Which Teeth?

[augusta]

In the movie "The Legend of Lizzie Borden", and in the testimony I believe of Bridget, Andrew cleans his teeth at the kitchen sink/pump. I wonder if those were his false ones, or his real ones?

He and Abby both had some false teeth. Which ones were they - how many did they have? I'm thinking one had a partial plate and one had a bridge.

I'll bet Andrew didn't waste money on cherry-flavored tooth powder. I think baking soda came out in 1892 (I may be wrong). I'd think he used plain water.

[Kat]

Can he clean his teeth while they are still in his mouth?
I would think that he could, but I don't know for sure.

[Allen]

I dont know much about how false teeth were made then, but today it is more sanitary to clean them when they are removed from the persons mouth. It's difficult to clean them properly when they are in the mouth. I worked in a geriatric center for a time, and as a part of my duties I cleaned some of the residents false teeth. I have heard my grandparents state certains things about the way they keep theirs clean also. I am not sure what kind of adhesive, if any, they used back then. But bits of food can become lodged underneath if the plate during chewing, especially if they are loosely adhered. To clean away these bits the teeth must be removed.

[snokkums]

In the movie "The Legend of Lizzie Borden", and in the testimony I believe of Bridget, Andrew cleans his teeth at the kitchen sink/pump. I wonder if those were his false ones, or his real ones?

He and Abby both had some false teeth. Which ones were they - how many did they have? I'm thinking one had a partial plate and one had a bridge.

I'll bet Andrew didn't waste money on cherry-flavored tooth powder. I think baking soda came out in 1892 (I may be wrong). I'd think he used plain water.

I did not know that Andy and Abby had bad teeth.

[Kat]

Autopsy of Andrew:
"Artificial teeth in upper jaw."
http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Crime ... Borden.htm

Autopsy of Abbie:
"Artificial teeth in upper jaw."
http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Crime ... Borden.htm

As Augusta said, it's not known if there existed a partial plate or a bridge- not just a full upper denture. I think someone with a partial or bridge could rinse their mouth (clean teeth) without removing it each time they ate, couldn't they?

If they had their teeth worked on, then then they weren't "bad' anymore, yes?

[Shelley]

Fascinating topic- toothpaste and brandnames. I found a cherry tooth powder popular in the UK in the 1890's called Daniel Meliack's Cherry Tooth Powder and another in France , Dr. Pierre's Pate Dentifrice. I recall tooth powders in the 1950's, they came in a can like talcum powder. Then came the "ribbon dentifrices"- tube toothpastes. Remember Ipana when it first came out? Brusha, brusha, brusha, new Ipana toothpaste with those three dancing beavers with buck teeth dancing in black and white on your 10 inch television screen?

Here's a neat Massachusetts fact: In 1885, the Florence Manufacturing Company of Massachusetts, in association with Dr.Rhein, began producing the Pro-phy-lac-tic brush for mass marketing in the United States. Maybe Andy had one of these- the bristles were made of stiff swine hairs. Ugh. The familiar nylon bristles did not appear until 1938. Seems like many people did not bother to brush their teeth in early Victorian days- toothpicks, gargles and mouthwashes standing in for better
hygiene. No wonder they were popping pastilles and soda mints in their mouths! Salt and baking soda were the abrasives of choice for my Grandfather- before the dentures.

Looking on ebay, toothpowder tins get big bucks- the really old ones going in the 50-60 dollar range and the ones from the 1950's about $25. I remember my granny using a plate adhesive called Fasteeth which was a powder sprinkled on the dentures like talcum.

[Allen]

edit

[Allen]

I know next to nothing about how false teeth were made, or adhered into the mouth in 1892. I was going by what I know of them today. But if we are unsure as to what kind of dentures they had, I am not sure we could judge the proper procedure for cleaning them. Interesting information Shelley. I think the best idea if to figure out the proper method, would be to find out a little more on the subject of victorian false teeth and their adhesives, and methods for cleaning them.

[Susan]

From the autopsy report it sounds to me like it wasn't a full denture plate for either of the elder Bordens. I did a search on Victorian false teeth and came up with this:



The Crystal Palace of 1851 housed the first great international exhibition and was the forerunner of the world's fair. Made entirely of slender iron rods and glass, the hall covered an area of 900,000 square feet (92000 square meters), or about 23 acres. Some 14,000 exhibitors turned up, including developers of ceramic false teeth and McCormick's steam-powered reaper.

