Fear of intimacy

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 4:08 pm

I was trying to find something on people who prefer animal companionship over people companionship because it is safer emotionally. I see famous people who have led crazy lives eventually becoming hermit-like and becoming super involved with their animals and animal rights issues. I wonder if that's what Lizzie did. Examples: Doris Day, Kim Novak, Bridget Bardot, Tippi Hedren. They're all living in remote places on farms or ranches and raising llamas and other things, spending all their time with their creatures.

bobarth · Post by **bobarth** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 4:51 pm

Angel: Wow you are on a roll this week!!!!

I think perhaps one comes to a point in life where they absolutely cannot trust people ever again. I would think that Lizzie was shunned by everyone and therefore had no use for people. I think she became very misanthropic with good reason. That was the only way to protect herself, but needing companionship and love she turned to animals. I bet this is more common than we think.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 6:14 pm

Angel @ Fri Apr 27, 2007 3:08 pm wrote:I was trying to find something on people who prefer animal companionship over people companionship because it is safer emotionally. I see famous people who have led crazy lives eventually becoming hermit-like and becoming super involved with their animals and animal rights issues. I wonder if that's what Lizzie did. Examples: Doris Day, Kim Novak, Bridget Bardot, Tippi Hedren. They're all living in remote places on farms or ranches and raising llamas and other things, spending all their time with their creatures.

There have been some discussions about this issue in threads here on the forums if you want to check those out. But starting a thread devoted to it would be a good topic of discussion. I have the opinion that I think Lizzie prefered animals over people because they couldn't talk back, couldn't tell her what to do, and didn't want anything to do with her money. They would also love her unconditionally and there was no fear of emotional or physical abuse or rejection. I think it's a definite possibility, and a discussion on the subject be interesting.

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 6:29 pm

A pet doesn't care what you look like, what kind of a car you drive, how fat your butt may look in those pants or what kind of an S.O.B you may happen to be. That pet will love you unconditionally!!

-1bigsteve (o:

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 6:34 pm

If Lizzie did that, it would be interesting to know whether it was out of choice or necessity.

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 6:38 pm

Yooper @ Fri Apr 27, 2007 2:34 pm wrote:If Lizzie did that, it would be interesting to know whether it was out of choice or necessity.

I would imagine both probably. I think Lizzie loved animals from the start and later, when the town turned against her, she returned to animals for companionship. A sad way of living a life.

-1bigsteve (o:

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 7:02 pm

From what we have read about how people perceived Lizzie it would seem she started out having difficulty relating to people to begin with. She was shy at school, sometimes surly, considered somewhat odd. She seemed to extend herself a bit five years before the murders, but I'm sure she had quite a setback when the town started to snub her.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 7:47 pm

This is interesting, Angel, I really hadn't thought about it! Lizzie seemed to be people oriented to an extent before the murders, she was supposedly planning to go to Marion to be with friends before the murders. It seems to me that if she had been more animal oriented at the time she might have spent more time at the farm in Swansea. There doesn't seem to be much known about her visits there, whether she may have gone there on her own rather than with the family. For a person who enjoyed animals, it would have been an ideal place to spend some time, even if only occasionally, and she probably would have taken the initiative to go there on her own.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 9:19 pm

Reading up just lately on the breed of Boston Bull Terriers, after watching Westminster Dog Show, I learned they were a breed developed and kept by society folks , a real blueblood lapdog for ladies of refinement in the toney Back Bay area of Boston. They were first shown in 1870 and accepted by the AKC in 1893- just in time for Lizzie's move into Maplecroft. High society pooch- I think that may say something about Lizzie-I mean, can you see her with a beagle?

shakiboo · Post by **shakiboo** » Fri Apr 27, 2007 11:12 pm

Shelley @ Sat Apr 28, 2007 2:19 pm wrote: High society pooch- I think that may say something about Lizzie-I mean, can you see her with a beagle?

That's too funny!

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Apr 28, 2007 1:41 am

1bigsteve @ Fri Apr 27, 2007 6:29 pm wrote:That pet will love you unconditionally!!

-1bigsteve (o:

I was just thinking about this today, whilst lying in the sun!

(It was 88 degrees)

I was thinking of my cat Sweety who acts like a little dog.

I am of the opinion that she doesn't *love* me per se. I think that is anthropomorphism.

