Lizzie's eyes

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Mon Apr 09, 2007 10:38 am

The primary thing that made me sit up and take notice of this case was the first time I saw a picture of Lizzie. Her eyes looked so strange to me that I was fascinated enough to read all about the murders. It was more than just the lightness of them. I remember having a patient once whose eyes were like that. It was like looking into the eyes of a dead fish. This girl was not exactly catatonic, but she was emotionless and remote. She was totally together with her thoughts, at least enough to function, but there was somehing so missing in her personality it was creepy.
Was there something back in those days that Dr. Bowen could have given her as a tranquilizer or something on a daily basis to perhaps keep her on an even level if she did have some kind of emotional instability? Or is it possible that Lizzie could be self medicating with morphine or whatever was so easily accessible at that time? People have commented on her oddness. Could it have been drug induced?

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Mon Apr 09, 2007 11:19 am

I agree, Angel, I have known shark-eyed people and they tended to be emotionless, almost as though their personality had been surgically removed! They seemed almost robotic with their actions and motivations. If Dr. Bowen had prescribed morphine, it would seem he was unaware that Lizzie may have been currently using it. Perhaps a druggist might have come forward with information about Lizzie purchasing potent medication?

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Mon Apr 09, 2007 1:12 pm

Yooper @ Mon Apr 09, 2007 11:19 am wrote: --- shark-eyed people--

That's a perfect description.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 12:38 am

All Lizzie's pictures, or just the ones in her later years?
Do you think she was having drugs from 17?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 12:39 am

Maybe she was nearsighted and had no glasses.

That would affect how her gaze appeared to others. Some people can't see and don't know it.

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 8:11 am

I'm talking about the pics taken in her adult years. People who need glasses don't have that kind of deadness in their eyes.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 5:20 pm

I often had a blank expression on my face when I was younger. I am very near-sighted. It used to be called to my attention that my gaze was *weird.*
I suppose if I had grey eyes it would look even more strange.
I also think Lizzie posed for her pictures. She might have practiced her *look* in the mirror. She also might have been directed to gaze that way by the photographer. I don't see her eyes as dead eyes, personally.
Maybe her *look* is in the eye of the beholder.
I would think if we met Lizzie in life she would probably look more animated than one imagines.

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 7:05 pm

If you look at photos of other people from Lizzie's time you will notice that a lot of people had that "look" about them. Lizzie's light gray-blue eyes probably made it worse.

Singer Georgia Brown had very cold brown eyes that gave me the creeps when I first saw her photographs. The way she looks into the camera in "The Seven Percent Solution" gives me the willies but inside Georgia was a very kind, warm-hearted woman.

A friend of mine was near-sighted and couldn't see clearly past 10 or 15 feet. She would be at a public shin-dig and people she had worked with would wave to her but she would just stare through them. People got the feeling she was another "Hollywood bitch" but it wasn't true. She just couldn't see. She didn't want to spoil her image by wearing glasses so she finally had prescription glasses made and tinted to look like sunglasses. It gave her a "cool" look and she could see long-range. She had to wear a nose guard between her nose and the glasses to keep bridge marks from showing up on camera but off the set she could strut around with her cool "shades" and no one was the wiser. In some of her close-ups her eyes look just a little bit off as if she is looking at someone who isn't there.

I sometimes wonder if Lizzie had the same problem. In that photo of her standing behind that chair she looks more like she is looking through you than at you. Actress Meg Foster had very light eyes that look a bit strange too.

Next time I see my eye doctor I'll ask him about it and let you know what he says.

-1bigsteve (o:

shakiboo · Post by **shakiboo** » Tue Apr 10, 2007 8:46 pm

1bigsteve @ Wed Apr 11, 2007 12:05 pm wrote:If you look at photos of other people from Lizzie's time you will notice that a lot of people had that "look" about them. Lizzie's light gray-blue eyes probably made it worse.

