The Cellar Visit

[Kat]

I had revived a topic called "What About The Blood?" (by Michael) from late May, recently, to add a comment.

viewtopic.php?t=2586

I don't know if anyone noticed so I am re-posting my comment here. I think it needs some opinions.

Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 11:00 pm Post subject:

I've been thinking more about this, and a possible theory which we haven't touched upon yet might be that once Alice went down cellar with Lizzie, and they returned upstairs- and Lizzie went down again on her own- it might not be that Alice thwarted any plan Lizzie had in the cellar and so she felt the need to return alone as she had planned to go in the beginning- but rather it's possible that Lizzie saw something down cellar on that first trip that caused her to decide to return on her own to check it more thoroughly.

--Kat

I would like to know what you'all think of this theory and what might she have seen, and done about what she saw, thru speculation.

[Yooper]

Assuming the second trip was related in some way to the first trip, Lizzie may have noticed something on the first trip which she immediately knew she couldn't deal with in Alice's presence, or Lizzie noticed something and later decided to deal with it, regardless of Alice's presence. The time between trips would possibly have some bearing. The less time between trips, the more likely it was something she immediately recognized as demanding secrecy.

[Kat]

Something she felt she had to check out or deal with right away, before any more time had passed?

Here is a much-needed visual.
I had made up a scheme of the cellar from The Knowlton Papers, 133, and numbered pertinent points for my article in the Hatchet magazine, Vol. 1, Issue 6. page 25.

Here is a piece of that. It shows the area where one comes down the stairs from inside the house into the cellar, the Keep Cellar room behind the stairs and the Laundry room area to the right of the outer cellar bulkhead.

#1 = Bench 2'8" high by 2'5"wide
#3 = Hot water pan
#6 = Bricking of the floor by the laundry sink
#7 = Window with no bars
#8 = Window with bars
#11= approx. where clawhead hatchet was stored by Fleet
#16= Vinegar barrels under stairs
#22= Pail of bloody cloths
#23= Pile of bloody clothing etc from crime scenes
#24= Lizzie put lamp on stand here Thursday night while alone
#25= Alice Russell stood there and held lamp, first cellar visit
#26= Lizzie stooped here alone Thursday night
#27= Hyde at window Thursday night

[BaAz5]

Hi Kat, do you think Lizzie was aware that there was a policeman outside that night and could see want she was doing in the basement?

[Yooper]

I would assume an immediate need for Lizzie to deal with something because apparently it couldn't wait until the next day. The cloth pail seems fairly close to the sink where Lizzie was seen stooping. If a hatchet head had been hidden among the bloody cloths, it might be necessary to check if it had been discovered and removed. It might be an opportune time to hide it elsewhere. The murder weapon did not need to be disposed of immediately, it only needed to be kept a step ahead of the search and disposed of at a better time.

[Nadzieja]

I keep thinking that maybe if Lizzie did hide something she went back downstairs to make sure that it was well disguised. Something made her go alone and maybe she was shook up enough that she had to doublecheck whatever it was. What actually did happen to the pile of bloody clothes. Were they destroyed eventually? Who would be responsible for this?

[Kat]

I'm pretty sure Lizzie knew there was a guard outside. There were several men on duty. I don't know if her need overrode any caution.

I was thinking today tho- that there is something missing from the scheme drawing I devised. It's a big thing. Something I think I left out. Anyone guess or know? There Thursday but gone Friday is a hint.

[diana]

I'm pretty sure this isn't what you mean, Kat -- but it got me thinking about pails and such. Bridget keeps talking about how she had to go down to the cellar to get a wooden pail for the window washing ... but I can't find anything that says she put it back in the cellar.

"Q. When you had completed this rinsing of the windows, if I may call it that, what did you do?
A. I went into the kitchen. I put the handle of the brush away in the barn and brought the pail and dipper in and put the dipper behind [?] and I got the hand basin and went into the sitting room to wash the sitting room windows.
Q. Did you go to the barn to put away the handle of the brush before you went in, or after?
A. Before I went in." (Trial, 232+)

So she's accounted for the handle of the brush and the dipper (sort of -- because it's not clear what it's behind) -- but not the pail.

