I need to prove Lizzie guilty!

falloutgirl · Post by **falloutgirl** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 11:12 pm

I'm doing a court case in my English class on Lizzie Borden, I need evidence that proves her guilty, I need as much of it as possible and fast, I need to start writing a case up and present it next week any help at all will be greatfully accepted!!! Thank You So Much!!!

Thanks again,

Carrie

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 11:33 pm

You have some reading to do! Check the Primary Source documents: the Witness Statements, the Inquiry, and the Trial Testimony. Lizzie said something to Mrs. Churchill and Bridget about hearing Abby return from her errand, ask yourself when this could have happened. The end result is that it couldn't have happened, and the testimony indicates that it didn't. For some reason, Mrs. Churchill and Bridget found Abby in the very first place they looked for her, in the guest bedroom. Why? The parlor was on the way to the stairway. You will need to re-create the events from the time Lizzie told Andrew that Abby was out on an errand, shortly before Bridget went upstairs for a rest.

This does not put a hatchet in Lizzie's hand, it only proves she was not innocent, she knew who killed Abby and Andrew. How likely is it that she would have taken the rap for someone else?

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 12:20 am

Carrie,

Yooper is right, you have a lot of reading to do!

The following link will take you to the primary source documents at the Lizzie Borden library, I hope it will be of help to you:

http://lizzieandrewborden.com/Resources ... uments.htm

There is a great deal of information on this site, and it is the best place to start the write-up for your court case. Unfortunately, there was no physical evidence that proved Lizzie was guilty. I agree with Yooper; the best you will be able to do is prove Lizzie was not innocent.

Yooper, I hope you don't mind that I provided, Carrie, with the link to the primary documents.

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 1:16 pm

falloutgirl @ Tue Apr 03, 2007 11:12 pm wrote:I'm doing a court case in my English class on Lizzie Borden, I need evidence that proves her guilty, I need as much of it as possible and fast, I need to start writing a case up and present it next week any help at all will be greatfully accepted!!! Thank You So Much!!!

Thanks again,

Carrie

There is no evidence to prove Lizzie (or Bridget) guilty. Never was.
What some people have posted are merely inconsistencies in rememberances. This only proves bias, not 'evidence of guilt'.

Assuming constraints of time, the one best book is David Kent's "40 Whacks" which covers the case in a fair and balanced manner. Some have complained about this, but have never written their own book!!!

Edmund Pearson's "Trial of Lizzie Borden" from 1935 was correctly shown to be so biased as to be a literary hoax (by Edward Radin). But Radin created his own theory to counter the prejudice of the ignorant.

Don't say I didn't warn you. Did you wait until the last week? And just why did you get this assignment? Did you try looking this up on the Web?

I'm assuming you are a high-school student, and not a hoaxer who is out to create a fevered discussion like a now missing poster.

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 3:05 pm

CLICK

Tracy...

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 3:09 pm

Well, what do you think of the advice given, falloutgirl?

Bob Gutowski · Post by **Bob Gutowski** » Mon Jul 02, 2007 10:49 am

"Putting it my way," but maybe not as nicely, several of us have pointed the way. Now it's time for you to do your own homework, dear.

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Mon Jul 02, 2007 11:17 am

Falloutgirl has left the building! Only one post so far. Maybe she will be back.

-1bigsteve (o:

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 7:55 am

Bet she's still reading!! Lot's of interesting info on this site. But, hey fallout girl--would like to know how the case turned out for you. Bordenites are wanting to know. lol.

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 9:53 am

I often stay up late reading the info on this site trying to get it all in my head. You're right, Snokks, there is a whole lot here to read. I just hope the authors of future books on Lizzie and the murders spend some time here getting the facts, rather than repeating old myths, before printing their books, "final chapters" and other such rubbish.

Maybe RayS ran her off. Falloutgirl, RayS is gone so feel free to join in. We all would like to hear what you have to say.

-1bigsteve (o:

Nadzieja · Post by **Nadzieja** » Wed Jul 04, 2007 11:44 pm

I'm like you Big Steve. I'm usually reading late into the night. It's amazing how this one case can send you on quite a journey. I'm still reading alot of source documents before I get to the books. I would have loved to have listened to some of the conversations that were going on in that police station at the time.

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 1:44 am

Nadzieja @ Wed Jul 04, 2007 7:44 pm wrote:I'm like you Big Steve. I'm usually reading late into the night. It's amazing how this one case can send you on quite a journey. I'm still reading alot of source documents before I get to the books. I would have loved to have listened to some of the conversations that were going on in that police station at the time.

Yea, what I wouldn't have given to have been a fly on the wall with big ears and a Wollensak tape recorder. It is a very interesting case.

Have you ever read, "By Persons Unknown: The Strange Death of Christine Demeter?" It is much like the Borden case. She was murdered in Canada in the early '70's. A good book.

