They Knew!

[augusta]

I recently came across a piece of hot testimony - I believe it was given by Emma during the preliminary hearing.

During the Inquest, Lizzie is asked by Hosea Knowlton about Andrew having a will. "No, sir" ... "No, sir" ... "No, sir" ... she repeats, unruffled.

And the newspapers all conclude that Andrew never had a will, so that was pretty much dropped.

On the stand, Emma is asked about a will of Andrew's. She says that Uncle John told her - or her and Lizzie - that Andrew was talking of making one.

John Morse had had two, I think, talks with Andrew where Andrew says he should make a will soon, and he talks of giving some land to the Old Ladies' Home. Did Andrew also talk about what he was leaving Abby, and what he was not leaving his daughters?

Morse was a blood relative to his nieces. Their mother was his sister, who died young. I would think he would want to see 'the girls' get all the money his sister would have gotten and not see it go to Abby. Tho he didn't get his will made, Uncle John did tell the sisters what Andrew shared with him.

I will look for the testimony on this. It's like 4 am here, and if I tried looking it up now, I'd end up quoting Hyman Lubinsky or 'Brownie'.

[SallyG]

I wonder what sort of relationship Uncle John had with Abby. Did they like each other, or tolerate each others presence? I always wondered about that.

I'm not sure that Uncle John would have cared either way who got Andrew's money...he probably realized that Andrew's first priority was to make sure his wife, regardless if she was wife #1, #2, or #15, was provided for in the event of his death. I'm sure he would have given a share to Emma and Lizzie as well for their continued support. Emma and Lizzie were not "entitled" to Andrews money just because they were his daughters.

Andrew probably mentioned it to Uncle John in passing, and Uncle John may have mentioned it to the "girls" after the murders, when they were probably wondering if Andrew had or had not made a will. I doubt Uncle John really cared how Andrew divided his estate...he probably saw that as Andrew's business.

[RayS]

I wonder what sort of relationship Uncle John had with Abby. Did they like each other, or tolerate each others presence? I always wondered about that.

I'm not sure that Uncle John would have cared either way who got Andrew's money...he probably realized that Andrew's first priority was to make sure his wife, regardless if she was wife #1, #2, or #15, was provided for in the event of his death. I'm sure he would have given a share to Emma and Lizzie as well for their continued support. Emma and Lizzie were not "entitled" to Andrews money just because they were his daughters.
Andrew probably mentioned it to Uncle John in passing, and Uncle John may have mentioned it to the "girls" after the murders, when they were probably wondering if Andrew had or had not made a will. I doubt Uncle John really cared how Andrew divided his estate...he probably saw that as Andrew's business.

My italics in the above.
No, the Law of Division declared an estate should be divided equally among the legitimate children. Primogeniture was made illegal in all states.
This law is still in effect in France (Somerset Maugham's daughter circa 1990?).
After the Civil War the Supreme Court declared that leaving just $1 would not be an illegal disinheritance.
Ever read those advice columns in the newspaper? They recommend splitting up an inheritance equally. What happened before death is another matter.

[augusta]

SallyG - Abby and Uncle John were nice to each other to their faces. But if you've read the piece posted on this site that came from the FRHS, it tells of an interview Nellie McHenry (Trickey's partner, McHenry's wife) had with Bridget after the murders. Supposedly Nellie was on the up and up and divorced her husband some time after the Trickey scandal. Nellie says she got in to see Bridget by saying she was a relative. In the interview, Bridget told her that when Morse appeared in the early afternoon of August 3, Abby was mad because of Morse just popping in unannounced, and he would be staying the night. Morse had a tendency to drop in unannounced. Abby warmed lunch over for him special, because the Bordens had already had their lunch.

If Lizzie and Emma thought when Andrew bought that half house for Abby that what he did for 'her people' he ought to do the same for his own flesh and blood, how do you think they'd react if Morse told them that Andrew was planning on leaving most to Abby and leaving the girls a much lesser amount?

Morse played a most curious role in the whole thing (the murders). It looks as tho he played some part, but what? He did meet with both Lizzie and Emma in New Bedford a few weeks earlier.

