Abby's activities before death; back door

[ddnoe]

I know Abby was killed in the guest room. What exactly is she believed to have been doing prior to the blow? Did she have a duster or something in her hand?
Was the back door unlocked?
Was there any other way inside the house?
Thanks.

[IanR]

The question of whether the back door was locked seems to me to only become so significant at the trial because of the inadmissibility of Lizzie’s inquest testimony. When the trial evidence is looked at in isolation it points to Lizzie being upstairs most of the time while her father is out. Bridget having testified that she hears Lizzie upstairs when Mr Borden returns (p283) and that she only sees Lizzie once, at the back door (p279-281), the whole of the time she is washing the windows. She testifies that Lizzie doesn’t start ironing until Mr Borden returns (p284). Therefore, obviously, the issue of whether or not the back screen is secured is important in determining whether an intruder could have got in to murder Abby while Lizzie was upstairs (presumably in her room with the door closed) or during her brief visit downstairs (where ever that was to) and Bridget was pottering about in and out doing the windows.

While Lizzie is allegedly in the barn and Bridget in her room, it’s pretty easy to go along with the idea that screen was left open allowing an intruder to kill Mr Borden. Leaving aside the issue of why the intruder would come back, of course.

However, when we look at Lizzie’s inquest testimony, she states that she was down stairs all of the while her father was out having started her ironing before he left (p16) and confirming that she had seen Abby dusting while she was down there (p19). The problem for Lizzie is, if she was down stairs sitting in the kitchen reading while waiting for her flats to heat up (p19) :– “I don’t recollect doing anything else”, it would have made it very difficult for an unknown assailant to sneak past her and butcher Abby. So, once again, she is caught out by her own lie.

Had she chosen to testify at the trial, she would have been faced with the dilema of either having had to concede that she wasn’t in fact down stairs all the time after all – having previously, after a false start, been pretty specific about what she was doing. Or stick to her story, in contradiction of Bridget, and explain why she hadn’t seen anyone enter the house.

[Yooper]

I haven't been able to determine whether the screen door was locked or unlocked while Bridget was washing windows outside, but it appears to have been unlocked when Bridget came inside to wash windows. She did not see Lizzie in the kitchen at that point. The front door had been locked using all three locks, Bridget had to let Andrew in because he couldn't get in by using his key. Lizzie had not let him in the side door while she was supposedly in the kitchen. Andrew apparently locked the front door again, officer Allen reported all three locks in use when he arrived. The cellar door was found locked tight, although John Morse thought it might have been open in the only dissenting statement.

I agree, it was a good thing Lizzie didn't testify at the trial! Just the exclusion of her inquest testimony probably won the case for the defense. When Lizzie's Inquest testimony was included in other proceedings, we find that a judge pronounced her "probably guilty" and allows the case to proceed, and a Grand Jury votes a true bill by a 20 to 1 margin. All this simply on the strength of her testimony as it stood at that point, without any further elaboration by Lizzie.

[Angel]

Lizzie said she was in the kitchen when her father came home. That would have been impossible if he had tried to get in the side screen door because she would have been there to let him in, and he would not have found it necessary to go around to the front. Why didn't anyone confront her on this?

[Yooper]

Lizzie had gone from upstairs, to the kitchen, and back to upstairs by the time she was done at the Inquiry. Maybe they thought they had all they needed?

[RayS]

Lizzie said she was in the kitchen when her father came home. That would have been impossible if he had tried to get in the side screen door because she would have been there to let him in, and he would not have found it necessary to go around to the front. Why didn't anyone confront her on this?

Wasn't it the maid's job to answer the door?
Lizzie sat and sewed; that seems likely to me.

[Kat]

It sounds to me like Denise is asking about Abbie's death- the timing, the locks, who was where, and why.
Also, a duster is in question vs. a kerchief. Where is the duster is a good question!

[Shelley]

The whole case hinges on whether that side door was latched or unlatched that morning. Bridget tells Lizzie she can latch it as she can get water from the barn. We know Lizzie did not latch it because Bridget comes back in again to fetch the dipper later, and at 10:15 or so Bridget comes back in that side door- so it had to be unlatched from 9:15-10:15-20 when Bridget comes back inside and latches the door herself. This also makes sense if we believe Andrew had tried to come in the side door but could not at about 10:40-45. And I believe he did.

