What do you think is a Lie?

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Fri Dec 28, 2007 11:38 am

There are some things in the Borden case that I just personally don't believe. Like I don't believe Little Abby's story of Lizzie killing Abby's cat, especially not in the manner she says.

I don't believe Nellie McHenry interviewed Bridget shortly after the murders. I think Nellie made it up.

I don't believe in George Whitehead's statements to the press after the murders, saying he had a long talk with Lizzie (she hated him!). I don't know much about George W's personality. I can't guess if I think he made up what he told the reporter, or if the reporter made the whole thing up.

What are pieces of Bordenia that you think are falsehoods?

doug65oh · Post by **doug65oh** » Fri Dec 28, 2007 11:54 am

augusta, are you confusing George Whitehead with Hiram Harrington, perhaps? It was Harrington who claimed in the press to have had the "long interview" with Lizzie within 36 hours of the murders, and Hiram whom Lizzie named (somewhat backhandedly in her inquest testimony) as a possible suspect in the murders, not George Whitehead.

The "long interivew" news source there should be the Fall River Daily Herald, 6th August 1892. ( http://lizzieandrewborden.com/Resources ... Herald.htm )

Tina-Kate · Post by **Tina-Kate** » Fri Dec 28, 2007 12:09 pm

I don't believe Lizzie murdered a cat---I said this somewhere else today too---I think perhaps she may have euthanized a sick cat & the story got twisted into kittie killing. I believe there was testimony (Witness Statements??) from a pharmacist who said Lizzie bought chloroform from him to kill a cat. Things were so "do it yourself" back then, I could see her having compassion for a dying animal in pain.

Nellie McHenry---consider the source. Nah. Falsehood. Ditto to all sundry Trickey-McHenry nonsense.

I don't believe Emma left after one big fight or any one reason, but gradually came to the decision to go out on her own & have the life she wanted for herself.

I don't believe much of anything in Lizzie's Inquest testimony.

I don't believe JVM was consciously involved in the murders in any way.

I don't believe Lizzie told Alice much truth on her visit Wed Aug 3rd. Extravaganza of falsehoods & truth-stretching.

I don't believe Andrew ran upstairs & greeted Lizzie excitedly & pressed her hand (story Lizzie told Mary Brigham) upon her return from Europe.

I don't believe the "Emma, you have given me away" story was a lie told by Hannah Reagan...I believe HR got the wrong end of the stick.

I don't believe the Borden house was broken into during the summer of '91.

I don't believe the broken hatchet handle was in the box.

I don't believe Lizzie went looking for lead for sinkers or to fix a screen or anything else---likewise with the pears she claimed to eat.

Eeesh...I could go on like this forever...

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Fri Dec 28, 2007 12:24 pm

True AUGUSTA: Many stories I believe are just not true. Myself, I do not believe the Lizzie cat stories.

In speaking to two experts on the Borden case, without mentioning any names, I was surprised that both believe that Lizzie probably did swing a cat over her head by the tale; that she was mean to animals.

Someone who is that mean to animals does not leave thousands to an animal shelter. Perhaps she did abhorrent and nasty things to animals when she was very, very young, out of ignorance not out of premeditated behavior. Small children have little understanding of what pain really is or that they are inflecting it at all.

I believe many of these stories are just antithetical folklore, having been repeated so many times that in time it takes on a canvas of truth.

On the other hand, if Lizzie was truly a deranged individual, then perhaps she was mean to animals; to which we may conclude that she had serious involvement in the murder of her parents.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Fri Dec 28, 2007 5:08 pm

I do not believe Lizzie was ever up in the barn looking for lead, or anything else for that matter.

I do not believe Emma had any guilty knowledge of the murders. I think she left the house because things were very heated at home, and she wanted away from the situation.

I don't believe Uncle John had any guilty knowledge of the murders. But I do think he figured it out afterward.

I don't believe Bridget was paid off to keep any secrets.

I do not believe that Lizzie was sick at all that week.

I do not believe the bloody towels in that pail were menstrual napkins.

I do not think Lizzie "heard Abby come in."

I do not think Andrew giving Abby the half house was the main reason for the falling out with the girls. I think it was just the straw that broke the camels back so to speak.

etc...I could go on and on as well.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Fri Dec 28, 2007 6:39 pm

I don't believe Lizzie was innocent.

DWilly · Post by **DWilly** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 11:23 am

I don't put much stock in Lizzie's Inquest Testimony either or things she told Alice the night before the murders.

I don't believe parts of Bridget's testimony either.

I don't believe the McHenry-Trickey story.

I don't believe Ruby Cameron's story.

I don't believe the cat story. Wasn't there some crazy horse story too?

I don't believe that ridiculous story about Lizzie taking the underwear off of a dead woman story.

I don't believe a lot of the post-Lizzie trial stories that people told about her.

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 11:36 am

Well ... I don't believe George Whitehead gave a condensed version of his long talk with Lizzie after the murders to the press - because it was not George Whitehead at all. Doughoh, of course, is right. I got George mixed up with Hiram Harrington.

Hiram Harrington was Andrew's brother-in-law, who married Andrew's sister, Lurana. Andrew disliked him because Hiram was not working hard enough or going in to the right type of business to give his sister a better standard of living.