From this site: http://www.themysterybox.com/Features/rv/



And this:

1822
American Charles Graham is awarded a patent for his design for false teeth.
English poet Percy Bysshe Shelley drowns off the Italian coast at the age of 29, while sailing his small schooner home to La Spezia, after visiting the poet Byron at Livorno.

From this site: http://www3.bc.sympatico.ca/charlotte_t ... t-1800.htm

And this:

Fortunately for the toothless, French dentist Dubois de Chement and pharmacist Duchateau invented a hard-baked, rot-proof set of porcelain dentures in the late 1700s. Italian dentist Giusseppangelo Fonzi created the single porcelain tooth on a pin and attached to a metal plate in 1808.

Mass marketing of dentures began in the early 1800s. One of the greatest improvements to dentures came in 1839 when Charles Goodyear invented vulcanized rubber. This rubber was cheap and flexible making the false gum fit the mouth properly. When less painful tooth extraction became possible, the number of dentures sold increased dramatically.

Dental innovations like putting fluoride in drinking water, regular dental visits and improved dental hygiene reduced the number of people needing dentures, though many people still rely on this invention.

From this site: http://www.history-magazine.com/trivia.htm

And this:

Vulcanite is the common name for Vulcanised Rubber or Hardened Rubber. This process, that of heating rubber with sulphur to harden the rubber, was first used by the American Charles Goodyear in 1839. The required amount of hardening can be produced by varying the proportion of sulphur added. Between 25 and 50 percent sulphur gives a hard product with the familiar feel of 'plastic'. Many Victorian Vulcanite objects can easily be found. The commonest form is an imitation of jet used widely in the production of Brooches, Bracelets and Necklaces. It could be produced in almost any colour, although black (Ebonite) and brown predominate. A pink variety was extensively used in the production of false teeth. I believe that it is still used for this purpose.

From this site: http://www.mernick.co.uk/victplas.htm

Though not Victorian, I thought this was interesting:

Washington's false-teeth might have been more comfortable had they been made of wood. The historic choppers on view in New York have teeth set in jointed metal frames, operated with springs.

One of the teeth is Washington's own. The others are carved from a cow's tooth and hippopotamus ivory. There's even a courteous letter from Washington asking his dentist to make needed repairs.

From this site: http://victorian.fortunecity.com/plath/ ... nm1226.htm



This site holds tons of info on Victorian dentistry, very informative:

http://www.answers.com/topic/dentistry

[augusta]

Kat, I didn't mean to say that nobody knows which teeth were false with the Bordens. I meant that I myself didn't know. What you quoted from the autopsy report is my reason for looking for more - it's so non-specific. I thought I did read somewhere, tho, that at least one of them had a bridge or a partial. So I think that is out there somewhere - but is the writer accurate or not, if found?

This is an interesting subject. Paul Revere did dentistry??? Porcelain and ceramic teeth that early? I was going to post that George Washington really didn't have wooden teeth. Susan's post on that was great. I'd seen a picture of them before, but I didn't know what they were made of. It would have been interesting to see him talk. I wonder if he just said the heck with it when eating and took 'em out and ate mashed potatoes all the time. Thanks for all the neat URL's, Susan! Sweet and smart - all in the same package.

I enjoyed Allen's posts. I get to clean my mom's teeth every morning. She has a full set of dentures. Boy, without them I have a hard time understanding what she says.

She places them in a container filled with water overnight. In the morning, I put in one Efferdent tablet that'll fizz and clean them in 15 minutes. I rinse them and use a little brush to brush what little is left on them. I dry them with a paper towel and then dot on Polygrip. I hand them to her, and she puts them in herself. There are strips of adhesive you can use, too. I bought her a box but haven't tried them yet. Well, when I get old/er I'll know what to do!

At the traveling Titanic exhibit, there was a little container of that cherry tooth powder. When I was little all I remember was Crest-like products. I thought gee, why don't they make toothpaste in flavors? It's nice that there are a few flavors coming out nowadays. That 'lemon ice' is really good.

I've come across a few passages mentioning Lizzie going to the dentist. It would be great if someone could find out who her dentist was and, tho it's probably long gone, see her file. How many dentists were in Fall River in 18892? *(Every time I type a nine, an eight appears ahead of it. Ah! Some teenager who lives in this house and shall remain nameless, got gunk between the keys and they were stuck together. I guess all computer problems are not technical ones.)