Abby was supposed to go upstairs to put the small pillows on the already made bed, and maybe work on some pillowslips. There was a workbasket in that room, her sewing machine, and somewhere I have read there was a yard measuring tape or stick on the floor. The thing on her head, when I saw it years ago was bunched up like a head cap or kerchief of some sort. Recently I have seen it quite flattened out, the silk is shredded in slits, and it looks more like a scarf. I suspect this has been done for conservation. I have always wondered who the company was Abby was expecting to stay on Monday. Maybe she wanted to make up the new pillow slips for them.

[snokkums]

I thought that Abby was making the bed at the time of her death. About the back door being locked, I have heard that it was and I have heard it wasn't. So I don't know one way on the other on that one.

[Shelley]

Abby had already made up the bed earlier in the day and had gone back upstairs to put the little pillows at the foot of the bed and work on some pillowslips. This is all testimony which I can dig out if you wish. There are only three doors- front, back cellar and side door. It is my impression that the family during the day favored using the side screen door which is the kitchen access ,back hall entry, and only way to get up to Abby and Andrew's room.

The front door was triple locked, the cellar door was locked and the side screen was open and unlatched at various times. As Bridget went in and out between 9:15-10:20 the side screen door must have been unlatched. Bridget came in to get a dipper, then came in after finishing the washing outside of the windows. The side door was unlatched at these times. Lizzie was inside all of this time -she could not know Bridget was coming in for a dipper nor could she know when Bridget would come back inside. I feel confident that the side door remained unlatched until Bridget came in the last time, then latched it herself.

I believe it was latched when Andrew came home but cannot prove that. It explains why he went to the front door to get in though and why Mrs. Kelly saw him coming around the driveway side of the house. If Lizzie really went to the barn at 10:55, then the door would have been unlatched for her to do so and would have stayed unlatched since Bridget was upstairs and Andrew in the sitting room resting. Lizzie says she was in the barn maybe 15-20 minutes which is clearly not possible based on when the alarm was received in the police station but we have already discussed all that in another thread. The side door would have been unlatched for Lizzie's trip to the barn maybe 10 minutes at the most before she came in and "discovered" Andrew on the sofa. She does not say if she latched the door when she came in from the barn. She then stands by the screen door as Bridget runs back and forth- whether she latched this door while this was going on, is not clear. I should not like to lock myself inside with a possible killer in the house, but then, personally, I do not think Lizzie ever went to the barn.

[Shelley]

Thinking about the return trip from the barn- if Lizzie heard a groan, a noise, a scraping sound, saw the door was standing open- I would imagine she ought to have been distressed and rushed in to see what was wrong. With that type of scenario, I should imagine she would not have taken time to turn around and latch the door behind her. Of course we know that you cannot hear a groan from the sittingroom out in the back yard, all of which makes the entire alibi of being out in the barn even fishier.

I rather think she added on the bit about putting her hat down in the diningroom later. Putting on a hat just to go up into the hayloft does not sound correct for the times. Had she been planning to go down to Sargent's- yes - a hat would have been mandatory apparel for a lady. Unfortunately Lizzie did not know when to quit embellishing, which is the reason I believe she was kept off the witness stand. Keep it simple- consistent- and stick to the same story.

[RayS]

It sounds to me like Denise is asking about Abbie's death- the timing, the locks, who was where, and why.
Also, a duster is in question vs. a kerchief. Where is the duster is a good question!

Wasn't Abby supposed to do something w/ pillowcases? Not dusting?

[Kat]

Prelim
Bridget
...
Q. Did you go out of the kitchen anywhere?
A. I was out in the back yard.
Q. What were you doing out there?
A. I was out in the back yard; I was not feeling very well, and I was out there.
Q. How long did you stay out there?
A. I might be out there ten or fifteen minutes.
Q. Were you at the water closet?
A. No Sir.
Q. I do not want to ask you any questions you do not want to answer about it.
A. I was sick to my stomach, and was out in the yard, and I was vomiting.
Q. Where in the yard were you?
A. Out near the pear tree.
Q. You went out there to vomit?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Do you know whether Mr. Morse went off at that time or not?
A. He was gone off then.
Q. How do you know?
A. I know he was.
(10)
Q. When you came back, did you see Mrs. Borden?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you see her after you came back?
A. Not until nine o’clock.
.....

