Lizzie Question. Was she

[affie4u]

I have never heard this before but someone talking about the Lizzie Bordon case says that they heard that she was midly retarted (there words, not mine ). Has anybody eles ever heard anything like this before?

[doug65oh]

Oh wow - no, that's one I've never heard batted about anywhere - and there's a bunch of things flying out there about the Borden case...different theories, things like that. Offhand though, if you'd care to solve that one for yourself (this one you can actually do that with) you might visit http://lizzieandrewborden.com/Resources ... uments.htm and have a look at Volume 1 of the inquest, which contains testimony that Lizzie herself gave during the first official inquiry after the murders. Just a few pages of that should set the matter to rest for you I would think.

[mbhenty]

Yes, affie4u I have heard that one before, from someone who knew someone who knew Lizzie. How credible it is, ????, can't really say but never-the-less very interesting.

I stopped at my Barber to drop off an issue of the Hatchet-----this was about 9 months ago.

He was cutting this gentleman's hair. This fellow is a city official, or works in city government in Fall River. I would say he was around 63 years old.

He told me that his grandfather was Lizzie Borden's house painter. Though he did not give any particulars he mentioned that he remembers speaking to his grandfather and that he implied that Lizzie was not wrapped to tight and that he walked away with the impression that she had a mental problem.

[nbcatlover]

In one photo, I wondered if Lizzie had a goiter on her neck. Thyroid disease can affect thought processes, so having periods of unclear thinking would make sense to me.

I had one time speculated on lead paint poisoning. It too affect thought processes.

[affie4u]

What about saying Lizzie was mentally challanged? Is there any truth in
that?

[Angel]

I remember a hospitalized patient I had once that was diagnosed as schizophrenic. She was a young adult, quiet, well behaved, but had a tendency to stare ahead with that same vacant expression I see in Lizzie's face, a strange stare that I've read many people who observed Lizzie have commented about. This girl would sometimes go into an almost catatonic state. Maybe that's the "spells" people talk about re Lizzie. This girl seemed like a very meek little lady, but she was in the hospital because she had attacked her mother. Maybe Lizzie had bouts of schizophrenic moments which made her seem odd to others. And if she was less responsive or expressionless at times than other people, then maybe some thought she was slow.

[Michael]

. . . Let's also keep in mind Lizzie's "peculiar spells", per Victoria Lincoln's book.

[nbcatlover]

Absence seizures would explain the spells as well. The person having one usually doesn't know that they "went away" briefly.

[nbcatlover]

P. S. You can have schizoprenia or seizures and still be very intelligent.

Here's another forum thread on Mental Illness:

viewtopic.php?
t=2224&highlight=mental+illness

and on seeing a Psychiatrist:

viewtopic.php?t=1357&highlight=piano

[Kat]

I've noted that young folk presenting with schizophrenia have often been very intelligent- but is there such a thing as "bouts" of it? That I had not heard of, unless the person stops taking medication.

[snokkums]

Being mildly retarded, having schizopheniza or having frontal lobe seizure might explain some of the photos I have seen of her that looks like she is staring off into space. But there again, there is no written down proof. Have to think of the time period in that if this was reported, she would have been institutionalized with mental illness. All of the above in that time period was considered mental illness.

[shakiboo]

Y;ou really can't judge by her pictures, they had to hold a pose for several minutes to get the picture. So, just about every picture taken at that time looks like they are in some kind of trance.

[doug65oh]

I'm a bit rusty, but as I recollect the type of schitzophrenia suffered has at least a slight bearing on things. Bouts" is okay but not rally accurate. A better description might be peaks and valleys. It's something that's always present, but varies by degree - at times even with medication.

Were you maybe thinking of epilepsy Kat? That's one whose seizures - well, they're more dependent on medication cycles. Miss the meds, more than likely you'll get zapped.

[Angel]

Y;ou really can't judge by her pictures, they had to hold a pose for several minutes to get the picture. So, just about every picture taken at that time looks like they are in some kind of trance.

Not like THAT. I've never seen other people in vintage photos look the way she does. Her picture was what drew me to the case in the first place,

[Yooper]

You have a point, Angel, Lizzie didn't have to remain motionless any longer than anyone else for a photo.

[Kat]

I'm a bit rusty, but as I recollect the type of schitzophrenia suffered has at least a slight bearing on things. Bouts" is okay but not rally accurate. A better description might be peaks and valleys. It's something that's always present, but varies by degree - at times even with medication.

Were you maybe thinking of epilepsy Kat? That's one whose seizures - well, they're more dependent on medication cycles. Miss the meds, more than likely you'll get zapped.

No sorry- I'm not thinking of epilepsy. I don't know anyone with epilepsy, only schizophrenia. They either are out of it without medication, or are functioning on medication. It's a disorder that is always present, but adjusted thru meds, as far as I've witnessed.

Maybe the person who described it as "bouts" meant something else?

[1bigsteve]

That's a new one on me, Affie4u. I don't think Lizzie was too "retarded" the way she slithered out of that trial.

There is an episode of "Colombo" that deals with a woman (Janet Leigh) who killes her husband in a very cunning manner but then can't remember doing it afterward.

-1bigsteve (o:

[snokkums]

I think she might have been just little peculiar, that's all.

[nbcatlover]

Severe schizoprenics are not able to control themselves or their hallucinations most of the time, even with medication.

Mild forms of schizoprenia can go undiagnosed, especially in a supportive family environment. Some cultures even credit the person as having special "spiritual" gifts.

I had an uncle who was 82 when he was diagnosed by a very reputable psychiatrist as being schizophrenic. He had always lived in a family environment, and all the siblings had promised their mother to "help" with this brother. He worked in a factory tooling specialized drill bits in a very repetitive type work which most people could not abide. He did this for 40 years. His mother left the house to him, and his brothers reminded him about bills and helped with the upkeep of the house. The family just always considerted him "eccentric," and it was actually shocking to have the label of "schizoprenia" placed on him. He was very bright, very well read, and a talented musician and artist, but he was different from other people in the way he related to others. Vey much a loner.
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