I do think his loyalties would lie with his nieces. Andrew's fortune would have gone to Sarah, his sister, had she not died, and I think it would be a personal blow to him to sit back and see Abby get most of it.

If you follow Morse's behavior on August 3 and 4, he did about ten suspicious things that I don't think are coincidences.

[SallyG]

I wonder what sort of relationship Uncle John had with Abby. Did they like each other, or tolerate each others presence? I always wondered about that.

I'm not sure that Uncle John would have cared either way who got Andrew's money...he probably realized that Andrew's first priority was to make sure his wife, regardless if she was wife #1, #2, or #15, was provided for in the event of his death. I'm sure he would have given a share to Emma and Lizzie as well for their continued support. Emma and Lizzie were not "entitled" to Andrews money just because they were his daughters.
Andrew probably mentioned it to Uncle John in passing, and Uncle John may have mentioned it to the "girls" after the murders, when they were probably wondering if Andrew had or had not made a will. I doubt Uncle John really cared how Andrew divided his estate...he probably saw that as Andrew's business.

My italics in the above.
No, the Law of Division declared an estate should be divided equally among the legitimate children. Primogeniture was made illegal in all states.
This law is still in effect in France (Somerset Maugham's daughter circa 1990?).
After the Civil War the Supreme Court declared that leaving just $1 would not be an illegal disinheritance.
Ever read those advice columns in the newspaper? They recommend splitting up an inheritance equally. What happened before death is another matter.

Ray, I understand what you're saying, and you are right; however, what I'm saying is that Andrew made the money with his own hard work, and he could leave it to whomever he wanted. No one is obligated to leave someone an inheritance, and no one is "entitled" to ANYTHING in life! Andrew could have left everything to Abby and been well within his rights. An inheritance is a "gift" not an "obligation"!

[SallyG]

I do think his loyalties would lie with his nieces. Andrew's fortune would have gone to Sarah, his sister, had she not died, and I think it would be a personal blow to him to sit back and see Abby get most of it.

"Would have" is the key here. Sarah died, and he remarried Abby. Abby was not a gold digger by any means, nor young and attractive. They had been married for quite a long time and were apparently content together. If Andrew died, what would happen to Abby? Could she get a job? No. Did she have a chance to remarry? Most likely not. She needed to be provided for until she died. That's what an inheritance is for...to provide for the person/spouse left behind. Andrew may have seen Emma and Lizzie as two greedy vultures waiting for him to keel over. I'm sure he would have given some provision for them, but he might have felt they were still in the position to marry and have a husband provide for them. Abby was not, and Abby was his wife.

[RayS]

...

If you follow Morse's behavior on August 3 and 4, he did about ten suspicious things that I don't think are coincidences.

GREAT!!! Start a new topic with these ten things.
I think Morse's popping in shows just how tight he was w/ Andy. He must have had information that could not wait for a normal appointment.
BTW how often do your close relatives make an appointment before popping in?

[RayS]

...
Ray, I understand what you're saying, and you are right; however, what I'm saying is that Andrew made the money with his own hard work, and he could leave it to whomever he wanted. No one is obligated to leave someone an inheritance, and no one is "entitled" to ANYTHING in life! Andrew could have left everything to Abby and been well within his rights. An inheritance is a "gift" not an "obligation"!

State Laws vary. You can ask your local surrogate (handles wills & probate).
Any will or contract that violates public policy (laws) is null and void. You can't leave money to a relative if they have to remain single, etc. or have to kill somebody. (As per a Perry Mason story.)
You do know how the 1965 Civil Rights Law was used to strike down old contracts that discriminated on race?

[RayS]

I do think his loyalties would lie with his nieces. Andrew's fortune would have gone to Sarah, his sister, had she not died, and I think it would be a personal blow to him to sit back and see Abby get most of it.

"Would have" is the key here. Sarah died, and he remarried Abby. Abby was not a gold digger by any means, nor young and attractive. They had been married for quite a long time and were apparently content together. If Andrew died, what would happen to Abby? Could she get a job? No. Did she have a chance to remarry? Most likely not. She needed to be provided for until she died. That's what an inheritance is for...to provide for the person/spouse left behind. Andrew may have seen Emma and Lizzie as two greedy vultures waiting for him to keel over. I'm sure he would have given some provision for them, but he might have felt they were still in the position to marry and have a husband provide for them. Abby was not, and Abby was his wife.

