Who did it poll.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Wed May 30, 2007 7:47 pm

Your vote is secret unless you reveal it.

Constantine · Post by **Constantine** » Wed May 30, 2007 8:02 pm

Evidently, I am the first to vote for Lizzie alone. I don't think I will be the last.

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Wed May 30, 2007 8:07 pm

You know Harry every-week I have a new killer. That's the great mystery behind this case. So many scenarios fit, so many characters can be fingered, thus the reason so many books have been written. Suspicions go on. Time will show that the killer will never be discovered. So it begs me to vote, need to go with the UKNOWN OUTSIDER........Though a known outsider would probably fit better

Cheryl · Post by **Cheryl** » Wed May 30, 2007 8:17 pm

Constantine-you are not alone.

Constantine · Post by **Constantine** » Wed May 30, 2007 8:19 pm

Neither are we, I'm sure.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Wed May 30, 2007 9:51 pm

mbhenty @ Wed May 30, 2007 8:07 pm wrote:

You know Harry every-week I have a new killer. That's the great mystery behind this case. So many scenarios fit, so many characters can be fingered, thus the reason so many books have been written. Suspicions go on. Time will show that the killer will never be discovered. So it begs me to vote, need to go with the UKNOWN OUTSIDER........Though a known outsider would probably fit better

I can remove the "unknown" part or add "A known outsider".

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Wed May 30, 2007 9:58 pm

mbhenty @ Wed May 30, 2007 8:07 pm wrote:

You know Harry every-week I have a new killer. That's the great mystery behind this case. So many scenarios fit, so many characters can be fingered, thus the reason so many books have been written. Suspicions go on. Time will show that the killer will never be discovered. So it begs me to vote, need to go with the UKNOWN OUTSIDER........Though a known outsider would probably fit better

I can remove the "unknown" part or add "A known outsider".

EDIT here: No, I can't! Apparently once someone has voted the poll choices can't be edited or added to. That's fair and the way it should be.

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Wed May 30, 2007 10:42 pm

Well Harry, if asked today I would say that Lizzie had something to do with it and most likely hired the killer. So when I said a "known outsider" I meant known to Lizzie but not necessarily to us. So Anthony, Morse, or Harrington could all fit under the description of "Known outsider" I suppose. The way you have it is fine. Great poll by the way!

Mark A. · Post by **Mark A.** » Thu May 31, 2007 7:33 pm

I'm glad that I'm not the only one to think that it was Lizzie with Morse's help.
I find it almost impossible to believe that Lizzie could have been in the house all morning and not have a clue that 2 murders had taken place within feet if not a few yards of her.
As far as Morse goes, someting is strange about him from his unexpected arrival and sleepover, to his convienient absence from the house on the morning before the deed up to his convienient arrival shortly after the deed was done.
I'm not saying that either Andrew or Abby met their demise at the hand of Lizzie herself or John Morse but I'd bet my bottom dollar that they both knew of the plan early that morning if not before.

sguthmann · Post by **sguthmann** » Thu May 31, 2007 11:49 pm

Harry, what about an option that "Lizzie acted with outside help?" I'm not sure I think Lizzie acted with assistance from either Morse or Bridget, but perhaps some other person...?

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 7:53 am

I wish I could amend the options but there doesn't appear a way to change a poll. There are probably multiple combinations that could be added.

It's funny you should mention Lizzie having an outside helper. Was just thinking about that the other day. You run into the problem of how Lizzie would secure this helper. Her contacts with the public were limited and centered around the church, hardly a place you would look to find a double murderer. I don't think Bridget would be much help in finding one for her.

The only possible person I could think of was Uncle Morse. But even he led pretty much of a clean life. Being a horse trader at times, equivalent to a used-car dealer today, hardly qualifies him as consorting with people for hire capable of murder.

Then there's always the problem of Lizzie exposing herself to blackmail if the outsider had no personal connection to her.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 10:53 am

I once tried to post a poll with too many options and it denied me. I had to pare down my options considerably!
I was surprised that you got so many on yours to go thru!
It's a good poll- and it brought ou Mark A.! Hi Mark!

