Lizzie and the Piano

nbcatlover · Post by **nbcatlover** » Thu Aug 09, 2007 10:33 pm

. "Re: Victorian America Sites - Fantastic!"
Posted by harry on Mar-24th-03 at 2:16 PM
In response to Message #6.
The Borden's did indeed have a piano. It was located in the parlor.

This is from Rebello, page 10:

"Her life was uneventful during the few years following her leaving school. She abandoned her piano music lessons because, although making encouraging progress, she conceived the idea that she was not destined to become a good musician."
Lincoln also refers to it in chapter 1, page 37 (paperback edition):

"However, there was an upright piano in the parlor which was only twenty years old; all young ladies were supposed to "play." But Lizzie never mastered it. Good works were her natural way to social recognition."

In Kent, discussing the differences between Lizzie and Emma, page 215:

"They were in no way alike. While Lizzie had attempted to play the ancient piano Andrew had installed in the parlor on Second Street, Emma had not."
There is a floor plan of the house showing a piano, although it's exact location in the parlor is not known:

After reading about Emma's studies at Wheaton, I have to re-think Lizzie's dropping out of school and stopping her music. Because she gave Andrew her high school ring, I assumed she was giving it back to him because he had paid for it, and that Andrew was the one who discouraged Lizzie's progress. Now I'm wondering if it was her way of exerting power to keep Lizzie at home and subserviant to Emma since it had now been proved that Emma studied the piano.

I'm beginning to think of Emma, less as a mouse, and more as a manipulative passive-aggressive.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 9:30 am

I'm confused, Cynthia, sorry.
Could you restate your thinking again? Thanks!

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 10:20 am

nbcatlover @ Thu Aug 09, 2007 8:33 pm wrote:
... Now I'm wondering if it was her way of exerting power to keep Lizzie at home and subserviant to Emma since it had now been proved that Emma studied the piano.

I'm beginning to think of Emma, less as a mouse, and more as a manipulative passive-aggressive.

I'm confused as well, Cynthia. I followed your thinking until I got to the sentence you stated in the above quote.

nbcatlover · Post by **nbcatlover** » Fri Aug 10, 2007 10:16 pm

After reading about all Emma's piano lessons and the piano Andrew hired for her at Wheaton, I can't help but wonder if Emma is the one who encouraged Lizzie's notion that she was not a good musician.

It was always presented, prior to this new research, that Emma didn't touch the Borden piano (in the sense that she didn't know how to play it).

Lizzie's ability to play the piano well made her more socially desirable in those times. It was also a genteel way to entertain gentlemen callers and friends.

Prior to this new research, I had the impression that Andrew was the one who helped Lizzie conceive the idea that she was not a good musician (through criticism, perhaps) as a means of preventing possible courtships and keeping her home.

Now I can't help but wonder if Emma, with her expertise, coached Lizzie's playing and criticized her heavily, causing her to abandon her playing, as a method of discouraging suitors

Am I making my speculations any clearer? Perhaps my speculations are just too imaginative/fanciful to make sense.

shakiboo · Post by **shakiboo** » Sat Aug 11, 2007 11:53 am

I get what your trying to say.......Emma was the one who made Lizzie feel she couldn't play the piano well, and not Andrew. I've felt all along that Emma was the cause of alot of things Lizzie did or didn't do. She had a lot of anger and hostility towards Abby, and over time, influenced Lizzie to feel that way also.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Sat Aug 11, 2007 12:25 pm

I agree, Pam. I think there was a lot of things about Emma that we don't know about; Emma is more of a mystery than Lizzie.

nbcatlover · Post by **nbcatlover** » Sat Aug 11, 2007 5:34 pm

I believe Spierling was the author who thought Emma was responsible for the murders.

It was interesting to learn about the emphasis on exercise and the availability of horseback riding at Wheaton. While it's now shown that Emma did not like the participation in the school's exercise program, it does not mean that she didn't know how to ride a horse. Ity would seem that Emma, if she perceived the need, could mount a horse and ride, perhaps, from Fairhaven to Fall River.

While I personally don't believe Emma committed the murders, I can imagine her as having more knowledge about events on August 4 and beingl an accessory both before and after the fact. She had higher intellect and wider abilities than most sketches of "mousey" Emma have implied. She certainly didn't wait much time gaining control of the estate after the murders.