Q. When Mrs. Borden said that to you about washing windows, do you know where Lizzie was then?
A. No Sir.
Q. That was the last time you saw Mrs. Borden?

Page 182 (11)

A. Yes Sir. She had the feather duster in her hand dusting the dining room. I left her there, and went back into the kitchen.
Q. When you went back into the kitchen, did you see Lizzie?
A. No Sir.
Q. Was she in the kitchen or dining room?
A. No Sir. I did not see her.
Q. You did not go in the sitting room then?
A. No Sir.
Q. You do not know whether she was in the sitting room or not?
A. No Sir.
Q. That was the last you saw of Mrs. Borden?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Where she went after that, you do not know?
A. No Sir.
Q. That was after both men had gone?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. When you came in from vomiting, did you hook the screen door then?
A. I could not tell. I do not know whether I did or not.
Q. Did you usually hook the door?
A. Yes. I always had a habit of hooking the door. I do not know whether I did it that day or not. I cannot tell.
.....
Q. Did you get the water in the barn?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Have you any idea how long that was after Mrs. Borden told you to wash the windows?
A. Half an hour I should judge.
Q. During that half hour you were engaged in cleaning up your kitchen?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What was Miss Lizzie doing?
A. I could not tell.
Q. Did you see her during that time?
A. I do not think I did, not to my memory.
Q. When was the next time you saw her after going out to vomit, then you left her in the kitchen?
A. Yes Sir, eating breakfast.
Q. When was the next time you saw her, was it when she came to the screen door, and you were outside?
A. Yes Sir, to my memory.
Q. During the meantime you had not seen her?
A. No Sir.
Q. Where she was, you do not know?

Page 184 (13)

A. No Sir.
Q. Had anything been said by either her or Mrs. Borden, in your presence, about doing up the spare room?
A. No Sir.
Q. Or doing the work in the spare room?
A. No Sir.
Q. You had nothing to do with the work in the spare room?
A. No Sir.
Q. Do you know who did do the work in the spare room?
A. I did not know as Mrs. Borden ever done it before, excepting her own friends were there.
Q. Whether she did it that morning, you dont know?
A. No Sir.

.....
17
Q. Have you any particular idea how long it took you to wash the windows outside?
A. No. I should think it was twenty minutes past ten when I got in the house.
Q. How do you fix that time?
A. By the way I had the other work to do.
Q. You estimate it by the amount of work you had to do?
A. Yes. I did not look at any time, but I judged by the work I had to do.
.....
Page 189 (19)

Q. You was then in the sitting room washing the windows?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What did you do?
A. I went and let him in.
Q. It was Mr. Borden was it?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Have you any idea what time that was?
A. It might be later than half past ten; I could not tell.
.....
Page 190 (20)

Q. Did you see her [Lizzie] then?
A. No Sir.
Q. How soon did you see her?
A. It might be five or ten minutes after, she came down stairs; she came through the front hall, I dont know whether she came from up stairs. She came through the sitting room, I was in the sitting room.
.....
(25)
Q. When you went up stairs, what time was it?
A. It might be four or five minutes to eleven.
Q. How do you know that?
A. By the length of time I was up stairs when it struck eleven o’clock.
Q. How soon after you got up stairs did you hear it strike eleven?
A. About three or four minutes.
.....
(27)
Q. When did you next see anything, or hear anything?
A. Not until Miss Lizzie called me.
Q. What time was that, as near as you can fix it?
A. I might be up stairs ten or fifteen minutes, as near as I can think, after I went up stairs.
Q. Have you anyway of fixing that, or is it just your estimation?
A. That is what I think, I did not look at the clock when I came down. That is the length of time I thought I was there.
.....

[Kat]

Hopefully this *timeline* by Bridget will give an idea of when the screen door might have been unlatched.

Notice the time she went out to vomit. Andrew was out there about that time and Mrs. Churchill saw him then too- approx. 9 AM. Screen unlatched.

With Andrew and Bridget both outside on the side and rear, and Mrs. Churchill espying him, there might be no opportunity for someone from the outside to enter. This is after Morse left. He left about 8:45 A.M.