Mark A. · Post by **Mark A.** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 9:56 pm

Hi Kat,
Yes it is a good poll. Harry always thinks up the good ones. Your so right about it being so good that even I posted!!
I'm always checking in to see whats new. I'd rather read then post most times but I am here.
I was almost prompted to post about the great photos that you & Harry took on your most recent trip here. Are you two trying to put me out of bussiness? Those photos were great.
Keep posting them please. I can never get enough.
M

Constantine · Post by **Constantine** » Fri Jun 01, 2007 11:44 pm

Harry, I couldn't agree more with you on your reasons for doubting that Lizzie acted in concert with anyone. I can't imagine her approaching anyone for help in pulling off such a bizarre and stupid plan. It was chiefly through dumb luck that she got away with it.

If she got any help, it was after the fact.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 1:02 am

Oh Mark- your photos in the recent issue of The Hatchet are just Wonderful!.
Thank you so much for submitting them- and being our own "Fall River Lad" - on the spot!

As for my trip photos, I've posted all of the ones I can.

sguthmann · Post by **sguthmann** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 11:57 am

Constantine @ Fri Jun 01, 2007 9:44 pm wrote:Harry, I couldn't agree more with you on your reasons for doubting that Lizzie acted in concert with anyone. I can't imagine her approaching anyone for help in pulling off such a bizarre and stupid plan. It was chiefly through dumb luck that she got away with it.

If she got any help, it was after the fact.

And yet I feel that "someone" else knew this (the deaths of A and A) were going to happen...perhaps Emma? Perhaps the sisters both felt it was justified? I'm not suggesting that Emma was in FR on Aug 4th, but I wouldn't be at all surprised that she had knowledge of what was to happen, at least in general terms - i.e. that Andrew and Abby would be killed - and had conspired with Lizzie to set up some sort of plan.

I can't back up my "gut feeling" on this with anything factual at this point, and you're right about a lot of things seeming to have come together just on "dumb luck," but I feel Lizzie had a sounding board at the outset, a "co-conspirator," if you will. And as you and others rightfully point out, wouldn't any other "someone" have used that information against Lizzie for blackmail, etc? I'd counter, yes perhaps, UNLESS that other person was to benefit monetarily the same as Lizzie from the deaths of Andrew and Abby. If exposing one sister meant that the other would likely be found out as well and they'd both lose the inheritance coming to them, not to mention their freedom, I should think they'd protect each other to the grave - which some may argue Emma did, citing the "last interview" in which she again asserted that she did not believe Lizzie had murdered the couple.

Also keep in mind that as a co-conspirator in this case, one would not necessarily have had to wield the ax or slipped poison into food/drink; any involvement in the plot, including mere knowledge of it, and any such persons could be prosecuted as being part of a conspiracy and accessories to murder. By involving someone else in the plot, Lizzie could actually have had confidence that their shared secret would remain that way - secret.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Jun 02, 2007 1:16 pm

Do those of you who think Lizzie did it actually herself, have any opinion as to what she was doing between the killings? And do you also subscribe to a theory that there was less time between the deaths than the experts agreed upon?
(I mean- does less time- narrowed to say, an hour- help your theory and seem reasonable?)

PS: I haven't voted yet. I'm just asking because I'm interested in the timing.

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 10:35 am

I voted for Lizzie alone. But I still think that she had help from Emma. But I didn't see that choice. I have always believed that Emma had more to do with the murders than she was letting on. She just had the sense to get out of town, and the police didn't check in to her alibi all that well. I mean, they did check with the people that she stayed with, but she could have helped plan the murders or something.

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 10:39 am

I think maybe Bridget might have been an unwitting helper after the fact. You know, she comes in from cleaning the windows, sees Lizzie with the axe, her parents dead. Bridget might have paniced or something and helped clean things up. But, I don't think that she anything to do with the murders.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sun Jun 03, 2007 11:23 pm

There was a true crime story on TV today where there was a significant waiting time between the killings of 2 parents and a daughter. The son proved an alibi. But he had gotten his friend to do the lying-in-wait and the killings - for money. In fact, there were 2 co-conspirators. I thought that was interesting. I can't quite see Lizzie pacing waiting for Andrew to come home and then killing him. But a methodical *hit-man*, even an inexperienced one, might be removed emotionally enough to lie in wait without too much trepidation.

I must say, during our recent stay in the House, 3 people were together upstairs while Har & I were in the parlour and finally I asked whether they had left without our knowing. We couln't hear them.
My impression was that there were quiet spots in the House where sound just did not travel and it seemed to swallow up 3 people! This has happened before in that House that I noticed.

