I was watching "Lizzie Borden to an axe", and got to thinking. One of the psycologists was saying that women don't kill off the cuff, but for some deep seeded emotional reason, like sexual abuse. Nineteen and eleven whacks to the heads are overkill, suggesting maybe there might have been some sexual abuse going on in the house. And he said something to the effect that, the person that is been abuse is more likely to be harder on the mother because in the abusees eyes the mother is letting this happen.
Of course we will never know for sure because nothing was ever reported. But that was very common in those days, what went on in persons home was none of any ones business.
But it might explain why Lizzie and Emma didn't like Abby and everyone in the house was so tight lipped about everything.
Suicide is painless It brings on many changes and I will take my leave when I please.
I think the number of hatchet blows most likely indicates intense hatred, but it isn't necessarily limited to that. If hatred was the motivator, sexual abuse is a possible reason for it, but I hesitate to call it a probable reason because it is only one of many reasons to hate. I expect it would be difficult to be discrete about sexual abuse within the confines of the Borden house, so Emma and Bridget might have been aware of it. If Lizzie considered Emma to be a surrogate mother, then perhaps Emma was allowing it to happen, too.
I suppose the bottom line is that we have to begin an analysis from a solid premise. We don't really have much evidence of sexual abuse, so it is a relatively weak premise at best. We know the number of hatchet blows, so that's a better place to start.
To do is to be. ~Socrates
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
I think the reason we don't have much evidence on sexual abuse is because in that time period, things like that weren't reported, let alone talk about. And as for Lizzie considering Emma a surrogate mother, and I think she did, then perhaps Emma was allowing this to happen too, why didn't she try to kill Emma too?
Suicide is painless It brings on many changes and I will take my leave when I please.
I really have trouble with the whole sexual abuse premise, simply because there is just no evidence of it. Wouldn't people see overtime a change in Lizzie's attitude towards her father? Of course there were some neighbors and acquaintances who confided to the police that she said several nasty things about her step-mother. To some, there was no doubt how Lizzy felt about her. But nothing about the father. And if there was sexual abuse, why would she leave a vacation early from friends? Wouldn't she savor the time away from the abuse?
I agree that there was hatred needed to swing an axe that number of times. But I see the evidence pointing towards the misallocation of funds (in Lizzie's mind) as being the biggest trigger.
All we have as an indicator of any arguably drastic change is the purchase by Andrew of a half interest in the Whitehead residence. Lizzie and Emma's reaction to that was severe, and it suggests financial motivation. This seems a more concrete basis for contending motive than sexual abuse. I don't think we can rule anything out, but we can't begin with a conclusion and rationalize from there.
To do is to be. ~Socrates
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
As I have said before, just because there is no proof of abuse doesn't mean that it happened or didn't. We will never know for sure, because it was never reported.
Financal reason are avery good motive to for killing. We do know that Lizzie and Emma were upset at Andrew giving some property to Abbys stepsister and husband.
And I think that all those years of living below what Lizzie thought was there soical standing could be considered a deep emotional feeling. She harbored resentment that they were living below thier means.
Suicide is painless It brings on many changes and I will take my leave when I please.
Snokkums, that's a great point. She did have a deep resentment for the way they were living. I remember LeeAnn pointing out on our visit that Lizzie's room was the only room in the house with crown molding. Wonder when that was installed? Perhaps after her grand trip abroad?
Being surrounded by beautiful things was very important to her. Status, luxury, modern conveniences...all the things that Lizzie didn't have living there.
I wonder if Lizzie and Emma ever thought about moving out and living together. Was it just more customary in that time period to remain with your parents, if you were unwed, until their deaths?
Andrew's wealth enabled Lizzie's aspirations to status and privilege. If Andrew had been of more humble means, she might not have seriously entertained such ideas.
I think Lizzie and Emma thought that one day they would inherit Andrew's wealth which would fuel the aspirations. The trouble was, Abby was in the way. Here they were, thirty-odd and forty-odd years old, doing their best to be worthy in Andrew's eyes and enduring his miserly habits, only to watch him squander part of "their" fortune on Abby and her family by purchasing half of the Whitehead house. I expect the lights came on at that moment.