[RayS]

The perfect time for an Intruder to enter the unlocked front door would be when they were at the back door. Then he had to merely climb the stairs to the now empty guest bedroom and be safe from discovery.

If Abby decided to go back agian and found him, that's why the best-laid plans of mice and men oft go awry.

[Shelley]

If Mrs. Churchill was seeing Andrew around 9 , then she was seeing also the side door and a small portion of the rear yard- the barn would have blocked some of her rear yard view. Do we KNOW for sure that all three front door lock devices were opened earlier? I got the impression the slidebolt was undone so thereafter the family, using a key could use the front door during the day.

I know that the front door had been opened earlier when Andrew answered the door, but I can't imagine it was left open and unlocked, right there on that busy street afterward. The fact that Bridget had to unlock all three locks at 10:40 indicates somebody had locked them. Time to revist the testimony on that locked front door again.

[Shelley]

Interesting to note the screen door was a slide bolt -not a latch hook From the Prelim: Bridget's testimony

Q. How was the screen door locked?
A. A bolt.Q. How the wooden door?
A. There was a fastener to it.
Q. You did not have anything to do with the front door?
A. No Sir.
Q. When you came down stairs in the morning, how did you find the back door?
A. Just as I left it.
Q. What did you do when you came down, about the door?
A. Started my fire.
Q. Did you open either of the doors?
A. The back doors.
Q. Both of them?
A. Yes Sir, and took in my milk can.
Q. The milk can was outside?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. After you took in the milk can, did you do anything to the screen door?
A. Hooked the door.
Q. Did you shut the wooden door up again?
A. No Sir.
Q. Left that open?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was that kept open all day?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. That was the habit at that time?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. How was the screen door kept at that time?
A. About quarter of seven I opened it for the ice man to come in.
Q. When you opened it, did you unhook it?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. After the ice man came in, did you hook it again?
A. I cant say, I dont remember.
Q. Do you know how that was usually kept, that screen door, hooked or not?
A. It was hooked most of the time. I kept it hooked as far as I could know about it.
Q. Did anybodyelse come in at the back door, that you know of, that morning, besides the ice man, and your going out to get the milk, and coming in?
A. I do not remember.
Q. You mean you do not remember of anybody else, or whether there was
anybody else?
A. No Sir.
Q. Where was your milk can?
A. Right on the back steps.
Q. Do I understand you to say whether you do not remember of anybody else coming in?
A. Not out of the house. I supposed the others were in the house. I cannot remember when they went or came.
Q. You saw Mr. Morse go out?
A. No Sir. Mr. Borden went out after he got down stairs.
Q. Before Mr. Borden went out, do you recollect seeing anybody else go out or in, besides the ice man, and when you went out yourself?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did you go out of doors that morning again before Mr. Borden went out?
A. No Sir.
Q. You went out after the milk can on the steps?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Did you go through the screen door again after that?
A. No Sir.

[Harry]

Interesting to note the screen door was a slide bolt -not a latch hook From the Prelim:

Q. How was the screen door locked?
A. A bolt.
Q. How the wooden door?
A. There was a fastener to it.
.......

I believe it's just the opposite. Either Annie White got it wrong or Bridget misspoke. Probably the latter.

[Shelley]

On the topic of the front door, letting Andrew in, Bridget, Prelim:
. How did you know he had come?
A. I heard him at the door. I cannot tell did he ring the bell or not, but I heard a person at the door trying
to get in; and I let him in.
Q. What was it you heard exactly?
A. Somebody trying to unlock the door.
Q. You was then in the sitting room washing the windows?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What did you do?
A. I went and let him in.
Q. It was Mr. Borden was it?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Have you any idea what time that was?
A. It might be later than half past ten; I could not tell.
Q. What locks on the front door did you find locked when you let him in?
A. The bolt and a common key that I turned on both sides.Q. Anythingelse?
A. No Sir.
Q. A spring lock?
A. Yes Sir. He had a key.
Q. He unlocked that from the outside?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Was that spring lock set to lock the door up when it was shut?
A. Yes Sir.

[Shelley]

Thanks Harry- for years I have been telling people the side screen door was a latch hook! Bridget kept saying "hook the door" so it sure sounds like it was a latch hook doesn't it?