If Lizzie said Hiram might have done it, it makes no sense because Hiram was not going to profit from the murders in any way. So, I don't believe Hiram Harrington was the perp.

It's interesting that Allen and Tina-Kate don't think Morse was involved! That's a different take on it for me. I sure think he was and that he got his butcher friend to do it. I'll have fun mulling over that possibility (that he was not involved).

Many have said, not referring to our forum, that Morse got to the Bordens on August 3, just popped in, and did it because he knew the murders were going to be committed that day. Now I don't believe that. Morse had a letter from Andrew or to Andrew in his pocket that he had with him on the witness stand that it was agreed between them that Morse would come - no date set. And he was known for just dropping by, expecting to spend the night.

I don't believe Emma gave that interview to the Boston Post in 1913. It reads like it was made up, and Emma was so retisent.

I don't totally believe we are looking at the same Bridget Sullivan when we look to Anaconda, Montana. Other than the librarian story, and the story of an almost-deathbed-confession, I think it could easily be one of those stories that got handed down ... and down ... and down. I would like to see more proof that it was "our" Bridget.

I don't believe the silver cup that Mr. Rebello shows in his book to be "our Lizzie" and "our" Abby. I have seen Abby's name spelled 'Abbie', like the silver cup. But much more often I've seen it "Abby", and I have seen (and have a copy of) her signature, where she herself spells it "Abby". Kat did tell my why she votes for "Abbie" and it was a good reason and made sense but, dang it, I can't remember what she said.

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 3:41 pm

I never did believe the story of Lizzie killing Abbys cat. That is too out of charcter, even for Lizzie. At any rate, I believe, if she did kill Abbys cat, it might have been putting rat poison in the cats food, or something like that.

As for talking with George Whitehead, be she liked him or hated him. I think Lizzie was very particular with whom she talked too, especially at this time.

So, neither one of those two people I believe, their stories just don't make sense, or fit within Lizzies profile of what she was like.

FairhavenGuy · Post by **FairhavenGuy** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 4:01 pm

Like Tina-Kate, I cannot believe much of what Lizzie said at the inquest. Major changes in her story happen throughout that tesimony.

I think Lizzie may have been in the barn that morning and her story about the iron/tin/lead was an excuse to cover her in case someone like Mrs. Churchill had seen her.

To me it's interesting that the first story, as related by Mrs. Churchill, Dr. Bowen and Alice Russell involved iron. Iron is much too weapon-like, though, so Lizzie later claimed to be looking for lead, a very soft metal that cannot be sharpened. . .

Dr. Bowen seems to have, perhaps, twisted a few things to cover his incompetence on the scene that morning. How a medical man could think at first that Mrs. Borden had died of fright is mind boggling.

bob_m_ryan · Post by **bob_m_ryan** » Sat Dec 29, 2007 5:52 pm

Hi Folks -- This is my first post. I've read quite a bit of the material in the archives.

The thing that is the most unbelieveable to me is that the police ever had the murder weapon.

Bob

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 12:20 am

Welcome to the forum, Bob!

That is probably the stickiest wicket in the entire Borden case; what happened to the hatchet? We've speculated that Lizzie only needed to keep it one or two steps ahead of the investigators, assuming Lizzie was guilty, of course. She might have broken off the handle and burned it in the stove. The head by itself would be far easier to conceal. It may have been concealed in a pail of feminine napkins until the night of the murders and retrieved on a trip Lizzie made to the cellar on her own. From there, the trail runs cold.

bob_m_ryan · Post by **bob_m_ryan** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 11:55 am

Yes, that second trip to the cellar is defintely suspicous. Lizbeth must have been up to something that time.

Bob

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 1:03 pm

Hi Bob, Welcome to the forum. Hope you enjoy it here.

I do not believe there was a note.
I do not think Lizzie "heard Abby come in."
I do not believe Lizzie was innocent.
I do not believe Emma was innocent.
I do not believe the bloody towels in the pail were menstrual napkins.
I do not believe William S. Borden was Andrew's illegitimate son.
I do not believe William S. Borden killed Abby and Andrew.
I do not believe Lizzie was ever up in the barn looking for lead or tin.

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 1:03 pm

welcome to the forum bob. Yup that is kind of wierd thing that the cops never found the weapon.

shakiboo · Post by **shakiboo** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 1:38 pm

Welcome Bob, Hope you find it as interesting and informative as I have!! 1. I don't believe everyone that had knowledge of that day came forward. 2. I don't believe Lizzie was up in the barn, but believe she went to the barn.

bob_m_ryan · Post by **bob_m_ryan** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 6:01 pm

Snokkums -- I got your private message but am unable to reply because I am a 'newbie'. I am in a suburb of Detroit.

Bob

Stefani · Post by **Stefani** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 6:24 pm

Bob_m_ryan:

viewtopic.php?t=2235

I hope this answers your question!

Smudgeman · Post by **Smudgeman** » Sun Dec 30, 2007 8:00 pm

I don't believe there was ever a note
I don't believe Lizzie was ever in the barn
I don't believe Lizzie was sick that week
I don't believe Uncle John had anything to do with the murders
and I don't believe Emma was totally innocent
I also don't believe a word from Lizzie Borden's mouth