Poll- Question on Sources

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 7:34 am

I'd like to get an idea of what posting members use to bolster their memories when in debate here; what sources they have available and handy to them at their computer- or how far they would have to go to check something? Who has source material on their computer? Who knows how or doesn't know how to search a document? What books are handy? How many have Rebello's book?

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 8:45 am

I voted that I have Rebello, but I could also have picked several of the other options as well, however, the poll is only allowing one vote, one time.

Tracy...

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 8:51 am

Oh Crap! I had twice as many questions, too- and it made me narrow them down.
I guess this won't work.
Maybe we can try answering each in a post?
If people don't go for that, I will take the Poll away.

Thank you very much, Tracy.
I never take my own polls.

Smudgeman · Post by **Smudgeman** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 10:34 am

I have Rebello, and I also have printed copies of the witness statements, Inquest, and trial transcripts handy.

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 10:40 am

I'm usually at work, so I don't have access to much here.

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 11:17 am

ok...let me try a "copy/paste" from your list Kat...here are sources that I use from time to time:

I have the Witness Statements in a format I can access on my computer - YES

I have the Inquest in a format I can access on my computer - YES

I have the Prelim in a format I can access on my computer - YES

I have the Trial in a format I can access on my computer - YES

I post from work and have no sources available there - SOMETIMES

I look things up often - YES, BUT I NEED TO DO MORE

I have read one or more authors AND one or more source document - YES

My favorite source- please elaborate - IN ADDITION TO ALLLLLLL OF THE FREE AND FOR PURCHASE SOURCES/INFORMATION AVAILABLE FROM THIS SITE, ONE OF MY FAVORITE AND I BELIEVE MOST RELIABLE SOURCES, WOULD BE SOME OF THE EXPERTS ON THIS FORUM.

Tracy...

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 12:03 pm

Oh that's cool, Tracy!

Thanks to those who have participated so far!

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 2:11 pm

Yes to these:

I have Rebello's reference work nearby when I post
I have the Witness Statements in a format I can access on my computer
I have the Inquest in a format I can access on my computer
I have the Prelim in a format I can access on my computer
I have the Trial in a format I can access on my computer
I look things up often
I have read one or more authors AND one or more source document

No to these:

I post from work and have no sources available there
I mostly post from memory
I have read one or more authors on the crime, but no source documents

My favorite source is actually the newspapers but I take into account all that I have read elsewhere when judging their validity. I have found them more often right than wrong.

bobarth · Post by **bobarth** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 2:46 pm

I have Rebello's reference work nearby when I post -- It is at home and I do most of my posting at work.
I have the Witness Statements in a format I can access on my computer--- Yes both home and work
I have the Inquest in a format I can access on my computer--- Yes
I have the Prelim in a format I can access on my computer--- No
I have the Trial in a format I can access on my computer--- Yes
I post from work and have no sources available there--- Yes
I mostly post from memory--- A lot of times
I look things up often-- Yes, and usually after I posted something wrong.
I have read one or more authors on the crime, but no source documents---Have read several authors and several source documents.
I have read one or more authors AND one or more source document----Many authors and several of the source documents.
My favorite source- please elaborate ---- Rebello is my favorite book because it is so well researched. I also love the forum for getting my information and for making sure if I post something wrong that I get corrected. Many many helpful forum members who have went above and beyond to get me information. I also cruise the old archives and learn much.

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 5:41 pm

I have Rebello's reference work nearby when I post--No
I have the Witness Statements in a format I can access on my computer--Yes
I have the Inquest in a format I can access on my computer--Yes
I have the Prelim in a format I can access on my computer--Yes
I have the Trial in a format I can access on my computer--Yes
I post from work and have no sources available there--Very seldom, just as it happens.

I mostly post from memory--Occasionally
I look things up often--Yes
I have read one or more authors on the crime, but no source documents
I have read one or more authors AND one or more source document--Yes
My favorite source- please elaborate--The Preliminaries are my favorite source for info because this info was taken closer to the actual crimes than the Trial. And, it is much more elaborate than the Inquest and we finally get to hear Bridget's take on things. The Inquest would be next in line for the immediacy of it and getting Lizzie's version of things.

diana · Post by **diana** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 6:54 pm

I have the same answers as Harry -- with the exception of a favorite source. I rely heavily on the transcripts of the witness statements, inquest, preliminary hearing and trial. I love the newspaper reports -- but I always worry a little when I'm reading them that I'm going to get a rumor stuck in my head and forget that it originated in the press.