-1bigsteve (o:

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 2:41 am

Yeah, me too. I am usually up at all hours reading into the site,and then asking a whole lot of real dumb questions!! But hope fallout girl comes back. Would hate to think that RayS ran her off.

It's ok falllout girl, hes gone.

Bob Gutowski · Post by **Bob Gutowski** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 10:37 am

Pigs may be flying, and it may be snowing in Hell, for I find myself defending Ray. While I love new members who are here to learn and even challenge us with different ideas and sources we may not know of, the whole pox of "Hi! Do my assignment, and hurry" posters I've dealt with on many sites has given me a very jaundiced view of messages like the one we got from "fall-out girl."

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 11:41 am

I agree, Bob. There was no way on God's green earth that she would have been able to accomplish the task of obtaining evidence that proves Lizzie was guilty, and do this in a week's time! Good gravy, what does she think this forum is all about? I highly doubt that we will ever hear from "falloutgirl" again.

Tina-Kate · Post by **Tina-Kate** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 1:07 pm

A bit more info on Peter Demeter:

http://archives.zinester.com/56505/53970.html

As you can see, no Mr Nice Guy...

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 1:22 pm

Thank you, Tina for the info on Peter Demeter. I have often wondered what happened to that scum bag following the trial. Now I know. Thanks again.

-1bigsteve (o:

Tina-Kate · Post by **Tina-Kate** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 2:29 pm

You're welcome. I regret to admit this stuff all happened in my little corner of the globe.

Nadzieja · Post by **Nadzieja** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 9:17 pm

snokkums @ Thu Jul 05, 2007 1:41 am wrote:Yeah, me too. I am usually up at all hours reading into the site,and then asking a whole lot of real dumb questions!! But hope fallout girl comes back. Would hate to think that RayS ran her off.

It's ok falllout girl, hes gone.

Now Snokkums, I don't think any question is dumb. I'm sure I've asked alot of question that are repeats for the old timers, but I must say everyone has been more than gracious. As for fall out girl, I just got the feeling that she didn't realize how much there was on this case and might have been looking for an easy way out by asking. Trust me, the more I read, I'm sure I'll have more than enought questions. Someday I hope to be one of the old timers. Thanks for your ears & thoughts everybody!!

Nadzieja · Post by **Nadzieja** » Thu Jul 05, 2007 9:19 pm

Thanks for the info on Peter Dementer. I read it, and he sounds like one very scary dude. I wouldn't want to meet someone that devious EVER.

Cheryl · Post by **Cheryl** » Fri Jul 06, 2007 12:30 pm

The posts on this section have really made me giggle. Poor Fallout girl
(if she's real) waited to the last minute on a school project, paniced, and started searching the web for some quick research. I think that's priceless! Who hasn't procrastinated at the age of 14? I applaud her attempt, though. Wish we could have provided her the smoking gun she wanted.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Sat Jul 07, 2007 8:26 am

Fallout girl's post is entirely consistent with what I would expect a 14-year-old to do with a difficult and time consuming assignment. There is value in the lesson "don't procrastinate", too. If the assignment was to find evidence of Lizzie's guilt, then the only honest conclusion is that there is none, at least as far as I know. This may have been the point of the assignment all along, the research rather than the paper itself.

She has shown an interest in the case and I hope she will join us. If she didn't manage to write the paper she wanted this time, maybe she has the basis for an interesting write-up for a future assignment.

darthvader · Post by **darthvader** » Sat Jul 07, 2007 2:37 pm

The average person on the street does not know much of Lizzie Borden. I would be willing to claim most folks know who she is and assume she killed her parents with an axe. But that is it.

I mean show the average person on the street a photo of the most recent President of the United States and suprising amount do not know who it is.

So it is safe to assume that falloutgirl's junior high school English teacher would know very little about the case. If she just took any theory, Bridget the maid did it, John Morse did it, Emma did it, etc. and had some haphazard "facts" to back it up she could get an A+.

Remember most of our friends and family think we are pretty demented for obsessing the way we do.

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Sat Jul 07, 2007 11:40 pm

"...Demented for obsessing the way we do," Darthvader?

I don't know, I may be obsessive about collecting shingling hatchets exactly like Lizzie's HH head. I got four so far. I'm equiping them with new handles. Thing is I don't really need them so why am I buying them? I guess I'm a bit "demented" about this case.

-1bigsteve (o:

darthvader · Post by **darthvader** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:58 am

That is too funny, 1bigsteve. At the Fall River historical society I made comment they should sell replicas of the axe. My wife just shot me "the look".

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 4:54 am

I have a lizzie borden coffee mug and a lizzie borden mouse pad. Think maybe I am alittle obessive too? I can't count the number of books I have read on lizzie, either.

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I need to prove Lizzie guilty!

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