Singer Georgia Brown had very cold brown eyes that gave me the creeps when I first saw her photographs. The way she looks into the camera in "The Seven Percent Solution" gives me the willies but inside Georgia was a very kind, warm-hearted woman.

A friend of mine was near-sighted and couldn't see clearly past 10 or 15 feet. She would be at a public shin-dig and people she had worked with would wave to her but she would just stare through them. People got the feeling she was another "Hollywood bitch" but it wasn't true. She just couldn't see. She didn't want to spoil her image by wearing glasses so she finally had prescription glasses made and tinted to look like sunglasses. It gave her a "cool" look and she could see long-range. She had to wear a nose guard between her nose and the glasses to keep bridge marks from showing up on camera but off the set she could strut around with her cool "shades" and no one was the wiser. In some of her close-ups her eyes look just a little bit off as if she is looking at someone who isn't there.

I sometimes wonder if Lizzie had the same problem. In that photo of her standing behind that chair she looks more like she is looking through you than at you. Actress Meg Foster had very light eyes that look a bit strange too.

Next time I see my eye doctor I'll ask him about it and let you know what he says.

-1bigsteve (o:

Hi, Steve, I was gonna say that too, about other people who had there pictures taken back then, even the children looked cold, and lifeless. But didn't they have to stay in one position for a long time in order to have the picture taken? I've never seen one where any one was smiling, everyone just looks stern, to say the least.

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 8:13 am

How then do you explain Eli Bence's remark?

Nadzieja · Post by **Nadzieja** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 9:00 am

I think that in those old photos you had to stand very still for some amount of time. Even my grandparents wedding picture, I used to wonder because it looked like they were not happy. I really think it was the photography at the time. Another question, and by the way, thanks for the info on the crime library, when someone functions seemingly without emotion is this what is know as being a sociopath?

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 9:01 am

Like the color of her hair I have seen Lizzie's eyes described numerous ways. They were pale, gray, brown, blue, vacant, snake eyes, large, round, bulging, etc. You name it.

I place more value on the statements of the people who actually seen her than on photographs. None of the photos are in color and that makes a whale of a difference.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 10:40 am

I think what Angel is describing (please correct me if I'm wrong) is someone with expressionless eyes. Conversing with someone having that quality leaves me with the question of whether that individual actually meant what they were saying. Verbal expressions have the quality of being something they've been taught to repeat. I remember a line in an old song (John Prine?) about the "spaces between Donald and whatever he said" which might describe it. I agree, face-to-face is better than a photograph, but anyone with the quality in question is going to show it in a photograph. It may be that not everyone has known or met people of that description.

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 10:45 am

Exactly.

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 11:10 am

Harry @ Wed Apr 11, 2007 5:01 am wrote:Like the color of her hair I have seen Lizzie's eyes described numerous ways. They were pale, gray, brown, blue, vacant, snake eyes, large, round, bulging, etc. You name it.

I place more value on the statements of the people who actually seen her than on photographs. None of the photos are in color and that makes a whale of a difference.

True. Photographs can change the look of a person's eyes. I know a woman who's eyes appear brown in photos and on TV but they are actually grayish-blue. That really surprised me when I first met her. I quickly learned not to trust what I see in photographs. TV cameras can also make you look older and taller.

Lizzie's "look" in that photo of her standing behind the chair may have been her attempt at "mugging" for the photographer. People often pull something like that. I have. Lizzie's eyes in her earlier photos looked normal to me. In the later photo of her in the glasses she looked OK but a bit stern, like a school marm. "Johnny, don't make me get my hickory stick..."

-1bigsteve (o:

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 2:19 pm

Harry @ Wed Apr 11, 2007 9:01 am wrote:Like the color of her hair I have seen Lizzie's eyes described numerous ways. They were pale, gray, brown, blue, vacant, snake eyes, large, round, bulging, etc. You name it.

I place more value on the statements of the people who actually seen her than on photographs. None of the photos are in color and that makes a whale of a difference.

But how reliable are those person's descriptions? Were they modified for publication?