This has been discussed and chewed over. Traditional Common Law says a widow gets 1/3 life dowry, the children get to split the 2/3. after death the widow's share goes to the rest of the children Per stirpes.

Thank you for an intelligent discussion. I hope my memory was correct.

[Susan]

="SallyG @ Tue Apr 17, 2007 7:58 am If Andrew died, what would happen to Abby? Could she get a job? No. Did she have a chance to remarry? Most likely not. She needed to be provided for until she died. That's what an inheritance is for...to provide for the person/spouse left behind.

I found something interesting about Abby in the book I'm currently rereading Women Who Kill by Ann Jones, though I don't know if it can be authenticated or not?

Pg. 223:

And a proper lady needed a chaperone, a position that Andrew's second wife, Abby, for all her grand old Durfee blood, could never fill, for she too was a poor relation, the daughter of a blacksmith, and for a time herself a "tailoress."

If this is true, Abby had a job, a skill that she could have potentially fell back on if times were hard. I wonder if Rebello would have anything in it about Abby's past?

[Kat]

I think a lot of women could have been seamstresses back then. Something to fall back on. But as for Abbie herself, I had not heard that. And we know she was not of any famous Durfee family.

The widow in Massachusetts, a Commonwealth state, was not allowed to be written out of a will. I guess the state did not want to provide for her.

I just checked the 1859 FRCity Directory and Oliver Gray was a Blacksmith.
I thought he had another occupation later? I keep thinking teamster?
~ ~ ~ ~
BTW: Harry: Hiram Harrington is listed at 13 Ferry, and Abraham at 12 Ferry.

[Susan]

Thanks for checking on that, Kat, any info that backs up or dispels this author's claims is great. Yes, alot of women then probably could have been seamstresses, but, there were probably some that had more of a knack for it than others.

[Kat]

We have been trying to figure out why (Lil')Abbie B. Whitehead Potter ended up with Borden as her middle name, as seen on her headstone.
It seems that Gray family may have given the female descendants (Fall River) famous last names as middle names! Maybe a Gray married into the Durfees before Abbie Durfee Gray was born?

[RayS]

We have been trying to figure out why (Lil')Abbie B. Whitehead Potter ended up with Borden as her middle name, as seen on her headstone.
It seems that Gray family may have given the female descendants (Fall River) famous last names as middle names! Maybe a Gray married into the Durfees before Abbie Durfee Gray was born?

She was named after her rich aunt. QED. It was the custom.
Nelson Aldrich Rockefeller from three family names. There's more!!!

I understand the European custom is even more complex.

[Harry]

Sarah Morse, Andrew's first wife and the mother of Lizzie was at one time a seamstress. This is from Rebello, page 6:

"m 1. Sarah Anthony Morse, born September 19, 1823, in Somerset, Massachusetts, and died March 26, 1863. She was the daughter of Anthony Morse and Rhoda or Rhody Morrison, both of Somerset, Massachusetts. Sarah, a seamstress and Andrew, a cabinet maker, were married on December 25, 1845."

Possibly the author mixed up the two?

[RayS]

Maybe, I wouldn't trust those authors who have an axe to grind.
Andrew the cabinet maker? That is a step up from being a plain carpenter.
Is there something wrong about a woman or man who works? They can't all be born with a silver or gold spoon in their mouths.

[Susan]

Thank you, Harry. I don't know, its possible, the author does mention Sarah, but, nothing much about her past life. For someone like Abby who was supposed to have been living in genteel poverty before she married Andrew, I think being a seamstress was a perfectly respectable type of job for a woman to have at the time. I have to wonder if there were any other jobs at that time that a woman was allowed to do, was respectable and such. It would be lovely to have more info on Abby's early life, give us a more three dimensional look at her before she became the hated stepmother.

[Kat]

That is a good reminder Har!
Especially for those who don't have Rebello!
Thanks for the info on Sarah.

I don't think Ann Jones is very solid in her *facts*.