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 8:43 am

Kat @ Sat Jun 02, 2007 1:16 pm wrote:Do those of you who think Lizzie did it actually herself, have any opinion as to what she was doing between the killings?

I think she was probably watching Bridget like a hawk so that she (Bridget) wouldn't go upstairs or pick up on something. That's why she was taking an inordinate amount of time ironing some little handkerchiefs in the dining room where she could keep track of her, and making small talk about the windows, the locks, sales in town, etc.

Constantine · Post by **Constantine** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 5:49 pm

Kat @ Sat Jun 02, 2007 1:16 pm wrote:Do those of you who think Lizzie did it actually herself, have any opinion as to what she was doing between the killings? And do you also subscribe to a theory that there was less time between the deaths than the experts agreed upon?

I think that, after any necessary cleanup and hiding of the murder weapon, she bided her time in various ways. I subscribe to the usual hour-and-a-half-to-two-hours theory, but I don't think the amount of time makes any difficulty in any case.

I don't think Emma and/or John Vinnicum Morse absented him/her/themselves/self to accommodate Lizzie. I think Lizzie just took advantage of their being away from the house. (Morse's visit would actually have been almost a monkey wrench in the machinery, I think.) Lizzie's attempt to buy prussic acid indicates that her plans were pretty flexible.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:36 pm

Does most everyone who thinks LIzzie did the killings think Lizzie did try to buy prussic acid on Wednesday?

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 9:23 pm

Yes, I totally can believe that Lizzie tried to buy poison, perhaps that was her original choice for dispatching the elder Bordens until John Morse showed up. Uncle John seems to be a catalyst for some reason; that they needed to die sooner because of his visit.

What did Lizzie do between the killings? I guess that would depend (in my mind) whether Lizzie knew the lay of the law with inheritance. Did she actually know that Abby had to die first or was it a happy (for Lizzie) accident? I would think besides cleaning herself up and changing dresses, Lizzie had alot of time to think. Time to think, and panic, perhaps bemoan what she did. Time to calm herself and try to think what to do next, plot things out for when her father got home. I can't really see Lizzie idly waiting for Andrew's arrival, just twiddling her thumbs.

Constantine · Post by **Constantine** » Mon Jun 04, 2007 9:27 pm

Susan @ Mon Jun 04, 2007 9:23 pm wrote:I would think besides cleaning herself up and changing dresses, Lizzie had alot of time to think. Time to think, and panic, perhaps bemoan what she did. Time to calm herself and try to think what to do next, plot things out for when her father got home. I can't really see Lizzie idly waiting for Andrew's arrival, just twiddling her thumbs.

Well put, Susan. I didn't mean to suggest she just twiddled her thumbs.

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Tue Jun 05, 2007 4:01 am

Thank you, Constantine. I'm sorry, my post wasn't made picking at your post, I hope you didn't take it that way. This was just part of my thought process; Lizzie calmly waiting for Andrew, basting that loop on her dress, and just sitting until it was time, I can't see it.

Even if Lizzie had planned the whole thing out beforehand, the aftermath of the first murder must have left her breathless. From the exertion, possibly the exhileration, "I did it, I really did it!" to final realization that now that her plan was in action, she couldn't stop now. Nor, could she undo the mess she had already created. It must have been an intense wait for Andrew's arrival!

Cheryl · Post by **Cheryl** » Tue Jun 05, 2007 9:08 am

I agree, Susan- I think she spent a great deal of time watching Bridget and hoping she'd leave. I picture her pacing at times, nervous, watching.

I still get this gut feeling that she would have hightailed it out of there if her father hadn't come home. Daddy seemed to be a necessity-kill --
besides, I don't believe Lizzie could bear to have her father point the finger at her.

Also, I don't get the impression that Lizzie was obsessed with getting her inheritance RIGHT AWAY, but I do know that she didn't want Abby to get it, or anyone else in her family. How sad. I can't find any research that points to the fact that Abby was abusive to Lizzie. So all of this "Mrs. Borden" stuff comes from the love of money? I personally find it difficult to sympathize with a person like Lizzie. If anybody had a miserable life it was Abby Borden.