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:05 am

I think that Lizzie might just have been a bit leary of trusting people. Also she might not have had many friends because, who wants to be friends with an accused axe murderer? I think most people in Fall River thought she was guilty, so there probably wasn't to many friends out there. Just animals. Besides, animals love you know matter who you are.

shakiboo · Post by **shakiboo** » Sat Apr 28, 2007 11:06 am

I wonder if Lizzie was allowed to have any kind of pet when she was a child, or actually, if she was even allowed to be a child. The years from birth to five are so very important, she only had her mother till she was two, and I'm sure some of that time Sarah was ill, so that cut the time even more. Emma being so much older then Lizzie, and having to take care of her, would have been more of the mother fiqure then Abby, so there probably wasn't alot of child play for Lizzie. Did Lizzie get to run and play, or jump rope or giggle like girls do? I somehow don't think so, that would explain why she was such and odd duck in school, maybe her laugh was strange because it had been stiffled, and frowned upon. It would make it very hard for her to fit in with the other little girls and yet the need to belong and fit in would always be there. Having had a puppy to snuggle with and play with and love could have made a huge difference for her. It could have been something she would have wanted as a child, and just wasn't allowed to have.

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Sat Apr 28, 2007 11:21 am

In her will, Lizzie says: To the Animal Rescue League of said Fall River, the sum of thirty thousand dollars, also my shares of stock in the Steven Manufacturing Company. I have been fond of animals and their need is great and there are so few who care for them."

From what I call The Lizzie Borden Bible - Rebello, pg. 330

Those sound like the words of a big animal lover. Maybe she wanted a pet before 1892 and Andrew said: "No! I'll not have our grocery bill fattened by a pet in my house." "But, Father, our pears are free." "I use those pears, girl. I - uh, throw them under the bahn. I'll not have animals rob me of the benefits of those pears helping to hold up the foundation." He did kill those pigeons ...

Emma gave "to the Animal Rescue League of Fall River, the sum of Twenty Thousand Dollars ($20,000)..." (Rebello, p. 344)

Was she an animal lover too? She gave to a lot of different charities in her will. Was it just 'a charity that did good' to her, or was she genuinely fond of them?

Emma also left a trust, in which one of the shares was "to pay one of said shares to the Animal Rescue League of Fall River, to be used for its general purposes". (Rebello, pg. 346)

In Emma's codicil dated 1920, she bequeathed part of a trust she made to The Rhode Island Hospital Trust Company of Providence, Rhode Island, - an additional $5,000 "for the benefit of the Providence Animal Rescue League of the City of Providence, to become a part of the principal of said trust fund and to be subject to all the provisions of said trust..." Later, in the same paragraph she says, "I do give and bequeath a further sum of Fifteen Thousand Dollars ($15,000) to said Rhode Island Hospital Trust Company to be held by it in like manner for the benefit of the Providence Animal Rescue League of the City of Providence under the terms of same trust ..." (Rebello, pg. 348)

So Emma left $20,000 to the Fall River Animal Rescue league, and also $20,000 to the Providence Rescue League? Thats-a lotta meatballs.

shakiboo · Post by **shakiboo** » Sat Apr 28, 2007 11:41 am

Maybe they both as children wanted to have pets and just weren't allowed. I somehow can't see Abby wanting to have the mess that pets can bring into a house either, so she probably would have been against the girls having one.

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Tue May 01, 2007 3:01 am

Sometimes animals are more understanding and loving than people are. Animals have tendancy to love unconditionaly, humans don't.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue May 01, 2007 11:43 pm

I still think animals are attached to people rather than *love* them. The ones we have domesticated have a right to expect our loving care, tho.

Does anyone remember that we've heard Lizzie's interest in Humane Treatment of animals may have started with her concern over the mistreatment of draft horses?

If she started out loving horses, when Andrew got rid of their horse might have affected her more than the pigeons.

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Wed May 02, 2007 11:29 am

Kat - No, I had not heard of Lizzie and the draft horses. Do you remember the source for it? Can you tell us the story?

I vote that Abby had no vote in whether 'the girls' kept pets or not. I would think that Andrew may have proclaimed it "his" house and may have forbidden it.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu May 03, 2007 12:33 am

I will get my research team right on that!