[Allen]

Yes, that was quite a nice of bit research Susan. It provides some very interesting information and gives an added incite. Thanks. When it comes to teenagers and computer problems I definitely know what you mean augusta. My biggest problem is spyware downloaded along with programs they are installing on the computer. Makes you want to pull your hair out sometimes. I got on my computer one day, clicked on browser, and my homepage had been hijacked. It was set to a page to download...of all things...antispyware.

[Kat]

Kat, I didn't mean to say that nobody knows which teeth were false with the Bordens. I meant that I myself didn't know. What you quoted from the autopsy report is my reason for looking for more - it's so non-specific. I thought I did read somewhere, tho, that at least one of them had a bridge or a partial. So I think that is out there somewhere - but is the writer accurate or not, if found?

Yes I know- I was answering someone else by giving the link and quote of the autopsy. And the link is for everyone.

We had read in the papers that Lizzie had a glint of gold in her mouth around trial time, haven't we? I'm still tring to picture that!

Thanks Susan very much for the info!

[Nadzieja]

I really found this link very fascinating. I cannot imagine what it was like for a tooth extraction back then or even trying to fit false teeth. I didn't realize they were developed that early. I remember when I was a kid they were debating about flouride and its uses. And for some reason I think I remember a toothpast called "Stripe". Do you think that there is a possiblility that any of the Bordens dental records would still be around? Without brushing or flossing can you imagine all the tooth ailment there must have been!!!

[snokkums]

I am sure Andrew did do what he needed todo to clean his teeth. He might have cleaned his teeth at the ktchen sink because that's where the running water was at. I could be wrong, though, just a guess.

[Susan]

You're all welcome, glad to find the info. If the elder Bordens had bridgework it wouldn't come out, right? Isn't bridgework a permanent sort of fix for missing teeth? If thats the case, I would imagine you would just use a regular toothbrush to clean the false teeth like you would regular ones.

[augusta]

Yes, it's established that Andrew cleaned his teeth in the kitchen sink thru Bridget's testimony, Snookums.

I've come across pieces here and there that mention Lizzie going to the dentist - walking to one in Fall River at one time. Maybe she changed dentists after the trial. If he thought I was guilty of the murders, I wouldn't trust the guy with me alone with a drill in his hand.

I'd think Lizzie would go to The Dentist in town - the one her socialite acquaintances went to before the murders. Andrew probably went to some hack down an alley who would pull teeth for a nickel each or something. (Well, I guess I'd have to assume he went to a real dentist for the false teeth.)

Before August of 1892, no one would know how neat the Bordens' dental records were. But after that, I'd think they would save - well, Lizzie and Emma's. Thinking it over after your post, Nadz, I think it's possible some may be out there somewhere. I wish we could find out who her dentist was.

[Kat]

What? A piece about Lizzie walking to the dentist? I only recall Mrs. Kelley and her dentist.

I thought the only reference to Lizzie's teeth was the new glint of gold. That was in a newspaper description. Harry would remember that one.

[augusta]

Yes, I've read in two - the most three - places about Lizzie going to the dentist. I added the "walk" myself, because when she lived with her father I figured she would have walked. They were buried somewhere in some newspaper articles I will probably never find again. I really sat up when I came across each, because I have wondered for years who her dentist was and what procedures she had done (I never read of what the procedures were).

Where does the reference to her having "gold" in her mouth come from? Maybe ... after she took the axe to Abby, she bit her too in the head and got gilt off the hairpins ...

My daughter was printing out some research for me one day and came across a real neat little tidbit on Lizzie I had never read before. It was out of a newspaper article of the era. Can't lay my hands on it at the moment. It's in this huge, messy pile of papers on the window seat in my bedroom.

[Harry]

From de Mille's "Dance of Death", page 27:

"During the trial, she rubbed her button boots across one another in nervousness. The shoes were shined each morning. She had had a good deal of dental work done and there was a gleam of gold when she smiled. She opened her mouth wide when she laughed, and her laugh was memorable---unexpected, mirthless, and very loud."

No wonder Bridget heard her on the landing. Assuming it was her of course.

[augusta]

Thank you, Harry! I read DeMille and don't remember that. I should read it again. I loved that first part. The second part was about the ballet, and I never read it.