What was the argument about?

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Thu Jul 19, 2007 6:36 pm

I was reading the witpeka (spelling, sorry) encylcopedia bio on Lizzie and it stated, "Shortly before the murders, a heated arguement had taken place which resulted in both Emma and Lizzie leaving home on an extended "vacattions"; Lizzie, however, decided to cut her trip short and return early"

Has anyone heard this, and does anyone know what the agrument was about?

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Fri Jul 20, 2007 12:20 am

I can't remember what the reason was for the argument, Snokks, but it was probably about money or Andrew's heavy-handedness. Perhaps Lizzie came back early to get back into her father's good graces. Others here would know more about this.

-1bigsteve (o:

sguthmann · Post by **sguthmann** » Fri Jul 20, 2007 1:23 am

wikipedia is, by nature, far from being reliable and accurate since its contents come from anyone who wants to contribute. its always a good rule of thumb to confirm anything you find in wikipedia with other, more reliable sources.

now, i don't recall anything about such an argument between the sisters right before the murders, but of course i may be wrong and 1bigsteve is quite right that others here may be able to answer with more certainty on the item. i'm anxious to hear from our experts!

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Fri Jul 20, 2007 7:56 am

I don't know of any argument that preceded the Borden sisters leaving.

At the time of the murders Emma had been in Fairhaven approx. two weeks and from an article in the FR Globe dated Aug. 25: "Miss Emma was the guest of Miss Helen Brownell, daughter of Mrs. Allen Brownell, and had made arrangements to spend the summer." This visit was obviously pre-planned.

Lizzie was definitely supposed to stay with her friends at the Handy cottage in Marion for her fishing trip. That also had been planned.

In fact, if we stop to think about it, is there any record of any argument at any time? The prosecution sure could have used a history of arguments.

Even the disagreement over Andrew buying the portion of the Whitehead house for Abby was not that serious (according to Lizzie). Of course she would say that as it was the one the prosecution keyed on.

Bridget testified at the trial, p255:

"Q. You never saw any conflict in the family?
A. No, sir.
Q. Never saw the least, ---any quarreling or anything of that kind?
A. No, sir, I did not.
Q. And during the whole time that you were there? You were there two and a half years, I think you said?
A. Yes, sir, two years and nine months."

I don't believe that testimony because I don't think it's possible for 4 adults, living close together, to live in absolute harmony for 33 months. There assuredly was but none that I know of immediately preceding the crimes.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 2:56 am

The Borden story on Wiki has probably been revised more than any other section on there, I bet!
A very dependable member here tried to *fix* it all but very soon it was changed again. It's just so weird that people who are not well-conversed in the story think they can change the content.
Strange.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 11:15 am

Harry @ Fri Jul 20, 2007 6:56 am wrote:I don't know of any argument that preceded the Borden sisters leaving.

At the time of the murders Emma had been in Fairhaven approx. two weeks and from an article in the FR Globe dated Aug. 25: "Miss Emma was the guest of Miss Helen Brownell, daughter of Mrs. Allen Brownell, and had made arrangements to spend the summer." This visit was obviously pre-planned.

Lizzie was definitely supposed to stay with her friends at the Handy cottage in Marion for her fishing trip. That also had been planned.

In fact, if we stop to think about it, is there any record of any argument at any time? The prosecution sure could have used a history of arguments.

Even the disagreement over Andrew buying the portion of the Whitehead house for Abby was not that serious (according to Lizzie). Of course she would say that as it was the one the prosecution keyed on.

Bridget testified at the trial, p255:

"Q. You never saw any conflict in the family?
A. No, sir.
Q. Never saw the least, ---any quarreling or anything of that kind?
A. No, sir, I did not.
Q. And during the whole time that you were there? You were there two and a half years, I think you said?
A. Yes, sir, two years and nine months."

I don't believe that testimony because I don't think it's possible for 4 adults, living close together, to live in absolute harmony for 33 months. There assuredly was but none that I know of immediately preceding the crimes.

Emma, Lizzie, and Bridget would have been able to testify to arguments within the household. If Emma was covering for Lizzie, or possibly concerned with family reputation, then none of them would have been inclined to admit to arguments. Bridget had her future employment to consider, for her to spill family secrets on the stand would do her no good. The only reference to ill will I can find is the incident with the Whitehead house, which is minimized to a disagreement or a difference of opinions.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Jul 24, 2007 1:00 am

Any argument would have to be around Lizzie's birthday.

I've heard it said that there was an argument in the sitting room Wednesday night - I suppose between Andrew and Morse. But that doesn't involve the girls. Uncle John did visit at the end of June, and again on July 10th- on the 15th Andrew bought back the Ferry Street property from the girls and then there was Lizzie's birthday (19th) and the girls left togeher on the (Thursday), July 21st.