cattle* often to mean horses. I've wondered, since Morse was a horse dealer, if he meant that. There are those Westport stories about him and the *gypsie* horse traders.
- Kat
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- Angel
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Don't you think that it is very telling that Morse and the "girls" did not stay in contact after the murders? He seemed to have been involved with the family before that. And he stayed in contact with his other niece until he died. It means to me that he was either afraid of one or both of them or did not want to associate with them because he thought they were guilty. Or the girls were afraid of him or hated him because they thought he was the murderer. It seems to me that if it was someone else entirely who committed the deeds then they would have continued to stay in touch as before. In fact, maybe more so to help support each other through the trauma.
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RayS
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- shakiboo
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Could it be, that Johm and Andrew had become very close, and actually cared for each other? No, I am not in any way referring to either of them being gay. He (John) wasn't coming to visit the "girls" he was always coming to see Andrew and the girls were just there. or not there as the case may be. They could have developed a life long friendship. It seems Andrew who everyone knew as pretty closed mouth in his business dealings, trusted Johm and talked with (probably) a whole lot more then what was let known.
- shakiboo
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Sorry, didn't think of this till after posting the other. what if Andrew was going to have Johm manage his business affairs if anything should happen to him and that is what he and John had been talking about the night before? That way if put into a will, all of his girls would be taken care of as Andrew had taken care of them. THAT would also have set some body into a real twirl, if they had been overheard talking about it the night before.
- Angel
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That's certainly a possibility. If Andrew looked upon his daughters as only girls who had to be taken care of the rest of their lives, especially if one was rebellious and slightly flakey, he very well may have thought of putting Morse in charge to take over. If Lizzie had felt oppressed and could hardly wait until she was in control of her own finances and life, maybe finding out that she was being passed from one oppressor to another was enough to make her lose control. However, if that was the case, I would think she would not have let Morse live.shakiboo @ Mon Apr 16, 2007 12:26 pm wrote:Sorry, didn't think of this till after posting the other. what if Andrew was going to have Johm manage his business affairs if anything should happen to him and that is what he and John had been talking about the night before? That way if put into a will, all of his girls would be taken care of as Andrew had taken care of them. THAT would also have set some body into a real twirl, if they had been overheard talking about it the night before.
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RayS
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While I don't remember reading anything about this, I surmise that Morse was used as an undercover investigator for Andy. Morse was unknown, he dressed like he was from another state, etc. and could get information that the too well-known Andy could not get.shakiboo @ Mon Apr 16, 2007 12:21 pm wrote:Could it be, that Johm and Andrew had become very close, and actually cared for each other? No, I am not in any way referring to either of them being gay. He (John) wasn't coming to visit the "girls" he was always coming to see Andrew and the girls were just there. or not there as the case may be. They could have developed a life long friendship. It seems Andrew who everyone knew as pretty closed mouth in his business dealings, trusted Johm and talked with (probably) a whole lot more then what was let known.
I know that it is SOP for a wealthy corporation to use an agent to buy up properties without attracting attention. ""Chinatown" was a fictional example, but it is based on fact.
It was Farmer William in the Bedroom with the Hatchet.
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RayS
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Again you are supposing that Lizzie did it. Does the jury verdict mean anything?Angel @ Mon Apr 16, 2007 1:26 pm wrote:...
That's certainly a possibility. If Andrew looked upon his daughters as only girls who had to be taken care of the rest of their lives, especially if one was rebellious and slightly flakey, he very well may have thought of putting Morse in charge to take over. If Lizzie had felt oppressed and could hardly wait until she was in control of her own finances and life, maybe finding out that she was being passed from one oppressor to another was enough to make her lose control. However, if that was the case, I would think she would not have let Morse live.
Remember when John Morse tried to collect reimbursement claiming he was from Iowa? Would you let him handle the Borden Fortune?
- theebmonique
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Juries have been wrong. Many a wrongly convicted person will be forever thankful for DNA testing/technology.
There is missing information in this case, as we all know. Had the jury had all, or at least MORE information ie; an eyewitness, a weapon, or a suspect 'caught in the act', etc., the verdict may just have been quite different.
Tracy...
There is missing information in this case, as we all know. Had the jury had all, or at least MORE information ie; an eyewitness, a weapon, or a suspect 'caught in the act', etc., the verdict may just have been quite different.
Tracy...
I'm defying gravity and you can't pull me down.