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Tue Jun 05, 2007 9:39 am

I don't think Abby was abusive to Lizzie. I just think Lizzie looked upon Abby with distaste. If she was caught up in wanting to fit in socially with the upper classes she was probably ashamed of Abby , whom she looked upon as a stupid, stump of a woman that she was forced to acknowledge as part of her family. And, if this was the case, the fact that her father might have been considering leaving part of his estate to this woman might have been a real insult to her sensibilities.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Tue Jun 05, 2007 11:17 am

Cheryl @ Tue Jun 05, 2007 8:08 am wrote: So all of this "Mrs. Borden" stuff comes from the love of money? I personally find it difficult to sympathize with a person like Lizzie. If anybody had a miserable life it was Abby Borden.

On this point I totally agree. I think Abby lead a miserable life inside that home with those two girls. She may have gotten out from time to time to visit and maybe do a little charity work. But the majority of her time was spent in a home with two step children who not only did not like her, but went out of their way to make sure that their feelings about her were known.

Constantine · Post by **Constantine** » Tue Jun 05, 2007 6:23 pm

Absolutely no reason to apologize, Susan. Your posts certainly filled in the "various ways" I didn't specify (not that I think that was your intent).

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Sat Jun 09, 2007 11:12 am

I believe Lizzie acted independently in murdering Andrew and Abby. The absence of Emma and John Morse's presence allowed Lizzie to simultaneously hold Emma from suspicion as the perpetrator and very likely focus John Morse as the culprit. She must have known the immediate suspicion would fall on a man rather than a woman. Morse's seemingly spur-of-the-moment visit tends to lend credibility to this. It also provides a reason for a switch from a lady-like poisoning to a more masculine hatchet murder. She didn't realize that Morse would have an air tight alibi.

Michael · Post by **Michael** » Sun Jun 10, 2007 8:50 pm

Yooper, interesting post. I never thought of the possibility that Lizzie may have wanted Morse to be blamed, but it is a possibility.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Sun Jun 10, 2007 10:19 pm

WOW, Yooper, you may have something here. I also believe Lizzie acted alone in both murders. It appears that Lizzie avoided her Uncle, both Wednesday evening and Thursday morning. Also, it is my understanding that Lizzie did not have contact with Uncle John after the murders; Emma did, but Lizzie didn't. What do you feel would have been Lizzie reason(s) for wanting the suspicion to fall on John Morse? Do you feel she disliked her Uncle so much that she went to the lengths she did to set him up? What are your thoughts on the relationship between Uncle John and Lizzie?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sun Jun 10, 2007 10:22 pm

Uncle Morse brought Lizzie her bucket of food at the jail. I think whether she saw him or not depended upon the sheriff's rules at the jail. I'm sure she saw him at times.
Uncle John stayed with Emma until about Dec. 5 and then went back to Iowa until trial- he was admitted to bail to leave town.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Sun Jun 10, 2007 10:33 pm

Thanks, Kat. Dang, I knew that Uncle John brought Lizzie food while she was in jail. I should have said that it is my understanding that Lizzie did not have contact with Uncle John after she was acquitted.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sun Jun 10, 2007 10:39 pm

She verbally pointed her finger at one person, Uncle Hiram Harrington.
Now he is someone we don't know whether Lizzie had anything to do with after the murders and after her acquittal.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Sun Jun 10, 2007 11:11 pm

twinsrwe @ Sun Jun 10, 2007 9:19 pm wrote:WOW, Yooper, you may have something here. I also believe Lizzie acted alone in both murders. It appears that Lizzie avoided her Uncle, both Wednesday evening and Thursday morning. Also, it is my understanding that Lizzie did not have contact with Uncle John after the murders; Emma did, but Lizzie didn't. What do you feel would have been Lizzie reason(s) for wanting the suspicion to fall on John Morse? Do you feel she disliked her Uncle so much that she went to the lengths she did to set him up? What are your thoughts on the relationship between Uncle John and Lizzie?

I'm not sure that Lizzie needed to dislike Uncle John, it may have been a relationship of profound indifference from Lizzie's perspective. Her behavior on Wednesday after his arrival and Thursday morning seem to bear this out, she almost pointedly avoided him. Emma seemed to be the one to carry on correspondence with Uncle John over the years. I don't think the murders were planned in order to frame Uncle John, only that he was in the wrong place at the wrong time and Lizzie may have tried to take advantage of that.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sun Jun 10, 2007 11:31 pm

I'm trying to figure out the logic of Lizzie naming Hiram, yet somehow implying blame onto John Morse. Why wouldn't she just name Morse if she was going to name someone.
(I don't mean you Yooper are saying this- I'm just following the logic toward a conclusion.)