Meanwhile, here are some references to horses:

Sourcebook- Morse supposedly speaking-
Page 7

The Fall River Herald, Friday, August 5, 1892
..."Mr. Borden first went into the furniture business on Anawan street, where he remained for 30 years or more. My sister died 28 years ago. At that time Mr. Borden was worth fully $150,000, which amount he had invested largely in mill stocks, which were highly paying securities. He told me on one occasion that he had $78,000 in mill stocks alone. He afterwards invested heavily in a horsecar line, but now I am ahead of my story."
_____

Morse was associated with horses and the horsecars were still in use in 1892.

We've been thru 3 Forums by now, and plenty of articles- has anyone a source for the mistreatment of draft horses?
Wasn't the Humane Society or the Animal Rescue League started to help horses?

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Thu May 03, 2007 11:57 am

Well, one thing they (the Animal Rescue League of Fall River) used to do every year is at Christmas time they would make up these feedbags for horses. It was an annual project. The source on that is annual meeting minutes of the Animal Rescue League of Fall River. It's mentioned in each one, along with what they were given.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu May 03, 2007 12:16 pm

Hi Augusta!
My *research team* found a topic archived with a link I had provided within it- to the Animal Rescue League and saving horses!
Yay!

http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Archi ... /Faxon.htm

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Thu May 03, 2007 12:38 pm

Thanks, Kat & "team"! You so smart.

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Thu May 03, 2007 12:45 pm

The URL doesn't work. I got on the home page of the Rescue League with: http://www.faxonarl.org/

I haven't seen this website before.

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Thu May 03, 2007 12:50 pm

Hanging in the background is the picture of Lizzie and Emma 'together' in the Rescue League lobby. You can walk in and see it; it's right by the door. I hope this photo posts. I tried posting a few photos the other night, and I bombed out. If the photo does not post, you can see it by going to the home page: http://www.faxonarl.org/ and going to the topic on top called "about us", then selecting "history" from the menu.

shakiboo · Post by **shakiboo** » Thu May 03, 2007 5:42 pm

wow that's cool! I don't believe I've ever seen that picture of Lizzie!! And it looks like she's wearing glasses.........thanks!

bobarth · Post by **bobarth** » Fri May 04, 2007 12:57 pm

shakiboo @ Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:06 am wrote: The years from birth to five are so very important, she only had her mother till she was two, and I'm sure some of that time Sarah was ill, so that cut the time even more.

You know those formative years of ages 2-5, baby Lizzie would have been in a house filled with sickness and death. I was wondering if the house would have been in mourning over Sarahs death. I know widows went in mourning, the wearing of black, no social events, no fun etc.
I wonder if Andrew went in mourning and if so for how long? Would the extended family also be in mourning? Perhaps this could explain why she was thought to be cold and odd, she probably could not run and play and laugh like normal children. Perhaps she was put in mourning clothes as a youngster and this formed her frame of reference on how to act.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat May 05, 2007 1:58 am

shakiboo @ Thu May 03, 2007 5:42 pm wrote:wow that's cool! I don't believe I've ever seen that picture of Lizzie!! And it looks like she's wearing glasses.........thanks!

Nope no glasses in that picture. That is from Pearson's Trial of Lizzie Borden, and the photo is claimed to be from 1891, page 50.

Try the website- she is all over that first page in that same picture.

shakiboo · Post by **shakiboo** » Sat May 05, 2007 7:41 am

Kat @ Sat May 05, 2007 6:58 pm wrote:
shakiboo @ Thu May 03, 2007 5:42 pm wrote:wow that's cool! I don't believe I've ever seen that picture of Lizzie!! And it looks like she's wearing glasses.........thanks!
Nope no glasses in that picture. That is from Pearson's Trial of Lizzie Borden, and the photo is claimed to be from 1891, page 50.

Try the website- she is all over that first page in that same picture.

I know!!!

I went to the site right after posting that!!! Maybe I should have glasses!!!

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sun May 06, 2007 11:43 pm

Lizbeth had a horse or horses at Maplecroft- at least until she got a car. I think she might be a girl who loves horses and that might be one reason why she dedicated money to the Rescue League.
A girl who loves horses might be a late bloomer? A tom-boy kind of girl- interested in riding and grooming and caring for the animal? I don't know- is there a *psychology* behind a girl like that?

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