[diana]

So, am I reading this correctly? Do Morse and Bridget disagree as to the screen door fastener?


Here's Morse at the Preliminary Hearing:
"Q: How was that screen door fastened?
A: With a hook.
Q: Where was the hook?
A: Very convenient, right on the side, to hook the casing, convenient height to hook to the casing.
Q: It is inside?
A: Yes, sir.
Q: An ordinary hasp? A: A little small hook just like that, hook right in.
Q: An ordinary hasp style of hook?
A: Yes Sir."

Morse at Trial:
"Q. Will you describe how that door was hooked as you unhooked it to go out?
A. A small hook right at the side, and hooks right in the casing.
Q. Was it inside or out?
A. Inside.
Q. And hooked into what?
A. Into the casing of the door.
Q. Well, into some steel or iron or metallic instrument?
A. No, I think not. I think it is just into the wood---I think it is.
Q. Do you mean to say that there was not any metallic or iron instrument into which it hooked---a ring of any sort?
A. My recollection is there was nothing there but the wood and that screw that goes into it.
Q. The screw is precisely what I wish to call attention to. Describe the screw into which it hooked?
A. A small round screw, a round place where the hook goes into it, the same as this would be.
Q. A screw, and on the end of the screw an eye for the hook to go in?
A. Yes." (Trial, 136)

Oops -- I was posting at the same time as Harry and Shelley. So my question was answered. I think we'd discussed this a long time ago, too -- and figured that Bridget was confused when she said the screen was bolted.

[Kat]

That's a good description Diana, of the hook- from Morse.

Thanks everyone for testimony!

Yes, Shelley, Mrs. Churchill would have a good view of the side door around 9 AM- that's about where she saw Andrew- and since Bridget was further back by the pear tree, that probably covers a sightline of the whole yard!

Andrew did leave before Bridget finished throwing up. I wondered at some point if the two had a rendez-vous out there after Morse left- otherwise I couldn't figure out why Andrew didn't seem to notice or react to Bridget vomiting- at least that we know of.

[Kat]

Ray, we don't know the front door was unlocked.
And if it was, it would probably be after the 9 AM man came. That guy disappears from testimony pretty quick- it's possible that was a mistake. Lizzie said it could have been the day before.
~ ~ ~ ~
Don't we think, if a man came Thursday morning, as Lizzie first said, that would have been thoroughly investigated?
I've always wondered about this statement.

[RayS]

Ray, we don't know the front door was unlocked.
And if it was, it would probably be after the 9 AM man came. That guy disappears from testimony pretty quick- it's possible that was a mistake. Lizzie said it could have been the day before.
~ ~ ~ ~
Don't we think, if a man came Thursday morning, as Lizzie first said, that would have been thoroughly investigated?
I've always wondered about this statement.

I the Jury find that the man who appeared at the front door was the Secret Visitor. He entered at that time, silently, for this ruse to let him in by Andy for a later meeting.
(Or the door was left unlocked for the Visitor to enter and set the locks. Leaving a door unlocked is a way for insiders to help with a theft. They don't take anything, they just facilitate it.)
Andy returns saying it was someone who was sent away. A great cover story since no one else was there.

Yes, I have no videotape or testimony for this, its just how things work.
If Andy opened the door he must have unbolted the night lock, which was not fastened during the day. Hence it had to be bolted again by someone. IMO

[1bigsteve]

I can't help but wonder what the outcome would have been for Lizzie if she had unlocked all three front locks before killing Abby (if she was the killer) and kept them unlocked right through Andrew's killing.

Lizzie could have said something like this to the police:

"I answered the door at 9:00AM and a man wanted to talk with Mrs. Borden so I let him in and directed him upstairs. I just assumed Abby would let him out. Later that morning I came in from the barn and found my father dead. The man must have killed Abby and hid in the house and waited for my father..."

By Lizzie unlocking the front locks and "forgetting" to lock them again she could have provided a method by which "the killer" could have escaped without having to relock the front locks on "his" way out. The police get there and see all three locks unlocked and they put it all together and assume: Lizzie opened the door to let "the killer" in and after killing Abby he laid in wait for Andrew and he then simply walked out the front door.