I often miss the opportunity to post because I spend too much time looking things up and when I go back to the thread, the topic has morphed into something else.

doug65oh · Post by **doug65oh** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 7:12 pm

I have Rebello's reference work nearby when I post- Usually, yes. It's on the shelf behind my computer desk.

I have the Witness Statements in a format I can access on my computer--Yes

I have the Inquest in a format I can access on my computer--Yes

I have the Preliminary Hearing in a format I can access on my computer--Yes

I have the Trial in a format I can access on my computer--Yes

I mostly post from memory-- Actually I do for the most part - and nobody's more surprised than me when I remember things correctly! I have no fear though of looking things up if the need arises. (Now if I could only remember where I put my shoes!)

I look things up often--Ayup, whenever the need arises.

I have read one or more authors AND one or more source document--Yes indeed - four authors if I'm remembering correctly; all of the core primary source docs (the legal stuff) plus the Evening Standard pdf collection.

My favorite source? (I'll vote for chocolate pudding there.)

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Mar 14, 2007 7:41 pm

Thank you so much, so far, you guys! I appreciate the contributions.

I must say I am chuckling here, but not At anyone, but rather with everyone!

I didn't expect such humor.

sguthmann · Post by **sguthmann** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 12:33 am

In response...

I have Rebello's reference work nearby when I post - Sometimes
I have the Witness Statements in a format I can access on my computer - Yes
I have the Inquest in a format I can access on my computer - Yes
I have the Prelim in a format I can access on my computer - No
I have the Trial in a format I can access on my computer -Yes
I post from work and have no sources available there - No
I mostly post from memory - Yes
I look things up often - Not as often as I probably should. I rely on memory for the most part.
I have read one or more authors on the crime, but no source documents - No
I have read one or more authors AND one or more source document - Yes
My favorite source- please elaborate - Several favorites...source docs, Rebello, newspapers...it's really quite hard to pick just one. I guess outside the documents from the time, I'd say Rebello is most valuable as it seems the most comprehensive and has such in depth research (with sources clearly cited). I also think that "Lizzie Borden, a Case Book of Family and Crime In the 1890s" is an excellent compilation of the essential information.

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 12:23 pm

First you seem to be trusting the commercially published books. Don't they all have some axe to grind in making their point?

I've never seen Rebello, so tell he how he escapes the 'errare humanum est' trap? WHO has ever researched and checked over it all? This is not meant as a personal comment, obviously he spent many years on this labor of love.

The Trial Transcript records what people said, the Prosecution and the Defense. The Jury decides which witnesses and facts are true, and make their decision. "Not guilty" of murdering Andy is still true today, given all the books published. Nobody here has sat through the trial and heard the witnesses. After the fact = a person's own biases (for, against, or even an open mind as in my case).

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 1:15 pm

I have Rebello's reference work nearby when I post: Yes
I have the Witness Statements in a format I can access on my computer: Yes
I have the Inquest in a format I can access on my computer: Yes
I have the Prelim in a format I can access on my computer: No, but intend to get it
I have the Trial in a format I can access on my computer: Yes
I post from work and have no sources available there: No
I mostly post from memory: Sometimes
I look things up often: Yes
I have read one or more authors on the crime, but no source documents: No
I have read one or more authors AND one or more source document: Yes
My favorite source- please elaborate: The Witness Statements, Inquest Testimony, Trial Transcript and Rebello. I really like Rebello due to the indicated sources.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Mar 15, 2007 3:32 pm

Ray, you did not answer the poll. You commented.
I think people might be interested in your honest answers.

Thanks so far everybody! This is a most successful flubbed poll!

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 1:27 pm

Kat @ Thu Mar 15, 2007 3:32 pm wrote:Ray, you did not answer the poll. You commented.
I think people might be interested in your honest answers.

Thanks so far everybody! This is a most successful flubbed poll!

No, I did answer the poll at the top of the page.
I trust my near perfect memory. (Laugh if you will.)