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 8:00 am

The focus was originally on John Morse as the murderer and he provided an air tight alibi early on. Lizzie didn't need to name him to raise those suspicions. After he provided the alibi it would have been futile to name him, in fact it may have made her look guilty to do so. Lizzie later named Hiram, but after he had implied that she was the guilty party, so this may have been retaliation.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Mon Jun 11, 2007 9:17 am

Thanks, Yooper, that makes a lot of sense; it seems reasonable as well as a good possibility.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sun Jun 17, 2007 1:47 am

I think the context of Lizzie's naming Hiram was more along the order of being asked specifically:

Q. You can't give us any other idea about it?
50 (7)
A. Nothing but what I have told you.
Q. Beside that do you know of anybody that your father had bad feelings toward, or who had bad feelings toward your father?
A. I know of one man that has not been friendly with him; they have not been friendly for years.
Q. Who?
A. Mr. Hiram C. Harrington.
Q. What relation is he to him?
A. He is my father's brother-in-law.
Q. Your mother's brother?
A. My father's only sister married Mr. Harrington.
Q. Anybody else that was on bad terms with your father, or that your father was on bad terms with?
A. Not that I know of.
Q. You have no reason to suppose that man you speak of a week or two ago, had ever seen your father before, or has since?
A. No sir.
Q. Do you know of anybody that was on bad terms with your stepmother?
A. No sir.
Q. Or that your stepmother was on bad terms with?
A. No sir.

--By this time it was almost common knowledge amongst the newspaper reading public about the long-time stress between Hiram and Andrew.

I've collected the dinner pail picture from the FRHS site in which dear Uncle Morse would bring Lizzie's dinner.
For anyone who doubts they were even amicable, we might collect news stories of all his vists to the jail.
It turns out Morse was pretty popular- at least liked by most of those who stood around yakking with him. He was well-liked in his adopted town of Hastings as well, according to news snippets. I don't think Lizzie was ever as well-liked as Morse was.

http://www.lizzieborden.org/bordenartifacts.htm

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Sun Jun 17, 2007 5:37 pm

I think I feel kind of sorry for Abby. She had to have had a miserable life in that house. emma and Lizzie didn't like her, and her husband, Andrew was a tight wad, and probably married her only so his daughters could have a female figure in the house. I don't think he really loved her. She had to have been miserable.

shakiboo · Post by **shakiboo** » Sun Jun 17, 2007 8:24 pm

I think Andrew and Abby were happy with each other, and I think he was very fond of her. I believe it was the realization of that fondness that probably caused the two girls to change their opinions about her. It was his fondness for her that led him to want to help out her family, and made the girls demand the same, I think that's when they realised that Abby would be taken care of when Andrew passed on, and she would get a good portion of what they assumed was theirs, if not all of it.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Sun Jun 17, 2007 9:55 pm

I think Andrew and Abby were very happy and content with each other. Granted their union did not produce children, however, that does not mean they did not have an intimate and loving relationship.

It is my understanding that Emma was the one who disliked/hated Abby right from the beginning - Lizzie was younger and appeared to have accepted Abby until Andrew openly help out Abby's family. I have to ask, why? I think that once Andrew openly displayed this kindness toward Abby's family, Emma reacted by strongly disagreeing with her father's decision; it appears to me, that Emma had a great deal of influence over Lizzie, and I believe she convinced Lizzie that when Andrew died, they would either end up with very little or nothing at all; certainly not what they deserved.

I, also, think Abby may have been quite miserable having to tolerate two women who were, in my opinion, spoiled rotten. I. also, think Andrew lived a much more miserable life than Abby - after all he had to live in a house where his daughters and wife were die-hard enemies.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Sun Jun 17, 2007 10:18 pm

It was Lizzie by a landslide. At least according to the results of the poll.

17 of the 33, more than half, thought she did it by herself. And 26 of the 33 who voted think she was at least involved. That's almost 80%.

I deliberately put in the words "your current opinion", as opinions can and do change in this remarkable mystery.

Thanks to all who voted.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Sun Jun 17, 2007 11:59 pm

You're welcome, Harry, and thank you for doing this poll!

Lizzie Borden Society Forum

Who did it poll.

Which of the following most closely reflects your current opinion

Who did it poll.