If Andrew locked the front locks after he entered the house Lizzie could have simply unlocked them again after killing Andrew, maybe even leaving the door ajar giving the impression that someone fled in haste. If Lizzie was the killer she probably didn't think things through far enough to provide a means of entrance and escape for "the killer." If she had I doubt Lizzie would have been suspected as much as she was.

Of course my theory is based upon the idea of Lizzie being the killer. She may not have had anything to do with it at all.

-1bigsteve (o:

[Kat]

So why didn't she do that? She could have unlocked that as her normal routine and claim the spring lock was faulty.
She didn't do that nor point anyone asking in that direction.

She could say the same of the screen door.
But I don't think she could about the cellar door- because Bridget would know more about that door- and also the cellar door might implicate Bridget.

There's a story that Leontine Lincoln was the man at the door Thursday morning, looking to make a romantic match between the families? Is that in Lincoln? Where is that?

[diana]

Right as usual, Kat. It is from Lincoln -- but attributed to relatives of Mrs. Kelly.

Victoria Lincoln says that defense attorney Robinson "vastly enjoyed making her [Mrs. Kelly] admit that her clock was an hour late, had now ceased to run altogether, and was "in other words, not much of a clock." But he let it stand that Andrew had not returned her greeting and that he carried something wrapped in white paper, size and shape unspecified, in his hand.
Apparently his fun with Mrs. Kelly hurt her and rankled; for one of her descendants told a researching acquaintance of mine that people came up from the railroad depot to set their watches by her miraculously accurate old clock.
From the same source came a fascinating story about the two men in the buggy. They were Victoria Lincoln's grandfather, "then a young man," and a youth he had brought to the house at that surprising hour as a likely beau for Lizzie; when Andrew slammed the door, they laughed and drove away. My grandfather, at the time a middle-aged man with a son who had entered the family business, was never the type to play Cupid's helper---not even when young, or at nine in the evening, I have his diaries." (Lincoln, 238+) [emphasis mine]

[snokkums]

Lizzie said she was in the kitchen when her father came home. That would have been impossible if he had tried to get in the side screen door because she would have been there to let him in, and he would not have found it necessary to go around to the front. Why didn't anyone confront her on this?

I thought she was upstairs. I mean, I read somwhere that she was upstairs when Andrew came home, and that she laughed, then came downstairs and lied to her father about Abby going out to visit a sick kfriend. Is my information wrong?

[Shelley]

It all depends on who you believe, snokks. I believe Bridget's first comment that she heard Lizzie laugh at the top of the stairs. Later on Bridget says she could not remember "where the girl was" referring to Lizzie. Mrs.Kelly saw Andrew rounding the corner and going up his front steps from the driveway side of his h ouse-unfortunately we cannot find any PROOF he tried to get in the side door, but it sure makes sense to me- why would he go back around and try to get in the front otherwise? And if Lizzie truly were in the kitchen, as she eventually decides, yes- she would have seen or heard her father trying to get in the locked screen door.

Since nobody came forward to say the note was written or sent by them, it sure seems as if Lizzie made that up to keep her father from prowling around the house looking for his wife. Yes, I think it was a lie- and a clever one- but it was not enough to send her to the gallows. So, I think your information is right on the dot- it is how one cares to interprete it I guess. I believe Bridget- and that no note existed- and oh by the way,- that Lizzie "dunnit"!

[Kat]

Lizzie said she had been in the kitchen when Andrew came home.
Then she said *or in the dining room.*
Further she said that he came home after she came downstairs- that she was not upstairs when he came home.

So far that is 3 times she said she was downstairs.

Then on page 61 (inquest) she says she was in her room upstairs.
Then on the stairs coming down.

This is very similar to her modifying her memory of being in the kitchen to: *or in the dining room.*

Finally, she does revert to her original claim that she was in the kitchen when Andrew came home.

To precisely answer your question, snokkums.
If you would like the context of these statements, please check Lizzie's inquest testimony.

[RayS]

Right as usual, Kat. It is from Lincoln -- but attributed to relatives of Mrs. Kelly.