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 2:21 pm

1bigsteve @ Wed Apr 11, 2007 11:10 am wrote:
Harry @ Wed Apr 11, 2007 5:01 am wrote:Like the color of her hair I have seen Lizzie's eyes described numerous ways. They were pale, gray, brown, blue, vacant, snake eyes, large, round, bulging, etc. You name it.

I place more value on the statements of the people who actually seen her than on photographs. None of the photos are in color and that makes a whale of a difference.
True. Photographs can change the look of a person's eyes. I know a woman who's eyes appear brown in photos and on TV but they are actually grayish-blue. That really surprised me when I first met her. I quickly learned not to trust what I see in photographs. TV cameras can also make you look older and taller.

Lizzie's "look" in that photo of her standing behind the chair may have been her attempt at "mugging" for the photographer. People often pull something like that. I have. Lizzie's eyes in her earlier photos looked normal to me. In the later photo of her in the glasses she looked OK but a bit stern, like a school marm. "Johnny, don't make me get my hickory stick..."

-1bigsteve (o:

Do people in show business ever modify their appearance as part of the plot they play?
Tinted contact lenses go back to the late 18th century, or so I read. By aristocrats who wanted to change their written appearance.

SallyG · Post by **SallyG** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 3:50 pm

I've always been under the assumption that Lizzie had red hair. Is this accurate? If so, she probably had those pale ice blue eyes that a lot of redheads have. One of my sons is a redhead and his eyes are very pale blue, almost icy, and can appear lifeless in photos. However, he's a very intelligent and animated person. I have a feeling that we can't trust photos, especially old ones, to judge Lizzie's personality.

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 4:05 pm

Angel @ Wed Apr 11, 2007 8:13 am wrote:How then do you explain Eli Bence's remark?

theebmonique · Post by **theebmonique** » Wed Apr 11, 2007 4:10 pm

I agree. The difference in quality of photographs 'back then', compared to the digital pictures we can get now is phenomenal. I would imagine the quality of the known photos of Lizzie were at a 'digital' level, that we may possibly be able to get a more accurate idea about Lizzie's personality.

Tracy...

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 12:10 pm

SallyG @ Wed Apr 11, 2007 11:50 am wrote:I've always been under the assumption that Lizzie had red hair. Is this accurate? If so, she probably had those pale ice blue eyes that a lot of redheads have. One of my sons is a redhead and his eyes are very pale blue, almost icy, and can appear lifeless in photos. However, he's a very intelligent and animated person. I have a feeling that we can't trust photos, especially old ones, to judge Lizzie's personality.

I heard that Lizzie was red-headed too. She may have been a light redish-brown. Many redheads have blue or green eyes.

Have you ever heard of a woman's hair going from raven-black to a lighter redish-brown naturally without dyes? I know a woman whose hair did that. Of course it took years. Strange.

-1bigsteve (o:

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 12:41 pm

theebmonique @ Wed Apr 11, 2007 12:10 pm wrote:I agree. The difference in quality of photographs 'back then', compared to the digital pictures we can get now is phenomenal. I would imagine the quality of the known photos of Lizzie were at a 'digital' level, that we may possibly be able to get a more accurate idea about Lizzie's personality.

Tracy...

With the extremely slow shutter speeds and grainy film in Lizzie's early days I don't doubt that many people developed that vacant, far away look in their eyes simply from trying not to blink. Nobody likes to be photographed with their eyes half-closed. In the death photo of Andrew and one photo of Abby we can see the blurred images of a man at the far right edges. So by 1892 the shutter speed was still slow, especially in a darkened room.

I know from personal experience that we can't judge a person's personality by their photographs (boy, have I been guilty of this), no matter how good the image resolution, not even from a 35mm motion picture in technicolor. Film just can't pick up a persons real personality. Lizzie may have been a real sweet lady in person. Some people seem to have thought so. I hope she was. I also hope she was innocent of the crimes.

