Wound Interpretations?

[Allen]

One of the most fascinating aspects of this case, in my opinion, is the manner in which the wounds inflicted on the Borden's are interpreted. Everyone who reads the autopsy report, or views the crime scene photographs, draws their own specific set of conclusions about the way the attacks were perpetrated. The sequence of events can be summed up by the sequence and direction of the wounds and so forth. For example, why were their no defensive wounds on Abby? Did she know her killer? Could the directionality of Andrew's wound's tell us where the killer stood? What about the contusions on Abby's face? It's been a subject of conversation many many times before here on the forum, and may even have been discussed to death for some of you. But I'd like to focus a topic on what conclusions you all draw when you view this evidence. So my question is what does this evidence imply to you?

[shakiboo]

Oh, this could be very interesting......I think with Andrew's wounds, for me it was pretty easy to see that he was laying down pretty much the way they found him. The wounds run up and down as opposed to side to side on his face. If Lizzie did it, I think that would be the easiest way for her to kill her father, from behind, at the arm of the couch, that way she wouldn't have to see his face. And he wouldn't see her's. Why was he hit so many times? I wonder if after the first 2 or 3 if it would have been possible for his nerves to twitch or jump and maybe she thought he was still alive and hit some more, that fear of him not dying driving her on to several more (?) I think Abby was taken totally by surprise, I think whom ever did it came in the room fast and swung the first blow before she could even cry out or raise her hands in defence, that would be the flap wound, and down she went, the next I think was the one on her upper back by her neck, swung in a hurry with little or no aim because Abby was still moving, and once again fear fueled the swing. She couldn't be allowed to get up or cry out. The ones after that were all pretty much to her head, where having kept Abby down, and quiet, whom ever did it. had everyintention of Abby never getting up again ever. All were driven by fear,anger and hate.

[1bigsteve]

I have alway's leaned toward the killer standing above Abby, one foot on each side of her, and swinging the weapon down on her from above. That would be after the killer struck her in the face. The contusion may have been made by the flat side of the weapon and the wound in her back the result of a miss, maybe as Abby was going down, or of arm fatigue.

I can't see clearly which way Andrew's wounds run but the slice thruogh the eye indicates to me that the killer was probably standing in front of or facing Andrew. But I feel that eye wound could have been the first blow when/if he was sitting upright.

Those are the vibes I get from what I've read and seen so far.

-1bigsteve (o:

[snokkums]

I don't think that Abby knew her killer. Looking at the autopsy pictures look to me like she was killed from behind. Wasn't she lying face down? I don't recall seeing any side face wounds.

I think Andrew was killed from behind too, just from looking at his pictures too. It's just the angle of all his wounds too that make it look like that.

[theebmonique]

Snok...this link is to Abby's autopsy report which describes her wounds, facial and otherwise:

http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Crime ... Borden.htm





Tracy...

[Angel]

Tracey! Where have you been??? We missed you.

[Allen]

I think Abby knew her killer, which is why she may not have been alarmed when this person approached her. I agree that the flap wound was probably the first one to be inflicted. The killer's first swing may have been ill aimed for whatever reason. Then Abby may have turned to make an attempt at getting away and the back wound came next, knocking her to the floor. What I have never been able understand is why there was not more of a struggle. Why she doesn't appear to have cried out in pain or fear. Because although both of these wounds are horrific, neither one would've rendered her unconcious. Why did she not scream after the flap wound? Even if she fell on her face causing the contusions which appeared at autopsy, would this have rendered her unconcious? In my opinion it wouldn't have. But after Abby was on the floor, I agree with the scenario that the killer stood astride her body to deliver the rest of the blows.

As for Andrew, I have leaned towards the idea that he may have been sitting up when the first blow was struck. The blow had sufficient force to drive him sideways, maybe it was the one which severed his eye in two. I based this opinion on his position on the couch. It has never struck me as a pose that suggests someone taking a nap. Then the killer crossed behind him to the door way of the diningroom, maybe to minimize blood splatter, and finished the job.

[Angel]

I think Abby didn't cry out because she may have been stunned by the blow or in too much pain.

[Kat]

I think Abbie did cry out. I agree that she was not immediately unconscious. If there was a slight struggle over the weapon at first, maybe causing the contusions to her face there may not have been a scream- maybe more of grunting from the two from exertion.