To do is to be. ~Socrates
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
I think money was one motive. Can you imagine how frustrated Lizzie must have been after her trip to Europe. To see all the beautiful things that she probably thought she should have, also to experience indoor plumbing. That and knowing that your father could well afford those things but wouldn't buy them. If there was sexual abuse I'm sure back then it wasn't spoken about, plus they had very ridgid rules of behavior that I don't think anyone would ever go against for fear of being ostrasized (sp?). Plus if no one talked about such things I'm sure you would think that you were alone and it was only happening to you.
Cheryl, that is interesting to know that Lizzie's is the only room at the B & B that had decorative crown molding.
I would guess it was put on some time after Lizzie moved into that room. Emma says on the stand that it was hers (Emma's) idea to switch rooms.
I think Emma could not stand sharing a wall with Abby.
Did anyone report any incest/sexual abuse in 1892? Still, even if they did, Lizzie may have not been in a position to tell.
This is true - we will probably never know if she or Emma were sexually abused. And the same goes for being gay. Unless a few letters were found some day ...
I think John Morse told 'the girls' what Andrew told him about what he was going to put in his will.
augusta @ Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:38 am wrote:I think John Morse told 'the girls' what Andrew told him about what he was going to put in his will.
I agree with this too. I think we're of the same mind on a lot of things. I believe Morse lied by omission on the stand. Thru his testimonies, I believe the one lie he told outright was re the will.
“I am innocent. I leave it to my counsel to speak for me.”
—Lizzie A. Borden, June 20, 1893
That would be a real good motive to kill both andrew and abby. I think Lizzie thought that all of what her father had belonged to Emma and her, not Abby and her family.
I think she might have only intended to kill Abby, but I think she might have started thinking that Andrew might disown her if he thought she killed Abby. So she got rid of him too.
Suicide is painless It brings on many changes and I will take my leave when I please.
Andrew invested in the Fourth Street home of Mrs. Gray in May, 1887. That's quite a long reaction time to turn into a killing in 1892, if that was the only motive.
I guess it's more complicated than just that.
Kat, I agree with you. They never forgot it, tho. I think Emma worked on Lizzie for a long time, turned her against Abby, because Emma herself hated her. I think Emma hated Abby from the get-go because she took Emma's place as the woman of the house. Emma cared for Baby Lizzie, as she promised her mother on her death bed.
I also think that John Morse blabbed to at least Emma what Andrew told him about what he was going to put in his will.
I was surprised to learn that Emma disliked Abby more than Lizzie. It's funny because I read it here then a day or two later I read it in 40 Whacks. For some reason that thought never entered my mind. Also I think Uncle John not only blabbed about the will but was behind the scenes on alot of things. The more I read about him the more I'm not sure I'd trust him
Kat @ Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:00 pm wrote:Andrew invested in the Fourth Street home of Mrs. Gray in May, 1887. That's quite a long reaction time to turn into a killing in 1892, if that was the only motive.
I guess it's more complicated than just that.
I agree, the time lapse was too great for the motive to be the investment itself. Andrew's investment in the Whitehead house would have demonstrated that he was inclined to favor Abby and her family, even if only to a relatively small degree. Lizzie and Emma may have been aware that he could do so if he wished, but here was proof positive that he would. That thought could have festered for five years and culminated in the murders. Maybe Emma and Lizzie thought Abby had some influence over Andrew which they resented. The lack of concrete evidence concerning the dynamics within the Borden household gives rise to infinite possibilities.
Nadzieja, it is also surprising that it is Emma herself who we learn this from. She testifies to it - I'm thinking in the inquest.
NO! I certainly don't trust Morse whatsoever. He did a lot of fishy things the day before and day of the murders, and after the murders too.
Abby didn't care for him. She griped to Bridget about him coming over unannounced whenever he felt like it. And to spend the night. That entailed some work.
Contrary to many writers I've read, Morse's visit that August 3rd wasn't as 'out of the blue' as they say. He had it planned with Andrew that he would come over - to look at some cattle for Andrew or something. But they did not set a date. But I do think that he, Lizzie and Emma all figured out the date for him to come.
There's no doubt that he was not at the Borden home when the murders took place. But I think that a butcher friend of his did the murders.