-1bigsteve (o:

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 12:59 pm

I don't know that any judgments are being reached about Lizzie's personality based upon photographs, just similarities which give rise to other questions.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 10:45 pm

Here is Lizzie's Official description in her arrest record. I assume they make these notes so as not to confuse one inmate from another and in case the prisoner escapes.

Her hair is described as "light." We had done a search in the past and found a consistency in that term which back then meant light brown.
The complexion is described as "light" also.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Apr 12, 2007 10:48 pm

Here is Bence's testimony at the inquest to which Angel refers:
162

Q. Did you recognize her as the one that you had had the talk with the night before?
A. I did, yes sir.
Q. Positively?
A. I dont think I could be mistaken.
Q. How did you judge?
A. I judged both from seeing her before on the street, and also by a peculiar expression around the eyes, which I noticed at the time, and noticed then.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sun Apr 15, 2007 8:02 pm

To be fair and balanced- here is a news item more in line maybe with Angel's opinion about Lizzie's eyes. Someone else, in September, 1892, thought that too.

Fall River Daily Globe, Saturday, September 3, 1892, 7
Lizzie Locked Up.
Her Home For Two Months Is Taunton Jail.
An Opinion That She Will Be Proven Insane.
Story Of That Dress Pattern Bought In New Bedford.

When Lizzie Borden said “Good Bye” to Marshal Hilliard in Taunton jail yesterday afternoon in response to a courteous adieu, she exhibited no more nor no less feeling than she showed when Officer Harrington and Marshal Hilliard first laid the hands of the law upon her three weeks ago Thursday.

Thursday has been a fateful day for the Andrew J. Borden family. It was on Thursday the sire and the wife were murdered; it was on Thursday Lizzie was arrested; it was on Thursday she was locked up in a jail; it was on Thursday last when the law was asserted and Lizzie was declared probably guilty of murdering her father and mother- no, her stepmother.

One of the prosecuting officials in the case, who has had peculiarly good opportunities for studying the defendant, made the following authoritative statement last night. He said:
“On the day of the murder, and very frequently since that time, I have talked with Lizzie A. Borden, and have watched her closely.

“During her entire examination I sat in a position to command a full view of her face. At the inquest I heard her testimony.

“I believe I have observed her more closely than any other person connected with the prosecution.
“What do I think?”
“In answering that question I will first explain my reason for framing my opinion of her. During 14 years official work for the State I have seen and dealt with many cases of insanity. I have been brought in constant contact with the inmates of the Taunton insane hospital and of the Worcester asylum.

“I consider myself as well qualified to judge a case of mental irregularity as any man who is not an expert on insanity or a physician accustomed to the treatment of brain disease.

“With such experience, basing my opinion on what I have seen of Lizzie’s eyes and movements, her physical makeup and mannerisms, I am loth to believe her a victim of mania.

“Her eyes have been very unnatural, and the way she has used them is identical with that of a person mentally deranged. This has been noted when her countenance was in repose, when it was not possibly assumed. The expression I have seen her wear time after time has been surely indicative of mental disturbance.

“She has looked wilder and more irresponsible half of the time the past fortnight than any person I have seen in the Taunton hospital in months. My opinion has been corroborated by an expert who was led out of curiosity to attend the hearing one day and observe her.

“As firmly as I believe she committed the murder, just so firmly do I think it the work of one insane. People may say, why doesn’t she show signs of disturbance now? It is well known that a person may be comparatively sound on all matters but one. That is the way I think it is with Lizzie.”

“When she has been locked up a few weeks, and the excitement of the examination is off, I shall look for a mental collapse and more definite signs of her trouble. In the event of my prediction coming true it would be only necessary to procure two doctors to examine her, and then, without more ado, an order could be given for her removal to the insane hospital, and that would be the end of the prosecution of the Borden murder case.

“This I really believe will be the ultimate result.

“If Lizzie’s condition is what I really think it is, such an end will be certain.”