It's just very curious to me, that in 115 years, no one had brought forth the Wheaton connection before. There were branches of the Wheaton family in Swansea. kfactor found Emma on an alumni list. With all the notoriety surrounding these murders, no one came forth and said "I went to school with Emma," or "I was Emma's roommate," or "I knew Emma when..." Certainly there would be far less stigma knowing "innocent" Emma than in knowing "accused" Lizzie. It's always the absence of normal human behavior at work that fascinates me about the case. It's those missing pieces that always bother me.

shakiboo · Post by **shakiboo** » Sat Aug 11, 2007 8:44 pm

I think too, that there was more going on between Emma and Abby then there was between Lizzie and Abby. Emma for all her quiet and reserved ways, most definately never forgave Abby, and even as an adult never realised that Abby wasn't to blame in any way, for the loss of her mother. Maybe it was her and uncle John that cooked up the plan and hired some one to do it.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Aug 11, 2007 10:28 pm

Am I making my speculations any clearer? Perhaps my speculations are just too imaginative/fanciful to make sense.

--Cynthia

As Knowlton said to Fleet, in the Preliminary Hearing: "You have got some shes there."

That was where I lost your thought.

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Sat Aug 11, 2007 11:02 pm

I think Emma was the cause of alot of things in that house, she was just quiet enough not to draw attention to herself. That's the reason why I think that there was a conspiracy between the two; don't think Lizzie could come up with this on her own. Besides, I think she was trying to impress Emma, you like, see I am worthy of you.

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Sat Aug 11, 2007 11:24 pm

twinsrwe @ Sat Aug 11, 2007 8:25 am wrote:I agree, Pam. I think there was a lot of things about Emma that we don't know about; Emma is more of a mystery than Lizzie.

When I was a little boy I was very quiet and easy-going. One day a neighbor boy pushed me into a rose bush and I came out swinging. My dad was watching through a window and was surprised that I would punch a kid out and for years afterward he would often say, "It is the quiet ones you have to worry about." That's the way I feel about Emma. She was just a bit too quiet I feel. Something was going through her head. Like the old verse, "Still waters run deep."

-1bigsteve (o:

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Sun Aug 12, 2007 1:59 am

1bigsteve @ Sat Aug 11, 2007 9:24 pm wrote:... "It is the quiet ones you have to worry about." That's the way I feel about Emma. She was just a bit too quiet I feel. Something was going through her head. Like the old verse, "Still waters run deep."

-1bigsteve (o:

I agree, Steve. I was told as a child to "Watch out for the quiet ones", which I always thought was rather funny. Let me explain; my twin brother and I were very quiet and shy as children - both of us were introverts, however, I was an instigator/follower and my brother was a leader. I was always "planting a seed' in my brother's head, then he would take action on whatever I was feeding him; he would take the lead and I would follow him. Let's just say, we got into a lot of hair raising situations; sometimes I wonder how my parents survived.

I think Emma was an introvert and Lizzie was an extrovert. Emma may have been an instigator, and Lizzie a leader. Emma may have "planted the seeds" for ideas and believes in Lizzie, then Lizzie would follow through on those ideas and believes. This line of thinking goes right along with what Pam posted...

shakiboo @ Sat Aug 11, 2007 9:53 am wrote:I get what your trying to say.......Emma was the one who made Lizzie feel she couldn't play the piano well, and not Andrew. I've felt all along that Emma was the cause of alot of things Lizzie did or didn't do. She had a lot of anger and hostility towards Abby, and over time, influenced Lizzie to feel that way also.

I think Emma had a great deal of influence over Lizzie. Emma was the 'mother' figure in Lizzie's life, therefore, Lizzie would accept and believe anything that Emma said.

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Wed Aug 29, 2007 3:38 pm

shakiboo @ Sat Aug 11, 2007 10:53 am wrote:I get what your trying to say.......Emma was the one who made Lizzie feel she couldn't play the piano well, and not Andrew. I've felt all along that Emma was the cause of alot of things Lizzie did or didn't do. She had a lot of anger and hostility towards Abby, and over time, influenced Lizzie to feel that way also.

Maybe it is me, but sometimes I wonder what kind of relationship was between Emma and Lizzie. And between Andrew and Lizzie. Sometimes, to me it appears to be that Emma and Lizzie are close, and at others times it's Lizzie and her father. Almost like when Emma and Lizzie are one the "ins" with each other, she is on the "outs" with her father, and vice versa.

nbcatlover · Post by **nbcatlover** » Mon Sep 03, 2007 12:03 pm

As I re-read this thread after re-reading The Hatchet article, I have to say that I perceive Emma as a more sinister character now.

She had education, intellect, and talent. Why didn't she have suitors? Her promise to her mother regarding "baby Lizzie" should not have caused her to abandon the prospect of marriage or a career like teaching. Marriage to a suitable husband could have provided additional security for Lizzie's future in adulthood.

After reading the Hetty Green book by Slack, I wonder if Andrew discouraged suitors to prevent them from making claims on his estate. Emma seems more of a prospect for lesbianism to me than Lizzie. Wish we knew more about her life at the Minturn in Providence.