Lizzie's Accusation Against Emma??

NESpinster · Post by **NESpinster** » Sun Jul 29, 2007 6:08 am

I know this has probably been brought up before, but I was brushing my teeth

and suddenly remembered it. So I thought I would ask everyone's opinion.

Remember how the matron of Lizzie's jail, Mrs. Hannah Reagan, testified that Lizzie and Emma had had a row during Lizzie's incarceration? She stated that she heard Lizzie say to her sister (who was visiting her):

"Emma, you have given me away, haven't you?"

To which Reagan says Emma replied:

"No, Lizzie, I have not."

At that Lizzie, who had been lying down, sat up and said sharply:

"You have, and I will let you see I won't give in one inch!"

Whereupon Lizzie lay back down, facing away from Emma. For the rest of the visit Lizzie neither spoke nor turned to face her sister again.

IF Matron Reagan was being honest; IF she heard the conversation fully and correctly; and IF she remembered it just as accurately, then I think Lizzie (and probably Emma too) had some serious 'splainin' to do.

What do all of you think of this curious exchange between the sisters?

In what way had Emma "given Lizzie away"??

Why was Emma not shocked (apparently) at the accusation--had she heard something like it before, and/or did she know exactly what Lizzie meant??

What was Lizzie thinking to speak that way in front of Mrs. Reagan, who was an officer of the court and would be sure to testify to it if called? Who probably would have seen it as her duty to report it regardless???

It seems like a pretty damning conversation to me.

What do alll of you think?

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Sun Jul 29, 2007 10:19 am

I have often wondered about this myself. If Hannah did remember it all correctly it could have been about "Emma informing the police about Lizzie" or Emma "cutting Lizzie out of the money." I think it was probably one of these two. Of course a dropped word or an innocent substitution of one word for another could completely change the meaning of the conversation. Of course this depends upon Hannah being honest about what she heard and did not have her own hatchet to grind.

-1bigsteve (o:

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Sun Jul 29, 2007 10:57 am

Assuming truth and accuracy on Mrs. Regan's part, it could have something to do with probating Andrew's estate, however I don't know if this was being done at that time. If for some reason Lizzie was not able to receive her share of Andrew's estate while she was being prosecuted for his murder, Emma would have to take temporary charge of the estate pending the outcome of the trial. This might seem to Lizzie as though she had been "given away" or given up as guilty. It may well have had something to do with Lizzie's attorney, he supposedly questioned whether Emma had told Lizzie everything upon his arrival. In any case, it must have been something which Lizzie thought she could rectify by maintaining her position and "not giving in".

shakiboo · Post by **shakiboo** » Sun Jul 29, 2007 12:12 pm

Once again Lizzies lack of self preservation is just not there! There she is sitting in jail accused of killing her father and stepmother and she's got to be aware of Mrs. Reagan standing right there and says something so inflamming, that could point an even bigger finger at her and neither one of them even bothered to lower their voice!!! I just find that incredible.......Lizzie actually did more damage to herself then any other witness could have. Where would we be without the evidence of the dress burning and now this conversation between the two of them? Just makes no sense.

nbcatlover · Post by **nbcatlover** » Sun Jul 29, 2007 12:58 pm

Again, I don't interpret the converstion as Lizzie being exposed as guilty by Emma. (I truly believe Emma felt her sister was innocent of the actual murder.)

I believe that Emma either made an innocent comment that was revealing about Lizzie's personal life (a contact not previously known to the prosecution and press).

Or more probably, Lizzie was referring to Emma's hiring of former Governor Robinson (Lizzie's defense "given away" to the handling of an outsider who was not part of their little Portsmouth Colony syndicate).

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Sun Jul 29, 2007 3:30 pm

Does anyone have a copy of the New Bedford Evening Standard article from August 25, 1892? I have a poorly executed copy that is Xeroxed and a portion is cut off. This is one of the newspapers or the newspaper that has the story of the fight between Emma and Lizzie, quite a long story. According to their article, there was a bit more said by the sisters, so, I thought it might be neat to include that in this thread.

I can try to piece it together, but, it might not be accurate, whats missing and I guess at will be in parenthesis:

"You gave me away, Emma, did you not (?")
"No, Lizzie, I only told Mr. Je(nnings)
what he ought to know for your de(fense.")
"That is false. You have given me (away)
and I know it; but remember! I (will not)
give in one inch, never! Never! (That is)
all I have to say to you."

I guess it depends how much faith you put in the newspapers of the time, but, this one seems to me to have the argument in a nutshell.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Sun Jul 29, 2007 5:23 pm

You are very close Susan. This is the exact wording that appeared in the paper.

"You gave me away, Emma, did you not?"
"No, Lizzie, I only told Mr. Jennings what he ought to know for your defence."
"That is false. You have given me away and I know it; but remember! I will not give in one inch, never! never! That is all I have to say to you."