If she is mentally sound and her counsel appreciates the true strength of the governments case, with comparatively little trouble, the same methods could be adopted with the same results. In either case, I would not be the least surprised if Lizzie Borden never came to trial.

shakiboo · Post by **shakiboo** » Sun Apr 15, 2007 9:52 pm

I wonder what he thought when she didn't break down, or show any more signs of violence? And then, stay on an even keel for the rest of her life. Who was this person? What else did he have to say about Lizzie? Sounds like they were gonna keep an eye on her. Were there anymore semi-self proclaimed expert opinions when she didn't do as he thought she would do? (ok, I'm prepared to duck the tomatoes) lol

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Sun Apr 15, 2007 9:52 pm

shakiboo @ Tue Apr 10, 2007 4:46 pm wrote:
1bigsteve @ Wed Apr 11, 2007 12:05 pm wrote:If you look at photos of other people from Lizzie's time you will notice that a lot of people had that "look" about them. Lizzie's light gray-blue eyes probably made it worse.

Singer Georgia Brown had very cold brown eyes that gave me the creeps when I first saw her photographs. The way she looks into the camera in "The Seven Percent Solution" gives me the willies but inside Georgia was a very kind, warm-hearted woman.

A friend of mine was near-sighted and couldn't see clearly past 10 or 15 feet. She would be at a public shin-dig and people she had worked with would wave to her but she would just stare through them. People got the feeling she was another "Hollywood bitch" but it wasn't true. She just couldn't see. She didn't want to spoil her image by wearing glasses so she finally had prescription glasses made and tinted to look like sunglasses. It gave her a "cool" look and she could see long-range. She had to wear a nose guard between her nose and the glasses to keep bridge marks from showing up on camera but off the set she could strut around with her cool "shades" and no one was the wiser. In some of her close-ups her eyes look just a little bit off as if she is looking at someone who isn't there.

I sometimes wonder if Lizzie had the same problem. In that photo of her standing behind that chair she looks more like she is looking through you than at you. Actress Meg Foster had very light eyes that look a bit strange too.

Next time I see my eye doctor I'll ask him about it and let you know what he says.

-1bigsteve (o:
Hi, Steve, I was gonna say that too, about other people who had there pictures taken back then, even the children looked cold, and lifeless. But didn't they have to stay in one position for a long time in order to have the picture taken? I've never seen one where any one was smiling, everyone just looks stern, to say the least.

Thats true, Pam. Shutter speeds were painfully slow in comparison to today. Many early cameras didn't even have shutters, the photographer had to open and close the lens using the lens cap with the "shutter speed" left up to the photographer's knowledge. The shutter speed was rated in seconds in those days unlike today's 1000ths of A second.

They had head and body "rests" that helped keep a person motionless during exposure. Sometimes you will see part of a rest in an old photo. The photographer advised people not to blink too. I can see someone sitting perfectly still thinking,

take

the

picture

damn

it! Having photos taken was not some people's favorite past time.

-1bigsteve (o:

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Sun Apr 15, 2007 10:00 pm

shakiboo @ Sun Apr 15, 2007 5:52 pm wrote:I wonder what he thought when she didn't break down, or show any more signs of violence? And then, stay on an even keel for the rest of her life. Who was this person? What else did he have to say about Lizzie? Sounds like they were gonna keep an eye on her. Were there anymore semi-self proclaimed expert opinions when she didn't do as he thought she would do? (ok, I'm prepared to duck the tomatoes) lol

I was wondering the same thing. The press often quotes someone as if they are experts when the person may only be giving an "opinion." Whatever excite's the public.

I guess they had "Dr. Phill's" in those days too?

-1bigsteve (o:

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 12:29 am

Well supposedly he is a "prosecuting official" who attended the inquest, he claims.
There were maybe 6 or 7 officials at the inquest at one time?
They locked the doors.
In the Knowlton Papers there is Dr. Edward Cowles,
McLean Asylum for the Insane, who was asked to come give his opinion of Lizzie - but the exchange of letters was after the Prelim., Sept. 22 and 24th.

If this really happened- that this person gave his view Sept. 3, 1892.