Victoria Lincoln says that defense attorney Robinso "vastly enjoyed making her [Mrs. Kelly] admit that her clock was an hour late, had now ceased to run altogether, and was "in other words, not much of a clock." But he let it stand that Andrew had not returned her greeting and that he carried something wrapped in white paper, size and shape unspecified, in his hand.
Apparently his fun with Mrs. Kelly hurt her and rankled; for one of her descendants told a researching acquaintance of mine that people came up from the railroad depot to set their watches by her miraculously accurate old clock.
From the same source came a fascinating story about the two men in the buggy. They were Victoria Lincoln's grandfather, "then a young man," and a youth he had brought to the house at that surprising hour as a likely beau for Lizzie; when Andrew slammed the door, they laughed and drove away. My grandfather, at the time a middle-aged man with a son who had entered the family business, was never the type to play Cupid's helper---not even when young, or at nine in the evening, I have his diaries." (Lincoln, 238+) [emphasis mine]

I totally challenge that fictional account!!! There is no evidence for it at the time, or in the following 60 years.
It sounds like a 'Legend of Lizzie', a story made up for amusement.

[RayS]

It all depends on who you believe, snokks. I believe Bridget's first comment that she heard Lizzie laugh at the top of the stairs. Later on Bridget says she could not remember "where the girl was" referring to Lizzie. Mrs.Kelly saw Andrew rounding the corner and going up his front steps from the driveway side of his h ouse-unfortunately we cannot find any PROOF he tried to get in the side door, but it sure makes sense to me- why would he go back around and try to get in the front otherwise? And if Lizzie truly were in the kitchen, as she eventually decides, yes- she would have seen or heard her father trying to get in the locked screen door.

Since nobody came forward to say the note was written or sent by them, it sure seems as if Lizzie made that up to keep her father from prowling around the house looking for his wife. Yes, I think it was a lie- and a clever one- but it was not enough to send her to the gallows. So, I think your information is right on the dot- it is how one cares to interprete it I guess. I believe Bridget- and that no note existed- and oh by the way,- that Lizzie "dunnit"!

Arnold Brown provides an explanation for that note, and why nobody came forward to claim it. I believe it, given the rest of his book.

As I remember it, when B. said she heard laughter from the stairs L. said "it was me", a way to cover up the presence of that visitor. B. never challenged L. about this; she played along (as far as I know).

But somehow I just know that others will disagree with this, even if it makes logical sense.

[Smudgeman]

For God's sake Ray, Lizzie NEVER said she laughed!

[Harry]

For God's sake Ray, Lizzie NEVER said she laughed!

Tomorrow it will be the same thing. And the day after that, and the day after that, ---- repeat endlessly.

Not even Arnold Brown says that. In fact NO ONE says it. Lizzie doesn't even admit she was upstairs when her father came home. Her final version was that she was in the kitchen.

Maybe she could throw her voice like a ventriloquist. There, that solves it!

[theebmonique]

Yes...Edgar Bergen and his Lizzie McCarthy puppet.





Tracy...

[RayS]

For God's sake Ray, Lizzie NEVER said she laughed!

Tomorrow it will be the same thing. And the day after that, and the day after that, ---- repeat endlessly.

Not even Arnold Brown says that. In fact NO ONE says it. Lizzie doesn't even admit she was upstairs when her father came home. Her final version was that she was in the kitchen.

Maybe she could throw her voice like a ventriloquist. There, that solves it!

Its been some years since I read the book(s), but I remember the judge at the inquest mentioning the laughter from the top of the stairs. The judge said that if Lizzie was a man, no one would question suspecting her (or words to that effect). Surely he (or me) was not mistaken in this?

[RayS]

Lizzie said she had been in the kitchen when Andrew came home.
Then she said *or in the dining room.*
Further she said that he came home after she came downstairs- that she was not upstairs when he came home.

So far that is 3 times she said she was downstairs.

Then on page 61 (inquest) she says she was in her room upstairs.
Then on the stairs coming down.

This is very similar to her modifying her memory of being in the kitchen to: *or in the dining room.*

Finally, she does revert to her original claim that she was in the kitchen when Andrew came home.

To precisely answer your question, snokkums.
If you would like the context of these statements, please check Lizzie's inquest testimony.

Lizzie changed her story to cover up the presence of that Secret Visitor.
What other reasonable answer could there be? A mind addled by those sedatives? Perhaps.