I've been wondering why we never picture the killer with one foot on Abbie's back? It's like she can be hacked to death but not stood upon or kneeled upon or sat upon? Why not?

[dasdeeboot]

in both victims... you can notice in the wounds that the blows came from diffrent directions and angles... take a close look ;)

[Angel]

If there was a slight struggle over the weapon at first, maybe causing the contusions to her face there may not have been a scream- maybe more of grunting from the two from exertion.

Don't you think, though, that, if there had been a struggle, Abby would have been trying to protect herself and she would have had cuts or bruises on her arms?

[Allen]

I've been wondering why we never picture the killer with one foot on Abbie's back? It's like she can be hacked to death but not stood upon or kneeled upon or sat upon? Why not?

Excellent point, Kat. If the killer sat on Abby's back to administer the fatal blows, this might be an explaination for why the blood spatter seemed to have been contained within the area of the body. The killer would've been down close to the floor, with their eyes being maybe just a few inches above bed level. This could also explain the lack of a struggle.

Angel @ Wed Jul 11, 2007 8:07 am wrote:

Don't you think, though, that, if there had been a struggle, Abby would have been trying to protect herself and she would have had cuts or bruises on her arms?

I've thought over the idea Kat proposed of a possible struggle over the weapon. This does make sense to me. I can imagine Abby maybe fighting more to disarm the attacker, grabbing the weapon, than actually fighting with the attacker. After the flap wound, her first instinct might have been to try and grab the weapon to stop the person from hitting her again. Especially if she was boxed in between the bed and the bureau with nowhere to run. Then I can picture the killer maybe pulling the weapon from her grip and hitting her in the face with the handle to try and keep her from trying that again. Then maybe Abby spun away to try to ward off anymore blows to the head and the back wound came next. She fell to the floor, and the attacker could well have sat on her to keep her from struggling anymore. All this would had to have happened very quickly, in my opinion.

[Smudgeman]

I initially thought Abby should have some defense wounds on her hands and arms if there was a struggle, but I think she was caught by surprise , from the back. She wasn't feeling well , she was overweight and 64, so the initial blow could have rendered her helpless. Both Bordens were elderly, so you have to take that into account.

[Kat]

I was keeping in mind the fact- the strange, unavoidable fact- that the wound to Abbie's neck/shoulder was not found until the 11th.
I figure if that is so- then there might have been some defensive wounds or bruising not noted by then because there was so much decomposition.

My only problem so far is why the room was not more disturbed?

[1bigsteve]

I think that the absence of "defence wounds" indicates, to me, that the killer must have been a trusted person. I don't think Abby would have turned her back on a stranger. It is possible that a stranger snuck up on Abby and caught her unaware but I feel that the killer was someone Abby knew and trusted. However, the face wound could have been dealt when Abby was facing the killer, and if she were facing the killer then the killer could have been a stranger. Something tell's me that the killer was a trusted person who was talking face to face with Abby and caught Abby off guard with the first blow. Abby was not expecting the attack and didn't react in time. Once Abby's bell was rung the killer just went to work on her. That is what I'm thinking.

-1bigsteve (o:

[Kat]

Sorry bigsteve, we crossed posts. I did not see you there.

[1bigsteve]

Two ships passing in the night...

The undisturbed room has always puzzled me as well. Abby could have easily fell against the dresser and broke stuff, or landed on the bed. As it was she landed in that narrow space between them. Perhaps she was on her knees and hit from behind. Perhaps the movie version has it right?

Hmmm....

-1bigsteve (o:

[Allen]

The Witness Statements page 22, Saturday October 1, 1892. From the notes of Harrington.

Dr. Albert C. Dedrick. "I was going on a call to Whipple street, when I saw Dr. Dolan drive along Second street like mad, and stop at Mr. Borden's. When I returned, there was a large crowd there, and I went in. Mr. Borden's left hand, which rested on his hip, was smeared with blood. I called Dr. Bowen's attention to it...."

A little further down in the same notes.

"I think Mrs. Borden was dead first, for when I took hold of her arm, it was cold, clammy, and very stiff. When I took hold of Mr. Borden's, to look at the blood on his hand, it bent very easily."


I'm wondering why Dr. Dedrick was so interested in the blood on Andrew's left hand. It is also is possible he moved the body slightly from it's original position. But with all the other blood present in the room, what drew his attention about this particular smear? He makes no mention of this in his testimony at trial.