If I check my Hatchet article that is in the free download at the website, at the inquest I find, attending the inquest, day 1:
District Attorney Knowlton, State Officer Seaver, Marshal Hilliard, Medical Examiner Dr. Dolan, Mayor Coughlin, District Officer Rhodes, and "the district attorney's stenographer, Miss Annie Read [sic- 'White'], and a couple of police officials who were among the first called to the house of the Borden's...'" and of course Judge Blaisdell. (pg. 34, Aug./Sept.2005)

Personally, I think it might be Seaver. This person claims: "14 years official work for the State..." - or it may be fiction.

shakiboo · Post by **shakiboo** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 8:49 am

It just seems strange to me that no more was said about it....of course had she pulled her hair out and foamed at the mouth, while her eyes flew back in her head, we'd know who it was, he'd be the one wrho wrote the book "I Was Right About Lizzie Borden" lol

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 12:01 am

Well I didn't say no more was said about it. In fact, I found another item from much later that described Lizzie's appearance as "not such as to lead to a belief in a break down at any stage of the [upcoming] trial...A look in the prisoner's eye dispelled the question of her sanity. Nothing in her appearance indicated that she had lost her reason."

That was when Lizzie was being escorted on the train to New Bedford from the Taunton jail, for her trial. I think it was June 3rd, 1893. New Bedford Evening Journal.

Also, Seaver *talked* to the papers quite a bit- or else they made up stuff that he said. It seems to me he did talk a bit, but maybe that is just my impression.

Shakieboo, do you know about "The Sanity Survey' that was done amongst the Borden's friends about Sarah and Lizzie and the Morses? By Moulton Batchelder?

shakiboo · Post by **shakiboo** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 4:39 pm

I think I might have read something about it a couple of years ago when I was still reading through your archives, that's been awhile, so don't really recall much.....

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 7:47 pm

Harry has provided this for me.

Commonwealth of Massachusetts VS. Lizzie A. Borden; The Knowlton Papers, 1892-1893. Eds. Michael Martins and Dennis A. Binette. Fall River, MA: Fall River Historical Society, 1994.

Page 102

#HK102
Report, handwritten in ink.

November 24, 1892

H. A. Knowlton
District Atty.
New Bedford, Mass.

Sir,
I have interviewed the following named persons in reference to the rel-
atives of Lizzie Borden who said as follows:

Capt. James C. Stafford North St. New Bedford.
I use to know quite well the mother of Lizzie Borden, her name was
Sarah Morse. She had a sister and brothers. john now in Fall River,
another brother who is a Blacksmith and is now out West. Mrs. Morse the
mother of Lizzie Bordon was a very peculiar woman. She had a Very bad
temper. She was very strong in her likes and dislikes. I never knew or
heard of any of the Morses or Bordons was ever Insane or anything like it.
I use to live in Fall River and always knew the Bordens and the Morses.
Mrs Gray who lives on this St. may tell you something aboute them, also a
Mrs Almy who lives on Franklin St, Fall River.

Mrs. - Holland Daughter of Mrs. Gray Resides on North St. New Bedford.
Same house with Mrs. Gray. I never heard my mother say that Lizzie
Bordon her mother or any of the Morses is or ever was Insane or anything
like it. I always have heard that they were somewhat peculiar and odd. I
have heard my mother talk considerable about Bordens and the Morses
but never heard her say that any of them were Insane.

Abraham G. Hart Cashier Savings bank Fall River. I have live here most
all my life. I never knew much aboute Lizzie Borden or her mother. I
never knew much about the brothers of Lizzie Bordens mother. Always
known of them. I never heard that any of the Morses or Bordens was ever
Insane.