At trial she testifies that when she was finished the inside windows, she rinsed out her cloths in the kitchen and then went up to her room.

I wonder what happened to that wooden pail?

[Angel]

I just have a hard time thinking Lizzie could have been that naive or stupid to do something that suspicious in the middle of the night (or burn a dress in broad daylight in sight of everyone) without realizing it might look suspicious. I think Kat is right- that her need to cover up something was an overriding matter that she felt compelled to do dispite the risks involved.

[diana]

"Witness Statements, 35, Edson:
"Fall River Mass. Friday Aug. 5, 1892.
At 5.55 A. M. went from the Police Station to the residence of the late A. J. Borden, No 92 Second street. Arrived there about 6 A. M. entered house by the side door on North side of the house. Officer Harrington was on duty at the door. The door from the entry to kitchen was open. J. V. Morse was in front of the stove; we did not speak. I went down cellar from the entry, went into the wash room in the southmost corner of the cellar. On the floor were two axes and a single hatchet. On a bench or table were a number of wet towels. There was blood on the towels. I went up stairs with the axes and hatchet, met Harrington at the door. Harrington said “there was one more hatchet in the cellar.” I went down cellar again, Harrington with me. In the vegetable cellar, off wash room, Harrington handed me a hatchet from a shelf or scaffold. We then went up stairs, and out of the house. On the steps I saw John V. Morse coming from the back yard. I said “good morning”; he answered. I went from there directly to the Police Station; arriving there about 6.23 A. M."

What is the 'wash room' where the two axes and single hatchet lay on the floor. Is that the laundry/sink area? And where did the number of bloody wet towels come from? Were those used during the autopsy, maybe?

Presumably those axes and bloody towels were lying out there when Alice and Lizzie were downstairs because Edson was there before 6 a.m. Friday morning. Did Lizzie have to step over the axes on her way to the sink?

[Kat]

Bingo!~ It's the hatchet and axes! You are so smart!
They were right there in the laundry room on the floor.

As for the *wet towels*, I'm pretty sure he's referring to the pail of Lizzie's menstrual cloths. He just left out the bit about them being in a pail.

But they weren't on a bench earlier Thursday night. Maybe Lizzie went down one more time, without a light?
It reminds me a bit of OCD. This might be why she went down that second time alone.
Sometimes, when my hormones are out of sync, I get a little O-C, but mostly about whether I locked the front dor. I might feel compelled to check it several times. Nothing else- just the front door locks.

[Yooper]

If Lizzie went to the basement the second time without a light, perhaps it was for a task which could be accomplished primarily by touch rather than by sight. I hardly think that moving a pail of cloths from the floor to a bench would require a second trip downstairs, assuming they were on the floor to begin with.

[SallyG]

Perhaps I have missed something, but was Lizzie ever ASKED about her trip to the basement that night? If so, what was her explanation? If not, I wonder why that would not have been brought up?

[diana]

I don't know if I'm right about this, but my feeling has always been that the visit to the cellar might simply have been a normal pre-bedtime occurence and not have held any sinister purpose. After all, that's where the privy was located.

Lizzie is asked about going downstairs on Thursday night at the inquest but the questions are in a context that could be confusing because they're bracketed by Knowlton specifically trying to determine if Lizzie went into the sitting room on Thursday night.

"Q. Did you afterwards go into the room where your father was found killed, any more than to go through it to go up stairs?
A. When they took me up stairs they took me through that room.
Q. Otherwise than that did you go into it?
A. No, sir.
Q. Let me refresh your memory. You came down in the night to get some water with Miss Russell, along towards night, or in the evening, to get some water with Miss Russell?
A. Thursday night? I don't remember it.
Q. Don't you remember coming down sometime to get some toilet water?
A. No, sir, there was no toilet water down stairs. [Note: previously Knowlton has been referring to the basement area as 'down cellar' which may cause Lizzie to think he was asking if she'd just come down to the main floor. Also he seems focused on whether she went into the sitting room Thursday night.]
Q. Or to empty the slops?
A. I don't know whether I did Thursday evening or not. I am not sure.
Q. You think it may have been some other evening?
A. I don't remember coming down with her to do such a thing. I may have, I can't tell whether it was Thursday evening or any other evening. [This response contributes to my thinking that she often emptied her bathing water etc. out at the end of the day and can not be sure about Thursday night as Alice was there more than one night.]
Q. Other than that, if that did take place, you don't recollect going into that room for any purpose at any time? [And we're back to the sitting room.]
A. No, sir."

