what would have make a person get this violent?

[snokkums]

I got to thinking, 19 whacks and 11 whacks to someones head tells me someone was really pissed off at someone.

What would Lizzie so mad at father and stepmother that she would go off kester at her parents like that.

I mean, I know that she and her stepmother didn't get along and didn't like each other, but there is alot of that going around with people, and they aren't out chopping the step parent up.

And, she was mad at her father for letting them live below there means and giving some property to Abby's relatives, but still, there again, there is alot of that going around and people aren't getting axed up.

She must of had this ball of wax wrapped up festering inside her for years for her to explode like this.

What do you all think?

[Yooper]

The rage had focus, it did not include Bridget although there was opportunity to do so before Andrew arrived. There was a time lapse between the murders, so the rage was controlled.

Killing Abby prevented Abby and her family from inheriting Andrew's wealth. Killing Andrew ensured that Lizzie and Emma would inherit it, assuming the lack of a will.

I really doubt that the motive was much more complex than this. The number of hatchet blows might be attributed to frustration, fear, uncertainty, any number of things.

[snokkums]

Yes I think you are Yooper. I didn't look at the way you presented, but do have to agree with you . The rage had focus, and killing Abby first would make sure that Abby's family didn't get anything.

[Cheryl]

Yooper, it's interesting the way you put that...the rage was controlled. I never really looked at it that way. Even the police were commenting among themselves how calm and even conversational she was at times right after the murder. She was extremely controlled.

[augusta]

Excellent point, Yooper. The rage was controlled. It certainly was, for someone to wait a good hour and a half to whack Andrew.

Snookums, yes there was a lot of pent-up rage. Emma disliked Abby even more than Lizzie did. And supposedly Andrew had talked about a will to Morse on two separate occasions. I think Morse would have told the girls what he said. At least Emma. She and he got along well. Andrew may have, besides giving the lion's share to Abby, been contemplating selling the Swansea farm which is said to have made Lizzie upset.

The number of hits I think showed emotion. Or non-emotion. This is why I think a third party - a butcher Morse knew - did the killings. They were used to killing and they were unaffected by the violence.

[affie4u]

Mt guess is someone who felt cheated in life.

If it was lizzie ..
Cheated by the fact that she might not get the money,maybe she felt cheated that her birth mom was dead.

All they anger the person had to have must of gone back a long time ago to do what they did to andrew & abby.

[Angel]

My guess is, not only cheated, but trapped in an impossible situation.

[augusta]

It's said that Lizzie got along great with Abby at first, and called her "Mother" until that Ferry Street property fiasco. Emma, who promised her dying mother that she would take care of Baby Lizzie probably had her nose out of joint, being usurped by the new stepmother.

If I was writing a new Lizzie movie, I'd put Emma's point of view in there. She even admits on the stand that she disliked Abby more than Lizzie.

[JoAnne]

I've thought about this for many years now. Everytime I have gone to the house I hope I will get some insight. I believe Lizzie was desperate. She was in her 30's. That was really "on -the -shelf" for a single woman in that time. She was dependent on her father for everything, even the food she ate. I believe she always thought of Abby more as a housekeeper than a wife to Andrew. However, when he did Abby a favor and bought a share of the Whitehead house to help out Abby's sister, that put things in a different light. Andrew was not known for his generousity!Perhaps he really did love Abby. Lizzie's pent up anger and frustation was wrongly aimed at Abby. I think she thought the elimination of Abby would solve her problems. She would be the head of the household and she would have the influence over her aging father.

She killed Abby ,releasing this pent up anger. Whack! Whack! Whack! over and over again. Then I think her plan was to get out of that house ...go up town..maybe to Sargents before Andrew comes home. But, Andrew did not stick to his regular routine and came home early because he was not feeling well. She knew that when Abby's lifeless body was found, Andrew would know the culprit. He would not be able to save her from this crime as he had done in the past with the shoplifting. He would have to expose her as the killer.

Her only choice was to kill him. As dangerous as that was what else could she do? Andrew knew Lizzie too well.

As soon as the opportunity presented itself, she went into auto -pilot, maybe even an out-of -body ,all- on- adrenaline experience.

I can just picture her hacking her father telling him"Papa ,look what you made me do. This is hurting me more than you."

And as we see even nowadays , the murderer put on a perfectly sincere innocent look and lied...lied...lied. Some even convince themselves they are ( say..OJ). Some get away with it ,too!

Well that's my convoluted long winded theory

[Angel]

I totally agree with you.

[Michael]

I think Yooper and JoAnne are right on target. But, then again, we will never know for certain, will we? And that is part of what makes this a fascinating case.

[snokkums]

I have to agree with you, Joanne. I think that Lizzie had alot of anger towards Abby. You know, the thinking that here is this woman in our house moving in on our things. Andrew did give a house to Abbys sister and husband. Lizzie must have been livid.

Get rid of Abby would have suited her just fine.

[Harry]

Just some thoughts.

Can we assume that Lizzie (and Emma) five years after Andrew had given Abby the portion of the Whitehead house still maintained that level of hatred? A level that would cause Lizzie (if she did it) to murder them both? That's an awful slow burning fuse.

Andrew had just bought back from them the Ferry St. house for $5,000. That was a huge amount of money in 1892, worth at least $100,000 today. That $5,000 meant $2,500 for each daughter. Consider that they were only getting a $4 a week allowance that $2,500 was the equivalent of 625 weeks worth, or 12 years worth of allowances in one shot. Not bad.

Perhaps it was Abby that was mad at Andrew's generosity and protested strongly. This would have angered them far more than a five year old incident. There was a list in Abby's handwriting (and in her belongings) found in February 1893 that listed Andrew's assets which shows she was at least aware of some, if not all, of them.

Would the "girls" have been aware of this list and it's possible implications?

[Tina-Kate]

Probably the most succinct, astute remark I ever heard came a few years back from a friend of a friend of mine when he heard I was writing about Lizzie Borden---

"Lizzie Borden. Ya gotta love someone who's just had enough."

[Yooper]

I'm thinking that just the awareness that Abby would inherit all or a large portion of Andrew's estate would be sufficient. That wouldn't change over any number of years. If the Whitehead house transaction made Lizzie and Emma aware of that possibility for the first time, then perhaps the question arises as to why wait five years? I don't think any concessions on Andrew's part would alter the reality.

[twinsrwe]

... Can we assume that Lizzie (and Emma) five years after Andrew had given Abby the portion of the Whitehead house still maintained that level of hatred? A level that would cause Lizzie (if she did it) to murder them both? That's an awful slow burning fuse. ...

Good point, Harry. A five year after the event reaction, doesn't sound very likely.

... Andrew had just bought back from them the Ferry St. house for $5,000. That was a huge amount of money in 1892, worth at least $100,000 today. That $5,000 meant $2,500 for each daughter. Consider that they were only getting a $4 a week allowance that $2,500 was the equivalent of 625 weeks worth, or 12 years worth of allowances in one shot. Not bad. ...

You're right - that is a lot of money, even by today's standards. Perhaps the result of having that kind of money, in one lump sum, awakened the 'greed bug' in Emma and Lizzie.

... Perhaps it was Abby that was mad at Andrew's generosity and protested strongly. This would have angered them far more than a five year old incident. There was a list in Abby's handwriting (and in her belongings) found in February 1893 that listed Andrew's assets which shows she was at least aware of some, if not all, of them.

Would the "girls" have been aware of this list and it's possible implications?

It is possible that both Lizzie and Emma found out about Abby's list. Since Emma disliked Abby even more than Lizzie did, perhaps Emma couldn't stand the thought of being around Abby, knowing that she had written up this list of Andrew's assets. Perhaps, that is why Emma went to Fairhaven; she may have felt she needed some time alone to figure out how she or she and Lizzie should handle this situation. Granted, she stayed with friends while in Fairhaven, but she would still have had some time, alone, to think, away from the people, and everyday things going on, in Andrew's house.

It is also possible that Abby was mad at Andrew's generosity; so much so, that she was being relentlessly spiteful toward Lizzie by 'rubbing her nose in it' the morning of the murders. I think this would have greatly enraged Lizzie who may have wanted to permanently shut Abby's mouth or she may have felt that Abby was much less deserving of Andrew's assets than she and Emma. Perhaps this was the very last straw that broke the camel's back! This would also account, not only, for the number of blows rained upon Abby's head, but also the obvious fiery of those blows.

An afterthought: If Abby was mad at Andrew's generosity and was strongly protesting, it is possible that Andrew may have given into her just to keep peace in the family. Lizzie may have found out that Andrew gave into Abby and became enraged. This may have been the very thing that Abby cruelly threw in Lizzie's face, then rubbed her nose in it. I think this would account for the number of blows Andrew received and the fiery of those blows.

[Barbara]

Emma was in Fairhaven and did not talk to Uncle John. I think Lizzie over heard Andrew and Abby having a bed time discussion.Her bed was positioned for perfect listening. Whatever the topic I think it set Lizzie off. It could have been about their wills,and how that would effect the "girls". I think she knew she had to act at the first possible opportunity.I agree with JoAnne,Andrew was in the wrong place at the wrong time,but it was more convenient to inherit sooner-rather- than-later. Lizzie had a feeling of desperation,she deserved a better life.Once the blade started flying it took on a life of it's own until the inner demon was quenched. Desperate people do desperate things.Just a few thoughts.

[Angel]

Has anyone ever tried to see if a conversation in Andrew and Abby's room could be heard through the wall into Lizzie's room? She may have eavesdropped a lot.

[Kat]

I was commenting on this 1887 charitable act on Andrew's part towards the Gray family on another topic, before coming to this one.

Also to keep in mind- poor Andrew really did try- in fact he opened his wallet rather wide over the Ferry street property! He essentially bought it 2 times!

Once when he bought 1/2 of it from his father for a life pension. Then he bought the other 1/2 from his sister. Then he ate the cost and gave the whole thing to his daughters. Then he bought it back from them!
Poor guy! He tried...maybe a little too late?

[Kat]

I believe Lizzie showed her bank book to a lady friend and say *Why should I have done it?*-meaning why kill for money when she had plenty-- but I can't find it. I tried Mrs. Brigham and Mrs. Holmes.

[Yooper]

Andrew had purchased the Ferry Street house from Lizzie and Emma not long before the murders, just a month or two as I remember. If he gave them the house because they complained about not having the same thing as Abby, then they complained when they did have the same thing as Abby to the point where he had to buy his house back, then I'm sure Andrew would have given some serious thought to making a will. It would probably seem to him that his daughters and his wife were never going to get along together and look out for each other.

[Barbara]

I have stayed in the Andrew/Abby suite many times. Even with the bed positioned as it is today you can hear conversations in Lizzie's room. I can't imagine how clear those conversations would be if the bed,in Lizzie's room,was as close to the ajoining door as it was in 1892. We are trying to understand Lizzie's motivation by using rational thoughts. She had tasted the fun and opportunities money could provide,her grand tour,and the idea of living the dull life of a spinister on Second St. in Fall River was too much. If she thought, for a second,that Abby would control her future when Andrew died I believe that was all the motive she needed. When the opportunity presented itself she grabbed it.Andrew was collateral damage.

[Harry]

The angle of Lizzie's bed in 1892 has always struck me as being odd. Do we know what size her bed was? As large as the one in the room now?

I can see the bed as possibly being at that angle so she would get the heat from the radiator during the cold months.

I've seen speculation that it was there to block admittance from the senior Borden room. That door was locked from the senior Borden's side and a hook on Lizzie's side. In any case the bed would at best make entrance a little more difficult, certainly not impossible.

Was it there to maximize the space in the room? To better hear any conversations by her parents? We know Lizzie could hear them as she called to them when she heard them sick to offer any help she could.

[Shelley]

If all the window are open, you cannot hear a conversation in the sitting room from Lizzie's room unless the speakers stand right in the sitting room window and speak loudly. You have to go out on the front hall upstairs landing to hear a conversation in the sitting room- of course that would also have been very easy for Lizzie to have done Wednesday night when she came home from Alice's.

What I have found more interesting is the fact that Lizzie moved her headboard right into that corner by the door between her room and Abby's room. Her pillow lines up exactly with the KEYHOLE into the older Borden's bedroom and yes, every single word anyone says in that room can be heard clear as a bell. Andy's safe was also right in that room behind Lizzie pillow. I never thought it was a coincidence she moved that bed as soon as she got back from Europe and crammed it right in that corner. Sure, it kept Abby or anyone else from ever being able to come through that door, but it also gave her the best spot in the house to eavesdrop.

[snokkums]

It's said that Lizzie got along great with Abby at first, and called her "Mother" until that Ferry Street property fiasco. Emma, who promised her dying mother that she would take care of Baby Lizzie probably had her nose out of joint, being usurped by the new stepmother.

If I was writing a new Lizzie movie, I'd put Emma's point of view in there. She even admits on the stand that she disliked Abby more than Lizzie.

I read somewhere, and it might have been on this site, that at first, she and Emma did get along with Abby. Then, when Andrew put a house in Abby's step-sister and husbands name, that set both the girls off . Sometimes I think that Lizzies anger was missplaced.

[Kat]

Do you mean that *Lizzie's anger* was over wrong information?

[snokkums]

No, don't think it was wrong information. I think she was upset at her father for giving Abbys' stepsister and husband the interest from some real estate. I think she thought that it belonged to her and Emma, not someone outside the family, and she definately thought Abby outside the family. So maybe she was getting mad at both of them. Mad at her father for giiving stuff away to someone outside the family, and Abby for being there and accepting the gift.