S. H. Miller 93 Second St. Fall River opp. the Bordon House. I have lived
in Fall River 64 years. Bordon use to work for me. I know the Bordons
and all of the Morses. the father of Lizzies mother was Anthony Morse. I
use to know his two brothers. Know the brothers of Mrs. Morse, Lizzies

Page 105

mother. One is now supposed to be out West. I never knew or never
heard that any of the Morses is or was Insane. Know they were somewhat
peculiar. Anthony Morse had two brothers George and Gardiner Morse.
I was not a witness at the trial. I did not intend to be. I saw Mr. Borden a
little while before the murder. Bridget, the Servant girl came running
into my house and said both was dead just then a man was passing I
called him and told Bridget to tell him what she told me. She did and
that man was a witness. I did not want anything to do with it and I did not
go near the house.

Rescom Case 199 Second St. Fall River. I have lived in Fall River 57 years
and I know all the Bordens and the Morses well. A sister of Mrs. Morse
(Lizzies mother, married his cousin, a man named Morse, they now live
here in Fall River. I use to know Anthony, father of Lizzies mother. He
has a brother now living in Warren Mass. the woman that was murdered
use to visit my house often, but she use to keep her affairs to herself pretty
well, but I assure you I have my opinion of Lizzie Borden and I hope they
will get more evidence. My wife dont know any more than I do aboute
the Bordons or Morses. We never heard that anyone of them is or ever
was Insane but I think some of them worse than Insane.

Nov. 26.
John S. Brayton Fall River. I have lived here great meny years. I know the
Morses Mother of Lizzie Borden was Sarah, her father was Anthony
Morse. I think her sister is dead. Anthony Morse was a farmer, after he
owned a milk route. I never heard of anyone of them as being Insane or
having any streak of Insanity.

D. S. Brigam Ex. City Marshal of Fall River I use to know the Morses
never heard of any of them as being Insane, but this girl Lizzie Borden is
known by a number of people here to be a woman of a bad disposition if
they tell what they know.

Geo. A. Patty, Fall River I did not know much aboute the history of the
Morses but never heard that any of them is or was ever Insane but Lizzie is
known to be ugly.

Mrs. Geo. W. Whitehead 45 4th St. Fall River Sister of Mrs. Borden who
was murdered never heard that any of the Morses was Insane but ugly.
Since the murder people have said if she is guilty she must be Insane.

Mrs. William Almy Franklin St. Fall River Always known the Bordens

Page 106

and the Morses, but for several years I have not known much aboute any
of them. Some 30 years ago my husband who is now dead was in compa-
ny with Mr Bordon. I use to know the brother of Mrs. Morse (Lizzies
Mother) also her sister. I think their was 4 brothers. I have never heard
that their was ever any Insanity or anything like it among any of the
Morses.

Chester W. Green 80 years old lives in Fall River and have for 40 years. I
know the Bordens and the Morses but I dont know much aboute. Never
heard as any of them was ever Insane or anything like it.

William Carr lived in Fall River for 40 years I know the Bordons better
then I know the Morses. The Bordons are peculiar people but I never
heard that any of the Bordons or the Morses is or was ever Insane.
Respectfully,

Moulton Batchelder .
Dist. Police
______________________________

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Apr 17, 2007 7:54 pm

The grand jury was called from Nov. 7th to the 21st.
This *Survey* was submitted Nov. 24th, 1892.
The grand jury was reconvened Dec. 1st, for Alice Russell's input and I think to decide against Henry Trickey as well.

Lizzie was indicted December 2, 1892.

RayS · Post by **RayS** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 3:31 pm

1bigsteve @ Sun Apr 15, 2007 9:52 pm wrote:...
Thats true, Pam. Shutter speeds were painfully slow in comparison to today. Many early cameras didn't even have shutters, the photographer had to open and close the lens using the lens cap with the "shutter speed" left up to the photographer's knowledge. The shutter speed was rated in seconds in those days unlike today's 1000ths of A second.

They had head and body "rests" that helped keep a person motionless during exposure. Sometimes you will see part of a rest in an old photo. The photographer advised people not to blink too. I can see someone sitting perfectly still thinking, take the picture damn it! Having photos taken was not some people's favorite past time.