[Kat]

The second visit by Lizzie to the cellar was with a light.
And the *stand* was where she put that light that night when she was alone. At the time Hyde was pretty sure the pail was on the floor where I showed it to be- but maybe it wasn't there anymore after all?
Maybe it was on that stand (by the cauldron, on the west side of the room) and when she put the light down is when she did something. Maybe we are misdirected by Hyde as to his answers about Lizzie stooping in front of the laundry sink on the east side of the room.

I think Mrs. Holmes was asked about the wash water too?

Thanks for the testimony, Diana!

[diana]

Maybe it's just because it's late at night but I'm not getting much from Mrs. Holmes testimony about the water.

"Q. What time did you go away that night?
A. About half past eight.
Q. Was there any use of the toilet things that afternoon, Mrs. Holmes?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Any reason why the slop-pail should be filled?
A. I should think so, if I was to stay there all night.
Q. No, I mean in the afternoon, by reason of use in the afternoon?
A. Yes, that is what I say.
Q. For washing and various other purposes. What do you mean by "if you stayed all night you should"?
A. Why, I should think---

MR. KNOWLTON. It is perfectly obvious what she means. You need not ask the details on our account.

MR. ROBINSON. Better have it on the jury's account.

MR. KNOWLTON. Well, the jury can understand it." (Trial, 1503+)

Maybe the jury could -- but I'm still in the dark....

[shakiboo]

I think what she is trying to say is, they had been used in the afternoon and would have to be taken care of.....emptied/refilled for the night use. And had she been going to stay the night she would have done so.

[Allen]

I think what she is trying to say is, they had been used in the afternoon and would have to be taken care of.....emptied/refilled for the night use. And had she been going to stay the night she would have done so.

This would've been my suggestion also. Perhaps she was trying to insinuate without actually having to say it that the slop pail may have been used to dispose of things other than just bath water during the night.

[Susan]

I did not know that there were bricks on the floor around the sink area of the wash room. Its always cool to get a new little tidbit of information like that, thanks, Kat. If Lizzie "stooped opposite the sink", perhaps it wasn't under the sink that she did something, but instead, under a couple of loose bricks? Checking to see that a bloodied hatchet was still there or secreting one there that had been steeping in her slop pail since late morning?

[Nadzieja]

Ok, now my imagination is really going. Is it possible she did hide something under the bricks? Are they still there, I've never seen photo's of the cellar. Are there any published anywhere?

[Kat]

There are cellar pictures all over this Forum- can't say exactly where, tho!

It's been brought to my attention that the *towels* mentioned by Edson in the Witness Statements,might not be the menstrual cloths.
I looked up what Dr. Dolan had to say about them, because I recalled he had eximined them "casually" while they were in the Marshal's office. However, he does not say they were in a pail at the time. Here is the context- from the Prelim- but I'm still not quite convinced they are not Lizzie's monthly towels, as we don't know the time frame of when he looked them over in the office.

Dr. Dolan
Prelim
Q. Do you remember a pail in the cellar?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. And were there some clothes or napkins in that pail?
A. Yes Sir, three.
Q. Did you examine them?
A. I examined them casually.
Q. Did you take them?
A. No Sir.
Q. Were they taken by anybody?
A. By the officer, officer Mullaly I think I told to take them.
Q. What was subsequently done with them, if you know?
A. Nothing; they were left down stairs in the marshal’s office, and nothing further done with them.
Q. Did you examine them?
A. Yes Sir.
Page 189
Q. Did you become satisfied that they had no connection with this case?
A. Yes Sir.
(Mr. Knowlton.) We claim nothing at present.

[Here is more about the victims' clothes, continued with no break]:
Q. There was of course clothing which was found on the bodies of both Mr. and Mrs. Borden, that clothing has not been talked about at all; but I believe it was at one time put in the earth back of the barn?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. That is to say, the clothing was buried without any envelope or box that first time?
A. I was not there, but I understand that to be so.
Q. Then it was taken up, and examines and buried again?
A. Yes Sir, put into a box.
Q. When it was buried again, it was put into a wooden box?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. It was taken up two or three times?
A. Twice I think.
Q. What has become of that clothing?
A. It is down stairs.
Q. In the marshal’s office?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Is all the clothing that was found on the bodies of each there?
A. Yes Sir.

--So at that point it *all* is in the Marshal's office- victims clothes and these 3 towels.

[diana]

There are cellar pictures all over this Forum- can't say exactly where, tho!

It's been brought to my attention that the *towels* mentioned by Edson in the Witness Statements,might not be the menstrual cloths.
I looked up what Dr. Dolan had to say about them, because I recalled he had eximined them "casually" while they were in the Marshal's office. However, he does not say they were in a pail at the time. Here is the context- from the Prelim- but I'm still not quite convinced they are not Lizzie's monthly towels, as we don't know the time frame of when he looked them over in the office.

Dr. Dolan
Prelim
Q. Do you remember a pail in the cellar?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. And were there some clothes or napkins in that pail?
A. Yes Sir, three.
Q. Did you examine them?
A. I examined them casually.
Q. Did you take them?
A. No Sir.
Q. Were they taken by anybody?
A. By the officer, officer Mullaly I think I told to take them.
Q. What was subsequently done with them, if you know?
A. Nothing; they were left down stairs in the marshal’s office, and nothing further done with them.
Q. Did you examine them?
A. Yes Sir.
Page 189
Q. Did you become satisfied that they had no connection with this case?
A. Yes Sir.
(Mr. Knowlton.) We claim nothing at present.

[Here is more about the victims' clothes, continued with no break]:
Q. There was of course clothing which was found on the bodies of both Mr. and Mrs. Borden, that clothing has not been talked about at all; but I believe it was at one time put in the earth back of the barn?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. That is to say, the clothing was buried without any envelope or box that first time?
A. I was not there, but I understand that to be so.
Q. Then it was taken up, and examines and buried again?
A. Yes Sir, put into a box.
Q. When it was buried again, it was put into a wooden box?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. It was taken up two or three times?
A. Twice I think.
Q. What has become of that clothing?
A. It is down stairs.
Q. In the marshal’s office?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Is all the clothing that was found on the bodies of each there?
A. Yes Sir.

--So at that point it *all* is in the Marshal's office- victims clothes and these 3 towels.

I'm reading part of this differently I think, Kat. You say "we don't know the time frame of when he looked them over in the office." But what I'm taking from Dolan's testimony is that he saw the ''clothes and napkins" in the cellar and examined them there. Then he asked Mullaly to take them away and they were taken to the Marshal's office.

Consequently, I'm wondering about the burial the next day of three towels and a napkin. The inclusion of the napkin makes it sound as though these might be Lizzie's menstrual cloths but did someone bring them back to the house from the Marshal's office to bury them?

I was wondering if the wet towels Edson saw on the bench early Friday morning might be towels used during the autopsies. Both Dolan and Dedrick washed their hands after their examination of Abby's body in the guest room and Dedrick says the water in that washstand had blood in it. Presumably bloody towels also came into play during the autopsies that afternoon as the participants cleaned up afterwards and I'd thought these may have been taken down to the cellar, dropped on the bench, and left to be laundered.

[Kat]

Yes I see. Dr. Dolan could very well have examined them in the cellar, and not in the office. I wonder why he was asked twice?

Well, no mater where he examined them, they ended up in the office as well as the clothing of the victims. By this time they seem almost hopelessly intertwined with the other, personal *family* evidence- the clothes of the victims.
I'm not sure why they would hold the personal clothing and then towels used to dry the hands of the doctors, rather than bloody napkins/towels/cloths that were thought to be family-related items of something worn by Lizzie.

We should check statements made by Mullaly about picking up the items and also check to find out when Dolan was seeing these things in a pail in the cellar.

It's possible all the stuff that had been buried was in that office- lounge cover, carpet piece, etc.

[diana]

It's all surmising at this point, isn't it? But I guess I'm still thinking it's possible that the 3 towels and a napkin that were buried could have been Lizzie's cloths. And that the "number of wet towels" Edson saw on the bench could be the autopsy towels and been laundered later?

Here's something else that relates to the towels.

In the Witness Statements Medley reports:
"I inquired about some cloths which looked, to me like small towels, they were covered with blood, and in a pail half filled with water, and in the wash cellar. She [Lizzie] said that was all right; she had told the Doctor all about that. I then asked her how long the pail and its contents had been
there; and she said three or four days. I asked the Doctor about it, and he said it had been explained to him, and was all right."

Therefore as Medley was at the house just after 11:30 on Thursday and from his report it would appear he discovered the towels shortly after his arrival -- it looks like Lizzie may have immediately realized the conclusions that could be drawn from a pail half full of bloody cloths and explained their presence to Bowen? Dolan? and that Dolan examined them (or at least knew about them) fairly soon after his arrival.

Medley goes on to say: "I then had a talk with Bridget about the pail and its contents. She said she had not noticed the pail until that day, and it could not have been there two days before, or she would have seen it, and put the contents in the wash, as that was the day she had done the washing." (Witness Stmts.) [Presumably she saw it 'that day' when she went down to the cellar either for the kindling or for the window-washing implements.]

Note here that Bridget is saying she would have seen the cloths there if they'd been there two days before because she did the wash on Tuesday. But here's what she says at trial.
"Q. What day had you done your washing that week?
A. Monday.
Q. What day had you done the drying of your clothes?
A. Monday, if it was pleasant.
Q. I mean this particular week.
A. Monday was the regular washing day.
Q. Did you wash on Monday, the week of Mr. Borden's death?
A. Yes, sir."

So if she did wash the clothes on Monday and Lizzie's 'sickness' as they termed it was deemed to have ended Wednesday night -- the pail could have been there 3 days and contain 3 towels and a napkin, right?

Are there any men left in the room?

[Kat]

Thank you for all the info you provided!
I'm following your reasoning- the only thing I find a mite confusing is:

"Note here that Bridget is saying she would have seen the cloths there if they'd been there two days before because she did the wash on Tuesday."

--Diana
I guess you mean it implies Bridget did the wash on Tuesday because she specifies 2 days ago from the Thursday- whereas you know that Bridget mostly does the laundry on Mondays, yes?

I was just getting to Mullaly in the Prelim before our great trip North, and have not had time to pick it up again!

If we knew when Medley saw the towels and asked Lizzie about them or when Lizzie told Dr. Bowen,* we'd find out if she was asked first by the officer, then told Bowen so Bowen could explain it was OK and he knew about it- rather than Lizzie realizing they were down there on her own, and explaining first to Dr. Bowen before anyone asked her about it.
I think it would be fascinating to find out what order this took place. It might show what Lizzie was thinking of and what she might have been obsessing about before she was asked certain questions. Or whether she was prostrated and only thought about how these things would look after they were discovered and she was reminded- if that makes any sense?

*I'm sticking to Bowen on this (rather than Dolan as doctor), mostly because he was considered her physician and also he was sequestered in her room with her for a time.

[diana]

I'm following your reasoning- the only thing I find confusing is:

"Note here that Bridget is saying she would have seen the cloths there if they'd been there two days before because she did the wash on Tuesday."

--Diana
I guess you mean it implies Bridget did the wash on Tuesday because she specifies 2 days ago from the Thursday- whereas you know that Bridget mostly does the laundry on Mondays.

I didn't word that very well. Yes, I did mean Bridget implies she did the washing on Tuesday because she specifies 2 days ago from the Thursday whereas at trial she says Monday was the regular wash day but she also maintains the washing was done on Monday of that week.

And I agree with you that it was most likely Bowen who was told about what was in the pail. To me, it sounds as if Medley saw the towels very soon after he arrived at the house and Lizzie had already told the doctor because when Medley asks him, he seems to know about it.

But who knows how all that went down ....

[Kat]

I'm breaking my own rule and I apologize.
I think anyone discussing something that we hope will enlighten us, hopefully will read all pertinent info for context- rather than relying on one person to provide testimony and remarking upon that.
I have not had the extra time I would like to delve deeper into a time-line type of discussion. Sorry!
I find this fascinating.