[Allen]

I was keeping in mind the fact- the strange, unavoidable fact- that the wound to Abbie's neck/shoulder was not found until the 11th.
I figure if that is so- then there might have been some defensive wounds or bruising not noted by then because there was so much decomposition.

My only problem so far is why the room was not more disturbed?

That's a good point about the wound not being found until the 11th. Tends to throw some doubt on how thorough the initial examination of the bodies actually was. Both murder scenes were left pretty much in an undisturbed state. You're right, Kat, that is odd considering how vicious the attacks were. If she were on her knees when the killer struck the first blow it could explain the lack of disturbance. A blitz attack could also fit the scenario. No defensive wounds reported, and the room undisturbed. Though it is possible they missed indications of a struggle. Whatever happened it's my feeling it happened very quickly.

[Kat]

Here is what appeared in the newspaper- A "Partial Autopsy" record. This is pretty much what Dr. Dolan first submitted, on the 8th:
Evening Standard
Friday August 26, 1892 Page 2

[Under headline]:"COURT-ROOM SCENES."

The "Partial" Report.

Copy of the findings of the inquest as presented to presiding Judge Blaisdell :
Bristol ss., to J. C. Blaisdell, Justice of the Second District Court of the County of Bristol.
In conformity with section 9 of chapter 200 of the acts of the year 1877, I return herewith a copy of my record of an autopsy of the body of Mrs. Andrew J. Borden aged 67 years, found lying in Fall River and supposed to have come to death by violence. The said autopsy was made by authority of Mayor Coughlin at 3 o'clock in the afternoon of Thursday, the fourth day of August, A. D., 1892, in the presence of W. T. Learned, residing at Fall River, and J. Q. A. Tourellot, residing at Fall River, who were required by me to attend the same as witnesses thereof, viz: The body was found lying upon Second street. Before proceeding with the autopsy I called the attention of the witnesses summoned by me to the appearance and position of the body, and caused them carefully to observe the same. The autopsy then proceeded as follows: On the left side of the head over the ear was a wound two and a half inches long by one and a quarter wide. On the right side of her head was a number of cuts penetrating the brain and so intermingled as to be practically impossible to count, and I further declare it to be my opinion that the said Mrs. A. J. Borden came to her death from shock, the result of blows from an axe or a large hatchet.
Dated at Fall River, in the county of Bristol, this 8th day of August, A. D., 1892.
W. A. Dolan, Medical Examiner.
The other autopsy was in the presence of the witnesses, and was on the body of Andrew J. Borden. It states: "The autopsy then proceeded as follows: The left side of the face and head was cut and smashed in by no less than 12 distinct blows of an axe or large hatchet." In other respects it does not differ from the above copy of the report of the autopsy on Mrs. Borden.

[Allen]

So Dr. Dolan claimed in the report that Abby died from shock. Also it appears that his claim was that all of the cuts, except one, were on the right side of Abby's head? If you look at the photo of Abby's shaved head this is definitely not the case. There also is no wound count for Abby, and what seems to be a guesstimate of the number of wounds on Andrew.

[Smudgeman]

He does seem to say Abby died of shock after the 1st blow of the weapon. So the number of wounds didn't matter, because she died immediately? I do imagine that Abby was in shock and that is why there were no defensive wounds on her hands, arms. I do agree it all happened very quickly also, hence the undisturbed room, signs of a struggle. But didn't Dr. Bowen suggest she died of fright? Maybe, they all thought she died before the 1st blow was ever delivered?

[Angel]

If that was the case, it would explain the fact that the blood splatters were so limited.

[Allen]

I wonder what the doctor's would have based this conclusion on?

[Kat]

I think Dr. Dolan means *a shock to the system*, not fright or fear- it might also imply massive blood loss. Notice he only mentions the flap wound (the face-to-face wound) and then the cluster that broke her skull open. I think at that point, Abbie's head was not shaved- and that's why such a cursory report and view. He is documenting what killed her- not the multitude of wounds.
And yes, the remainder do seem to go every which way, but were not killing wounds- the ones exposed when her hair was cut away.

Maybe the assailant put the room back together- if there was a struggle and things were knocked about- but that implies someone who'd know how the room should look- like the things on the bureau.

Since we don't have color photos, I don't personally assume there was not much blood spatter- I'm not sure about that.