-1bigsteve (o:

Its the film speed, not the shutter speed. By the 1880s film speed was fast enough for amateur photography (the Kodak) in daylight. Tripod for dim lights. Any good history of photography may tell you what you want to know.
Removing the shutter cap for an exposure goes back to the early days, 1840s to 1870s. But what do I know, I wasn't there as an eyewitness.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 4:45 pm

Here is something interesting describing Lizzie during the trial.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 4:50 pm

shakiboo @ Sun Apr 15, 2007 9:52 pm wrote:I wonder what he thought when she didn't break down, or show any more signs of violence? And then, stay on an even keel for the rest of her life. Who was this person? What else did he have to say about Lizzie? Sounds like they were gonna keep an eye on her. Were there anymore semi-self proclaimed expert opinions when she didn't do as he thought she would do? (ok, I'm prepared to duck the tomatoes) lol

Maybe he is reporting Lizzie-on-morphine?
And maybe later she was weaned off it and looked like everyone else?

It doesn't answer as to why some here think her eyes were weird in her later pictures tho.
I know Eugene thinks Lizzie had a strange look about her, too.

shakiboo · Post by **shakiboo** » Wed Apr 18, 2007 5:02 pm

I read somewhere , that as you age your eye color fades, so maybe having light eyes to begin with, and then having them fade even more made them strange to look at. Seriously, if you didn't know it was her, she looks like any other lady from that period. I think we see what we want to see, those who think she killed her father and step mother, see in her the monster that she would almost had to have been to do that horrible thing. When I look at that picture of her standing behind that chair, I see a lady, looking straight into the eye of the camera, who looks weary.

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Thu Apr 19, 2007 6:28 pm

RayS @ Wed Apr 18, 2007 11:31 am wrote:
1bigsteve @ Sun Apr 15, 2007 9:52 pm wrote:...
Thats true, Pam. Shutter speeds were painfully slow in comparison to today. Many early cameras didn't even have shutters, the photographer had to open and close the lens using the lens cap with the "shutter speed" left up to the photographer's knowledge. The shutter speed was rated in seconds in those days unlike today's 1000ths of A second.

They had head and body "rests" that helped keep a person motionless during exposure. Sometimes you will see part of a rest in an old photo. The photographer advised people not to blink too. I can see someone sitting perfectly still thinking, take the picture damn it! Having photos taken was not some people's favorite past time.

-1bigsteve (o:
Its the film speed, not the shutter speed. By the 1880s film speed was fast enough for amateur photography (the Kodak) in daylight. Tripod for dim lights. Any good history of photography may tell you what you want to know.
Removing the shutter cap for an exposure goes back to the early days, 1840s to 1870s. But what do I know, I wasn't there as an eyewitness.

The film speed determines the shutter speed. The slow film speed required a slower shutter. The brighter the light the faster the shutter could be and the photo would have a better image quality, provided the subject was perfectly still and the lens was in sharp focus.

I remember my grandmothers taking pictures of my family with a box camera they held at their belly level. We still had to stand still. And of course we all looked like we were leaning over a few degrees.

1840's - 1870's sounds about right. Are you sure you were not there, Ray? I mean you are always bragging about how old you are.

-1bigsteve (o:

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Thu Apr 19, 2007 6:42 pm

shakiboo @ Wed Apr 18, 2007 1:02 pm wrote:I read somewhere , that as you age your eye color fades, so maybe having light eyes to begin with, and then having them fade even more made them strange to look at. Seriously, if you didn't know it was her, she looks like any other lady from that period. I think we see what we want to see, those who think she killed her father and step mother, see in her the monster that she would almost had to have been to do that horrible thing. When I look at that picture of her standing behind that chair, I see a lady, looking straight into the eye of the camera, who looks weary.

Sounds very plausable to me. I don't know if eyes lighten with age, but I think you are right about people seeing what they want to see. Lizzie may have just been relieved and happy that her trial ordeal was over when that chair photo was taken. That was the only photo I remember seeing of her smiling. Of course she could also have been saying, "Yes, I got away with it."

-1bigsteve (o: