FEEDBACK REQUESTED ON MY "TURN OF THE SCREW" WHITT

ddnoe · Post by **ddnoe** » Wed Nov 07, 2007 4:41 pm

I would appreciate any feedback I can get on my Whittling about Henry James's "Turn of the Screw" -- even if you are critical.
Thanks to anyone who responds.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Nov 08, 2007 2:28 am

I thought your contribution was your best article yet! I really think you've got *IT.*
I know you've written a lot of things, but this was special- like an apogee.

ddnoe · Post by **ddnoe** » Mon Nov 12, 2007 6:12 am

Kat @ Thu Nov 08, 2007 3:28 am wrote:I thought your contribution was your best article yet! I really think you've got *IT.*
I know you've written a lot of things, but this was special- like an apogee.

(Denise) Thank you so much, Kat! What was it that you particularly liked about this Whittling?

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Mon Nov 12, 2007 8:58 am

It was very well written, Denise. I have not read the book nor seen the movie, The Innocents, but your article aroused an interest to at least see the movie as I read few fiction books. The movie has been on TV several times in the last few months. Will make a mental note to watch it the next time its on.

ddnoe · Post by **ddnoe** » Mon Nov 12, 2007 10:55 am

Harry @ Mon Nov 12, 2007 9:58 am wrote:It was very well written, Denise.

(Denise) Thank you, Harry.

I have not read the book nor seen the movie, The Innocents, but your article aroused an interest to at least see the movie as I read few fiction books. The movie has been on TV several times in the last few months. Will make a mental note to watch it the next time its on.

(Denise) I was hoping this Whittling might inspire someone to read Henry James's classic and/or watch some of the movies discussed. It's nice to know I succeeded in this with at least one reader.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Nov 13, 2007 12:42 am

I thought you created an atmosphere and then was consistent throughout your analysis of the different depictions of the same story. It flowed effortlessly, it was just about perfect in that way. I was caught up in the story about the story, without any jarring references that might make someone *wake up* while reading- by that I mean, sometimes I am reminded I am reading something and that jars me out of the story. This was engaging enough to keep me interested in it itself. It was very professional quality.

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Thu Nov 15, 2007 1:11 am

YES, well done ddnoe. Excellent introduction to James most popular novella "The Turn of the Screw." Of course I'm sure what you are looking for is critical analysis or appraisal, where you succeeded or failed. Well I found your composition to be pretty straight forward and unabridged.

Of course both are mysteries. Was she insane or did she really see ghosts? And, did Lizzie kill her parents or did she not? Both have been argued endlessly by novice scholars and experts alike. Both are great mysteries, mysteries chewed over many times by authors and casual readers.

But, that is where the similarities end. Though they are both great mysteries with multiple outcomes, one is based in fact and the other in fiction. One happened in history----- the other in a writers mind. Who is to know whether Henry James really intended two outcomes, or should I say, perceptions, and whether he favored one over the other.

Either way, your inquiry and description into Henry James short story appears complete, and if I were a high school student could use it in the place of "Cliff Notes" and walk away with an A.

Bob Gutowski · Post by **Bob Gutowski** » Fri Nov 16, 2007 10:02 am

I read it last night on the subway on the way home, and it was simply transporting. You write beautifully. I happen, as a ghost/horror fan, to be familiar with both the novel and several of the films adapted from it (and I've heard the opera by Britten, too). I "got" the parallel with the Borden mystery, and many other mysteries.

I have one tiny technical nitpick. In your sentence referencing Casper (not "Caspar") the Friendly Ghost, I would've cut the first "ghost," ending the clause with "benevolent."

Wonderful, wonderful work!

ddnoe · Post by **ddnoe** » Sat Nov 17, 2007 7:51 am

Kat @ Tue Nov 13, 2007 1:42 am wrote:I thought you created an atmosphere and then was consistent throughout your analysis of the different depictions of the same story. It flowed effortlessly, it was just about perfect in that way. I was caught up in the story about the story, without any jarring references that might make someone *wake up* while reading- by that I mean, sometimes I am reminded I am reading something and that jars me out of the story. This was engaging enough to keep me interested in it itself. It was very professional quality.

(Denise) Thank you very, very much, Kat. Your compliments have really made my day!

ddnoe · Post by **ddnoe** » Sat Nov 17, 2007 7:54 am

Bob Gutowski @ Fri Nov 16, 2007 11:02 am wrote:I read it last night on the subway on the way home, and it was simply transporting. You write beautifully.

(Denise) Thank you very much, Bob

I happen, as a ghost/horror fan, to be familiar with both the novel and several of the films adapted from it (and I've heard the opera by Britten, too). I "got" the parallel with the Borden mystery, and many other mysteries.

I have one tiny technical nitpick. In your sentence referencing Casper (not "Caspar") the Friendly Ghost, I would've cut the first "ghost," ending the clause with "benevolent."

(Denise) Perhaps that would indeed have been a better way to end the clause. However, I have pulled up references to the Friendly Ghost in which his name is spelled "Caspar" as well as "Casper."

Wonderful, wonderful work!

(Denise) Thank you again.

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Sat Nov 17, 2007 2:48 pm

Considering the number of readers of the Hatchet we have on the forum, it always surprises me that more don't critique or comment on its contents.

The forum is an excellent platform for readers to express their desires about what they would like to see written, to express ideas, opinions or fancies.

Having the writer as a member here is a fortunate affair, giving readers personal access to authors. Of course it is also a good place or slide rule by which some writers may measure their work and get a feel to whether their artistic endeavors rang the bell or whether the rope was just a bit short.

Or course, I would never ask whether anyone liked my piece for fear of criticism, or for that matter, praise. On one hand, it would sadden me that my message fell short, while again, I would feel that too much praise would deem my work as insipid or bland. If everyone praised my piece I would feel that perhaps they were just being nice, where, if someone criticized it too harshly, I would be wounded and convinced they did not know what they were talking about. Going out looking is asking for trouble, but if one does not receive it then the looking was not worth it. Appeasing the masses on a grand scale is a wasted undertaking, unless ambitions are based in profit.

Of course much of what I say is said in jest?

All criticism is appreciated and my anguish over it or my ambiguous fear of it, or asking for it, is not all based on schizoid trepidation, which is behavior I leave in exchange for a pint of good aged French Cognac.

Thus, I do not go looking for disparagement of my work, or consummate praise, or casual opinion in that case. But instead, I feel strongly that my Lover approach me, volunteer to tell me he loves me, praise my handsome good looks, speak admiration for my unique abilities and extend kudos for the toil and quality of my work. Recognition begs acknowlegement. Anything short of that would be a bore. And if she does not extend praises through voluntary means................ who needs her anyway.........then again, perhaps I do.

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Thu Nov 22, 2007 10:43 am

I haven't read your article yet, but I do look forward to it. "The Innocents" was my favorite movie as a child. Scared the pants off me when Quinn appeared at the window! I have the 'novelette'. I bought it in Salem, Massachusetts, which seemed to be an appropriate place to find it.

All of your writings have been very good and professional. When you're done with a piece, are you able to see if it's good or not? When I think I have a final draft, I set it aside for a few days. I pick it up again and read it fresh, and I can "see" it better.

I don't see much of a connection to the Borden murders. But it's certainly an appropriate submission to The Hatchet.

Are you looking for feedback on some particular area, or just the whole thing in general?

Haulover · Post by **Haulover** » Thu Nov 22, 2007 2:28 pm

i am behind on my hatchet reading. but as a matter of fact, i read turn of the screw very carefully two months ago. and i did get much more from it than i did when i was a teenager. james' point is to make it impossible for anyone to know which it is, i wondered if it's possible that it is so horrible that both are true. but the detail i noticed recently is that -- at regular intervals -- the narrative of the governness would strike me as actually irrational, it would be a statement or two -- and i would think -- she is defining everything in very inappropriate ways and this convoluted reasoning is not sound at all. i thought this was well done, this really came through.

ddnoe · Post by **ddnoe** » Sat Nov 24, 2007 7:29 am

augusta @ Thu Nov 22, 2007 11:43 am wrote:I haven't read your article yet, but I do look forward to it. "The Innocents" was my favorite movie as a child. Scared the pants off me when Quinn appeared at the window! I have the 'novelette'. I bought it in Salem, Massachusetts, which seemed to be an appropriate place to find it.

All of your writings have been very good and professional. When you're done with a piece, are you able to see if it's good or not?

(Denise) I'm never immediately certain. Sometimes I have a very positive vibe about a piece and I'll read it later and be dissatisfied by it. Other times I'll have an initially negative feeling and later have a higher opinion of it.

When I think I have a final draft, I set it aside for a few days. I pick it up again and read it fresh, and I can "see" it better.

(Denise) I often follow that practice as well.

I don't see much of a connection to the Borden murders. But it's certainly an appropriate submission to The Hatchet.

Are you looking for feedback on some particular area, or just the whole thing in general?

(Denise) The whole thing in general.

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Sat Nov 24, 2007 3:19 pm

Yes Augusta:

The reason you do not see the connection between TotS and Lizzie Borden is because there is none.

One could have easily made a comparisons between da Vinci's Madonna and pop star Madonna, but would that be fair?

After all, they are both women, and thus being so, a few may broker the argument that both are "MYSTERIES, (at least to us single men) thus both taken from the same pod-------they are both Madonnas.....we have the "saintly Madonna" and the "sinning Madonna" etc. Comparisons can go on and on, but comparisons are not similarities and it would be wrong, as it was in ddnoe's piece, to make such a parallel. (between Turn of the Screw and Lizzie, not between Lizzie and Madonna, though I suppose we can go there.)

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The comparison in this review is used as a WRITERS IMPLEMENT to BAIT or SNARE the immediate audience, Hatchet readers. Sort of like the "HOOK" used in pop music lyrics. Used on a regular basis and recognized by writers as a dangling carrot. The trick is to let the reader have the carrot.

In this case the writers tool is a hammer where a needle and thread should be used, to weave the Lizzie mystery in and out of the narrative instead of hammering Lizzie Borden into the piece. But there is no weaving or comparing. Thus, after the first few paragraphs the Lizzie connection quickly looses it's adhesion.

From what I read in posts above it appears that the tawdry decoy lures the reader nowhere and adds to only confuse and disappoint many who think there is more to read about Lizzie Borden.

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An opening paragraph in any narrative, a canny one anyway, should initiated or set the tone for the entire narrative. The introduction here does not do that and only adds to let the reader down.

This writers piece could have been improved without the referral to Lizzie Borden, who has nothing to do with it----- and for some of us who do not WORSHIP LIZZIE BORDEN, the assumption can be made that it only adds to soil an excellent review. One can go as far as to say it was an essayists error in use.

A narrative should stand on it's own merits in attracting and captivating the reader to read on without gimcrackery that does not apply.

As Augusta mentions above, it is "certainly an appropriate submission to the Hatchet", or dare I say the Strand or Esquire Magazines.

In summary, ddnoe's piece is one that is marred only by the comparison made between "Turn of the Screw" and Lizzie Borden, and is one written by a very capable and somewhat exceptional writer who appears to lack the confidence in her work or faith and conviction in her abilities; which this writer finds unwarranted and confusing----- as I am sure some others on this forum do.

At the very least the request made by the author in this thread, and others, lends to it.

ddnoe · Post by **ddnoe** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 4:24 am

mbhenty @ Sat Nov 24, 2007 4:19 pm wrote:Yes Augusta:

The reason you do not see the connection between TotS and Lizzie Borden is because there is none. >>

(Denise) They are both mysteries. They are both from the Victorian era and heavily associated with it.

One could have easily made a comparisons between da Vinci's Madonna and pop star Madonna, but would that be fair?

(Denise) Actually, to me that sounds like a clever idea!

After all, they are both women, and thus being so, a few may broker the argument that both are "MYSTERIES, (at least to us single men) thus both taken from the same pod-------they are both Madonnas.....we have the "saintly Madonna" and the "sinning Madonna" etc. Comparisons can go on and on, but comparisons are not similarities and it would be wrong, as it was in ddnoe's piece, to make such a parallel. (between Turn of the Screw and Lizzie, not between Lizzie and Madonna, though I suppose we can go there.)

(Denise) I'm sorry you disliked. Yes, I knew it was stretching things a bit. However, just about anything Victorian is fair game for "The Hatchet" and I had to put in a Lizzie hook to Whittle on this one.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The comparison in this review is used as a WRITERS IMPLEMENT to BAIT or SNARE the immediate audience, Hatchet readers. Sort of like the "HOOK" used in pop music lyrics. Used on a regular basis and recognized by writers as a dangling carrot. The trick is to let the reader have the carrot.

(Denise) Yes! You've found me out!

In this case the writers tool is a hammer where a needle and thread should be used, to weave the Lizzie mystery in and out of the narrative instead of hammering Lizzie Borden into the piece. But there is no weaving or comparing. Thus, after the first few paragraphs the Lizzie connection quickly looses it's adhesion.

From what I read in posts above it appears that the tawdry decoy lures the reader nowhere and adds to only confuse and disappoint many who think there is more to read about Lizzie Borden.

(Denise) This may be a flaw in my piece. I'm sorry about it if I disappointed and confused readers. Yes, this Whittling was primarily about The Turn of the Screw.

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An opening paragraph in any narrative, a canny one anyway, should initiated or set the tone for the entire narrative. The introduction here does not do that and only adds to let the reader down.

(Denise) Unfortunately, you may be correct.

This writers piece could have been improved without the referral to Lizzie Borden, who has nothing to do with it----- and for some of us who do not WORSHIP LIZZIE BORDEN, the assumption can be made that it only adds to soil an excellent review. One can go as far as to say it was an essayists error in use.

(Denise) Thank you for seeing my essay as "an excellent review."

A narrative should stand on it's own merits in attracting and captivating the reader to read on without gimcrackery that does not apply.

As Augusta mentions above, it is "certainly an appropriate submission to the Hatchet", or dare I say the Strand or Esquire Magazines.

In summary, ddnoe's piece is one that is marred only by the comparison made between "Turn of the Screw" and Lizzie Borden, and is one written by a very capable and somewhat exceptional writer who appears to lack the confidence in her work or faith and conviction in her abilities; which this writer finds unwarranted and confusing----- as I am sure some others on this forum do.

At the very least the request made by the author in this thread, and others, lends to it. >>

(Denise) I seek to improve my writing. Therefore, I want to know what others think of it.

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 12:48 pm

Thanks ddnoe.

Your little smiley faces say lots. Wish the last one was a mad face instead of a sad face.

I often ask friends about my poetry after they have read it. They always say nice things. I then dismiss it all, subjectively you see. Of course I find their opinion of great worth, but the value has nothing to do with my writing and all to do with friendship. They are not writers or critics, just friends. Like many here on the forum.

Then there is this local published poet who has published 5 books on poetry, I have been to a couple of her signings and corresponded with her on this machine. I use to send her some of my poetry. I have stopped because she is so harsh and critical------criticizes my choice of words, constantly displays confusion to my stanzas etc. Who does she think she is?

Well in time I find she is being critical, not cruel. I truly appreciate her opinion and honesty and highly respect her viewpoint. We have become friends.

But, that being said, and after studying her poetry, I know what to send her. I only send her my superficial or somewhat cursory poetry only. The poetry I find dear I do not, it is to painful. Again, that is my loss. And in my arrogance I must add, I have never made any changes she suggested. But, to be fair, poetry and narratives are totally different literary animals.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My confusion by your approach here on the fourm is sincere and/or even critical, but not meant to be cruel as some may take it. Though, I would be a lair if I did not admit to striving to be critical and extract some response here.

On the other hand, the other thread which I directed to Augusta was somewhat uncalled for. Though done in jest, and directed mostly at Augusta, who always leaves very long posts, and like myself always has lots to say on a topic, it was perhaps at best crude and at worse cruel. As I have done with Augusta, for that I apologize.

As some would probably say, it's all about me, consider the sorce, or just read his signature at the bottom of his posts. All in all, you must admit it is the most feedback and criticism you have ever received on this forum, even if it holds no value. And for those who feel that way or are confused by my posts, I understand. As friends who know me often say, he's arrogant but he doesn't mean anything by it.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 3:30 pm

Well, I still say what I said before. I had not one critisism of this new piece of Denise's- in fact when I first read it I thought it was so well done I wondered for a sec if it had been previously published.
And it was submitted early too.
To be early to a deadline and have such quality, makes the heartstrings sing of any editor, assistant or not!

ddnoe · Post by **ddnoe** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 7:16 pm

mbhenty @ Sat Dec 01, 2007 1:48 pm wrote:

Thanks ddnoe.

(Denise) You're welcome.

Your little smiley faces say lots. Wish the last one was a mad face instead of a sad face.

(Denise) I'm not at all mad at you. I asked for feedback and you responded. Some of your critcisms were well-taken.

I often ask friends about my poetry after they have read it. They always say nice things. I then dismiss it all, subjectively you see. Of course I find their opinion of great worth, but the value has nothing to do with my writing and all to do with friendship. They are not writers or critics, just friends. Like many here on the forum.

Then there is this local published poet who has published 5 books on poetry, I have been to a couple of her signings and corresponded with her on this machine. I use to send her some of my poetry. I have stopped because she is so harsh and critical------criticizes my choice of words, constantly displays confusion to my stanzas etc. Who does she think she is?

Well in time I find she is being critical, not cruel. I truly appreciate her opinion and honesty and highly respect her viewpoint. We have become friends.

But, that being said, and after studying her poetry, I know what to send her. I only send her my superficial or somewhat cursory poetry only. The poetry I find dear I do not, it is to painful. Again, that is my loss. And in my arrogance I must add, I have never made any changes she suggested. But, to be fair, poetry and narratives are totally different literary animals.

(Denise) Yes, they are.

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My confusion by your approach here on the fourm is sincere and/or even critical, but not meant to be cruel as some may take it.

(Denise) I don't take it as cruel. Some feedback is going to be negative.

Though, I would be a lair if I did not admit to striving to be critical and extract some response here.

On the other hand, the other thread which I directed to Augusta was somewhat uncalled for. Though done in jest, and directed mostly at Augusta, who always leaves very long posts, and like myself always has lots to say on a topic, it was perhaps at best crude and at worse cruel. As I have done with Augusta, for that I apologize.

As some would probably say, it's all about me, consider the sorce, or just read his signature at the bottom of his posts. All in all, you must admit it is the most feedback and criticism you have ever received on this forum, even if it holds no value.

(Denise) It does have value.

And for those who feel that way or are confused by my posts, I understand. As friends who know me often say, he's arrogant but he doesn't mean anything by it.

(Denise) Thank you for your feeback.

ddnoe · Post by **ddnoe** » Sat Dec 01, 2007 7:17 pm

Kat @ Sat Dec 01, 2007 4:30 pm wrote:Well, I still say what I said before. I had not one critisism of this new piece of Denise's- in fact when I first read it I thought it was so well done I wondered for a sec if it had been previously published.
And it was submitted early too.
To be early to a deadline and have such quality, makes the heartstrings sing of any editor, assistant or not!

(Denise) Thank you very, very much!