Someone asked why would Lizzie get someone to do it, when that person could blackmail her all her life? Well, he probably realized that if he told, he would have to tell on himself too.
thanks for the answers, I haven't read enough I guess, where can I get info on this butcher friend of his. I can't remember any reference to him. Also didn't Uncle John show up without any suitcase which is a little strange if you are going to spend the night somewhere. The more I read about him the less I like him. I wonder if Lizzie didn't like him much either seeing she didn't even say hello to him when she knew he was there talking with Andrew & Abby
In our very first issue of The Hatchet there is the long, involved story written by Fritz Aldiz, about a whole theory you might find interesting.
It's called "The Solution To The Borden Mystery."
I think *Bridget's story about Abbie's complaint* about Morse comes from a suspect source- Nellie McHenry. I'm not saying it's not true, but that source is not reliable. Knowlton Papers, pg 33, #HK023, partial: [Nellie McHenry says Bridget said]. . .Mrs. Borden had been talking about Mr. Morse all the
week long saying "now he is here I suppose we will have him on our hands
all summer, I dont see why he dont get married and go away" . . .
--As to what the girls felt about *Father* and Abbie, see Alice Russell- Interesting!
Inquest
Alice Russell
Q. Do you recollect anything else that she [Lizzie] said?
A. I cant unless something was asked me; it might come to me then; I cant, as I am trying to tell you.
Q. I do not like to ask this question, but I feel obliged to. Did you see enough to notice what the relations were between Miss Lizzie and her mother?
A. In all my acquaintance, which is ten years sure, and most of that time has been, part of the time quite intimate, I never yet heard any wrangling in the family. I have got to answer the question, and I will say I dont think they were congenial.
Q. What gave you the impression they were not congenial?
A. Because their tastes differed in every way; one liked one thing, and the other liked another.
151
Q. Were they together very much?
A. I dont think they were very much.
Q. I suppose what you say about Lizzie is also true of Emma?
A. About the same; it was not always the same, but it would be hard work to tell.
Q. I judge by your saying they had a sitting room up stairs---
A. They sat up there a great deal.
Q. Their step mother did not sit up there with them?
A. I dont think so.
Q. Did you ever hear Lizzie speak of any trouble she had had with her mother?
A. Yes, I suppose I have. I have heard her say that Mrs. Borden thought so and so; the same as any family.
Q. Did she express to you ever that she regarded her mother as untruthful or deceitful?
A. I dont think she ever did.
Q. Did she ever allude particularly to any trouble she ever had with her mother?
A. No Sir.
Q. Did she ever tell you what the trouble was?
A. Nothing further than she was a step mother. The whole thing was as far as I could see, that an own mother might have had more influence over the father; it was the father more than the mother.
Q. What do you mean?
A. The father was the head of the house; they had to do as he thought. Mrs. Borden did not control the house; the whole summing up of it, was that.
Q. Were her relations with her father cordial?
A. So far as I know. I never saw anything different.
Q. Were they congenial?
A. I should not suppose they would be - knowing their different natures.
Q. The different nature of the father and mother and Lizzie?
A. Yes, each of them.
Q. What was the difference in their natures?
A. Mr. Borden was a plain living man with ridgid ideas, and very set. They were young girls. He had earned his money, and he did not care for the things that young women in their position naturally would; and he looked upon those things--- I dont know just how to put it.
Q. He did not appreciate girls?
A. No, I dont think he did.
Q. Their ideas were more modern than his with regard to the way of living, do you mean?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. How did you get this, from the girls talk, or what you observed?
A. From what I observed. Everybody knew what Andrew Borden’s ideas were. He was a very plain living man; he did not care for anything
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different. It always seemed to me as if he did not see why they should care for anything different.
Q. Did they complain about it?
A. Yes, they used to think it ought to be different; there was no reason why it should not be. They used to think it might be different.
Q. Lizzie or Emma, or both?
A. Both.
Q. There never was any wrangling between them?
A. No, I never heard any. They had quite refined ideas, and they would like to have been cultured girls, and would like to have had different advantages, and it would natural for girls to express themselves that way. I think it would have been very unnatural if they had not.
Q. He did not give them the advantages of education that they thought they ought to have had?
A. I dont know as it is just that; but people cannot go and do and have, unless they have ample means to do it.
It's a possibility that any influence Abby had over Andrew was a problem. Lizzie and Emma had enough influence over him to finagle a half-interest each in a house from him, the same as Abby had. This came more in the form of a concession than as a gift. Was there some sort of an influence contest afoot in the Borden household perhaps?
To do is to be. ~Socrates
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
[quote="Yooper @ Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:24 am"]I think the number of hatchet blows most likely indicates intense hatred, but it isn't necessarily limited to that. If hatred was the motivator, sexual abuse is a possible reason for it, but I hesitate to call it a probable reason because it is only one of many reasons to hate. I expect it would be difficult to be discrete about sexual abuse within the confines of the Borden house, so Emma and Bridget might have been aware of it. If Lizzie considered Emma to be a surrogate mother, then perhaps Emma was allowing it to happen, too.
I suppose the bottom line is that we have to begin an analysis from a solid premise. We don't really have much evidence of sexual abuse, so it is a relatively weak premise at best. We know the number of hatchet blows, so that's a better place to start.[/quote
I always look at it as, just because there was no evidence of sexual abuse, doesn't mean that it didn't happen. Ultimatly, we will never know because nothing was ever reported. But that was very typical for those days. Stuff just wasn't reported like it is today.
You are right about being discrete in that house because of the way the house was; Emma and Bridget would have had to have known. which leads be to think that Emma and Bridget were being abused too.
But if they weren't, and Lizzie was upset at father and mother enough to kill them, why didn't she go after Emma, if she felt that Emma was the surrogate mother.
Suicide is painless It brings on many changes and I will take my leave when I please.
If we include Emma and Bridget in the sexual abuse scenario, we give Andrew an awful lot of credit at age seventy! If the credit is deserved, why stop with Emma and Bridget? Wouldn't Andrew have a reputation as something other than, or in addition to, a miser as a result?
To do is to be. ~Socrates
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
Assume for a moment that Andrew had needs which Abby couldn't or wouldn't fulfill. If we suggest that he was involved with Lizzie, Emma, and Bridget simultaneously, it implies a randomness to his actions. Why would this be limited to the household if his actions were random and capricious? Why would he not have a reputation along the lines of "Handy Andy"
To do is to be. ~Socrates
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
If we search for possible justifications for the murders, sexual abuse is a possibility, but only from the perspective that anything is possible. There is no evidence that I am aware of which implies it was so. It could possibly be used by the abused to excuse the murder of the abuser under the proper conditions, but I don't see that here. Abby was also murdered. The murder of Andrew was not in self defense at the time it was committed, he was asleep on the sofa. If Lizzie was the one being abused and the murderer, she had enough money to move out of the house and remove herself from exposure to harm, but she chose to remain in the household. She had the option to go to the authorities with the information, but she chose not to. There were too many choices involved to justify a compulsion.
To do is to be. ~Socrates
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
Yooper @ Wed Nov 14, 2007 8:53 am wrote:Assume for a moment that Andrew had needs which Abby couldn't or wouldn't fulfill. If we suggest that he was involved with Lizzie, Emma, and Bridget simultaneously, it implies a randomness to his actions. Why would this be limited to the household if his actions were random and capricious? ...
Good question, Jeff. I really can't see Andrew as being prone to sudden illogical changes of mind, ideas, or actions. He would never have obtained the wealth he did in his lifetime by being capricious. I have always believed Andrew was very set in his ways, which would contradict any impulsive or unpredictable actions.
In remembrance of my beloved son: "Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 ) “God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
Yooper @ Wed Nov 14, 2007 9:37 am wrote: ...If we search for possible justifications for the murders, sexual abuse is a possibility, but only from the perspective that anything is possible. There is no evidence that I am aware of which implies it was so. It could possibly be used by the abused to excuse the murder of the abuser under the proper conditions, but I don't see that here. Abby was also murdered. The murder of Andrew was not in self defense at the time it was committed, he was asleep on the sofa. If Lizzie was the one being abused and the murderer, she had enough money to move out of the house and remove herself from exposure to harm, but she chose to remain in the household. She had the option to go to the authorities with the information, but she chose not to. There were too many choices involved to justify a compulsion.
I agree, Jeff. I am not saying that the possibility of sexual abuse was not there, but in this particular case, I just don't see it, either.
Lizzie, Emma, and Bridget were grown women, who could have left Andrew's house, gotten jobs, and supported themselves. In other words, these women were not trapped in a 'no way out' situation.
In remembrance of my beloved son: "Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 ) “God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