This site is not some sort of test to regurgitate what you read in the various and contending books.

So how do you handle conflicting testimony? Given that only one, or none, can be right when the witnesses disagree.

If one person says they saw a "gray coat" at night, and the person wearing that coat says it was "khaki" how do you resolve this?
Hint: what color does a khaki coat look like under moonlight?

Ever notice this on car colors?

NB the areas of disagreement do not have solid documentation, and never will. Was there an intruder in the house? People believe that, even if they can't prove it, because it makes sense that way.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 5:45 pm

I have the Witness Statements, the Inquest and Trial Testimony on my computer. I post mostly from memory and often look things up. I have avoided reading the various authors, and I do not have Rebello's book. So far, my favorite source is the Witness Statements because they were taken before anyone knew they were in jeopardy and before anyone knew what anyone else had said, for the most part.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 6:55 pm

Now that's an answer! Thanks!
-- see Ray- that's how this one works. I flubbed it and it takes a post to elaborate.

Nadzieja · Post by **Nadzieja** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 8:40 am

ok, help help help the newbie here. I love this forum, most of the time I look up what someone references and they post it. I'm still in the process of collecting as many books as possible and love The Hatchet. Now for the question that proves I'm new. What is Rebello's reference work? PLEASE send the name of the book. Also when you say witness statements of inqest testimony. Are these published as books or are they links that you can save & recall so you can read when you have the opportunity? Thank you all for your time, knowledge & patience.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 9:23 am

The Witness Statements and Inquest testimonies can be downloaded for free in PDF format at the Lizzie Borden Virtual Library site:

http://lizzieandrewborden.com/Resources ... uments.htm

Using the free Adobe Reader software you can then read them on the screen or if you like paper copies, print them out. There is also a HUGE volume of other free material at the library. Take advantage of it.

Leonard Rebello's book is an invaluable, if not indispensable, book on the Borden case. Some 6 years in the making and over 600 pages it is truly an encyclopedia containing a mountain of information with sources. Self published in 1999 by Al-Zach Press the official title is: Lizzie Borden: Past and Present. However, finding a copy will be difficult. If you are lucky enough to obtain one don't look for his solution to the crime. Mercifully he rarely expresses an opinion on events and just presents you with the facts.

Nadzieja · Post by **Nadzieja** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 12:18 pm

Harry, I cannont thank you enough for the information. I now have reading material for quite awhile, and it's so interesting. I will be on the lookout for that book. On your copy of the book do you have an ISBN #? That helps in most searches even the libraries.
Becasue there is so much, I can see how the forum and references to different books & texts is so important. Again, thanks for sharing.

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 12:49 pm

In addition to Harry's great advice, there are also some things available for purchase such as an all-in-one Primary Source Documents on CD, and in the printed format :

CD
http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Borde ... nBooks.htm

Printed (scroll down past THE HATCHET issues):
http://www.lulu.com/PearTreePress

Tracy...

Nadzieja · Post by **Nadzieja** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 2:21 pm

I want to say Thank you to you also Tracy. I'll probably be getting the trial itself in print. A few days ago I ordered a back copy of one of The Hatchet magazines. It has an interview, from what I understand its actually the only interview Emma ever agreed to. I'm keeping a list of all these neat thing. I think I know where someone will be doing Christmas shopping this coming year.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 2:37 pm

The ISBN number of the Rebello book is 0-9670739-0-1.

Library of Congress # 99-9428

Nadzieja · Post by **Nadzieja** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 4:02 pm

Much appreciated Harry.

Fargo · Post by **Fargo** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 11:45 am

I mostly post from memory. I look things up when I can. The most frustrating part is when I want to post something I have read but I can't find the source.

Most my Lizzie books are in my bookcase in the other room. There is too much stuff in the computer room to bring a bookcase in here. So I go into the next room to get what I want. It would be a lot handier having the bookcase right by the computer though.

I have read quite a few books on the case but I have never completely read through any of the primary, reference, or source books like Rebello's or the Knowlton papers. I read through parts of them when I am looking for something.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 12:11 pm

Thank you for your input Fargo!

Have you ever seen that H&G network show, Mission Organization?
I feel like I need an intervention!

Lizzie Borden Society Forum

Poll- Question on Sources

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Poll- Question on Sources