This is what Mrs. Reagan testified to at the Trial (p1214):

"Q. Now will you go on and describe in your own way what occurred after Miss Emma came, the time that elapsed, and all that was said and done?
A. Miss Emma Borden came to my room about twenty minutes to nine o’clock on the 24th day of August, and I let her in and she spoke to her sister Lizzie, and I left the two women talking together and I went into a toilet room about four feet from where Miss Lizzie Borden was lying on a couch, and I heard very loud talk, and I came to my door and it was Miss Lizzie Borden; she was lying on her left side and her sister Emma was talking to her and bending right over her, and Lizzie says, "Emma, you have gave me away, haven't you?"' She says, "No, Lizzie, I have not." "You have," she says, "and I will let you see I won't give in one inch," and she sat right up and put up her finger, and I stood in the door way looking at both of them.

Q. Was Miss Borden's tone loud or low?
A. I could not hear what Miss Emma said only "I did not, Lizzie," "I did not give you away, Lizzie." She says, "you have."

Susan · Post by **Susan** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 1:05 am

Thanks, Harry. Its an interesting article, but, maddening for me trying to piece it together with all the missing parts. Makes me wonder if the newspaper report is closer to what was actually said as it was written close to when the incident happened? Mrs. Reagan told her story, then recanted it, then when questioned at the trial it appears that the story was true. But, was she downplaying what had happened originally and what was said?

sguthmann · Post by **sguthmann** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 1:41 am

what events (or transactions) occurred around this date when the sisters' conversation allegedly took place? what had emma been up to in the 24-48 hours prior to this exchange? who had she met with, what transactions had taken place, etc? these details are key in making an informed guess as to what was behind the heated words.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 3:17 am

Jennings had been to see Emma that day in her home and they had a consultation, without Lizzie.

Then Jennings went to see Lizzie, his client, in jail.

Then Emma went to visit Lizzie and was met with this response.

This all happened the day before the start of the Preliminary Hearing, Aug. 24th. The Hearing was supposed to start on the 22nd but was postponed until the 25th.

sguthmann · Post by **sguthmann** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 11:12 pm

thanks kat! i wish we knew what was discussed between emma and jennings during that meeting.

it would appear that lizzie was most likely upset over something that had been discussed between emma and jennings...something lizzie held emma responsible for...hmmm...

nbcatlover · Post by **nbcatlover** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:39 pm

I don't know this so I have to ask. Does anyone know, timewise, when Robinson came onboard as counsel?

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:47 pm

Cynthia, it was announced in the February 2, 1893 Boston Globe that Robinson had been retained as part of the defense team.

nbcatlover · Post by **nbcatlover** » Tue Jul 31, 2007 1:47 pm

Thanks, Harry. That pretty well shoots down my theory since the argument was in August, 1892.

Who's gotten to read the Hip Bath collection? Did Jennings date his notations, I wonder?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 2:03 am

Do you mean which authors got to read it, Cynthia?

I know de Mille got to read the Jennings notes. And Barbara Ashton, who wrote about it in Proceedings.
Our copy of the Prelim has his notes on the opposite page to the testimony, but it's a bit hard to read.

Or do you ask if it is known when Jennings made those notes? That's a good question.

nbcatlover · Post by **nbcatlover** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 3:42 pm

Yes, Kat. I would be curious as to his notations for the time period of his consultations with Emma and with Lizzie and after the spat. The Barbara Ashton notations in the Proceedings books fascinate me. Clues! Clues! But what do they mean?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 5:24 pm

For those who can get into the Privy, there are Jenning's notes- but not the ones he made in the Prelim, and not the ones in the special notebook (from the Hipbath Collection) which was returned to the family by the FRHS at their request.

viewtopic.php?t=37

nbcatlover · Post by **nbcatlover** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 11:22 pm

Thanks, Kat. I'd forgotten some of the details. Hiriam has been on my mind lately because of the book I've been reading.

The book's "Hiriam" is kind of a helpful good ol' boy. He comes to the wealthier household when the master has left and helps himself to the breakfast fixings. Then he's off to the barn to shag the maid.

If Hiriam Harrington was anything like that, I can understand some resentment if he was "fooling around" on sick Lusanna in her own brother's household.

(Remember, this is not fact. This is based on characters in a book that was referenced in some related families' genealogy site.)

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 7:55 am

nbcatlover @ Wed Aug 01, 2007 11:22 pm wrote:Thanks, Kat. I'd forgotten some of the details. Hiriam has been on my mind lately because of the book I've been reading.

The book's "Hiriam" is kind of a helpful good ol' boy. He comes to the wealthier household when the master has left and helps himself to the breakfast fixings. Then he's off to the barn to shag the maid.

If Hiriam Harrington was anything like that, I can understand some resentment if he was "fooling around" on sick Lusanna in her own brother's household.

(Remember, this is not fact. This is based on characters in a book that was referenced in some related families' genealogy site.)

What book are you reading? Now you've really captured my attention.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 10:17 am

This is a link that Harry provided us in March, 2002, at our old Forum, about Hiram's trip out West as a young man.

http://www.rootsweb.com/~rinewpor/mercury1882.html

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 10:23 am

If you'all want more Hiram info, I collected it from our old Forum. It's just some bio info that comes from Hoffman and Knowlton Papers.