I know I keep harpingon this, but in all my reading of books and looking at websites, i keep cominbg across one thing. It was a brutal,grusome crime. Now wheres the blood?
Is it a possibility that Lizzie and bridget did an excellant cleaning job? And in doing that, it might explain the rumor of Emma and Lizzie paying off Bridget, even to the extent of being able to buy a large farm back in Ireland. As I said, the excellant cleaning job and lack of blood might have given way to that rumor.
I know I keep harping on this: what about the blood?
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snokkums
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I know I keep harping on this: what about the blood?
Suicide is painless It brings on many changes and I will take my leave when I please.
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Kat
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I had transcribed Dr. Dolan's blood testimony and it was put on the website.
http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Crime ... idence.htm
But I think since then I've found more blood evidence described- even by Morse- as to what he saw that day- and there seems to be more blood than I had thought all along.
No blood trail was found tho, room to room, and none on Lizzie- but maybe more blood around the bodies. We should gather more info I think.
http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Crime ... idence.htm
But I think since then I've found more blood evidence described- even by Morse- as to what he saw that day- and there seems to be more blood than I had thought all along.
No blood trail was found tho, room to room, and none on Lizzie- but maybe more blood around the bodies. We should gather more info I think.
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Kat
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Also- to add here- since we don't See it, it becomes less real or obvious. But if we had seen it, it might look like a lot. Describing the blood and seeing the blood might be very different realities. It's funny I was just thinking about this lately: after so many Court TV shows where they show the blood and the body, and then hearing about it on the witness stand.
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Yooper
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Exactly my point, we don't see the blood. How can we make a determination about more or less? More or less than what, exactly? If we had actually seen the blood spatter, it might also be less than we thought, as well as possibly more. What is the premise? On what experience do we base an expectation? Based upon what do we expect anything?
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Kat
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Well if we collect the blood information we might get a better idea. Someone might volunteer to gather up all that info. (I thought I had, but was mostly concentrating on Dolan and Wood.)
I have drawn pictures of what had been described but they are amateurish- stick figures and suchlike, with dots of red ink.
From Jenning's notes, Hip-bath Collection, Proceedings :
d. Crowther John--Reporter on News got blood on his shoes while going around house, says Dr. Foley did too.
Dr. Dolan said he got some on his pantaloons (T193)- and there was bloody water found in the basin in the guest room- so there was blood being taken room to room as far as I can tell. Also it was asked specifically if the doctor washed his hands after touching Mrs. Borden's wounds, and before he handled anything else. A few people touched Abbie early on- they should have gotten blood on them, too.
I have drawn pictures of what had been described but they are amateurish- stick figures and suchlike, with dots of red ink.
From Jenning's notes, Hip-bath Collection, Proceedings :
d. Crowther John--Reporter on News got blood on his shoes while going around house, says Dr. Foley did too.
Dr. Dolan said he got some on his pantaloons (T193)- and there was bloody water found in the basin in the guest room- so there was blood being taken room to room as far as I can tell. Also it was asked specifically if the doctor washed his hands after touching Mrs. Borden's wounds, and before he handled anything else. A few people touched Abbie early on- they should have gotten blood on them, too.
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Yooper
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A drawing of the murder scenes showing blood spatter might be helpful, but only if it is to scale, showing the blood droplets sized correctly with respect to the rest of the scene. The Borden murders would be a good test case upon which to base further expectations for blood patterns during a hatchet murder. Then we have a comparison from which to draw conclusions such as more or less.
The spatter patterns could also be used to determine vector values, distance and direction, from which we might determine the arc of swing. Voids in the pattern would indicate if the murderer was likely to have had any blood on them. If all of the spatter was away from where the arc indicates the murderer stood, with none immediately around where the murderer's feet would have been, then maybe the murderer would have remained free of blood spatter.
About the only conclusion I can draw from what I've read about the blood spatter is that Andrew's blood was consistent with his lying on the couch, while Abby's blood was consistent with her lying on the floor while the hatchet was used.
The spatter patterns could also be used to determine vector values, distance and direction, from which we might determine the arc of swing. Voids in the pattern would indicate if the murderer was likely to have had any blood on them. If all of the spatter was away from where the arc indicates the murderer stood, with none immediately around where the murderer's feet would have been, then maybe the murderer would have remained free of blood spatter.
About the only conclusion I can draw from what I've read about the blood spatter is that Andrew's blood was consistent with his lying on the couch, while Abby's blood was consistent with her lying on the floor while the hatchet was used.
To do is to be. ~Socrates
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Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
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Yooper
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Look, there is a logical premise upon which to base the idea that the murderer might have blood on them. The blood was not confined to the immediate proximity of the bodies, some was found a distance from the bodies, and it had to have gotten there with some help, it couldn't have gotten there by itself. This makes it possible, not probable, that the murderer might have blood on them. I just don't think we can jump to the conclusion that the murderer must have blood on them.
To do is to be. ~Socrates
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
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chuckciao
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Regarding the blood, has a forensic specialist, i.e. Dr. Henry Lee, ever commented on the blood evidence. Considering the fact that we know the position of the victims during the attacks, and the position of the weapon blows, it should be relatively easy for a specialist to give an accurate analysis of the blood spatter, etc.
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Kat
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I've personally been disappointed in the modern day analysis of the forensics in this case. They seem to start with a premise and then explain what they see in the context of that. Even in the video Stef and I were in- one of the newest ones, had Tom Lange, and he was not very conversant with the case- some of us here are actually more expert than these big names like Lee or Lange or Starrs or Douglas. I don't think they have the time.
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chuckciao
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I agree totally with your assessment of the program in which Tom Lange appeared to apply modern day forensics to the case. Where ever did they come up with that shawl (with the cut marks) supposidly worn by Abby? In all of the photos of her lying on the floor, she does not appear to be wearing anything over her dress. Also, what were they trying to prove by finding blood stains in the ceiling of the basement below the sofa where Andrew was killed? To me, it only verified that blood stains from 1892 could still exist, nothing more.
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Kat
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That's true- I think they were more surprised to find that it might be possible to still detect blood through the use of Luminol after over 100 years. I bet that's the only thing they were interested in, other than that dollhouse.
But we still don't know if that was 100 year-old blood that glowed anyway!
It was thought that the boards had been turned- to save the expense of new wood to replace them, when they rented out the place after the girls moved out. That would make the ceiling, in the middle cellar room, the wood Andrew bled upon.
But we still don't know if that was 100 year-old blood that glowed anyway!
It was thought that the boards had been turned- to save the expense of new wood to replace them, when they rented out the place after the girls moved out. That would make the ceiling, in the middle cellar room, the wood Andrew bled upon.
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Allen
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A System of Legal Medicine by Allan McLane Hamilton and Edwin Lawrence Godkin published in 1894.
Page 248:
"Cut or incised wounds are those made by an instrument possessing an edge which will divide the integument as it is drawn across or pushed into it, as in stabs made with knives. The instrument may be a piece of glass, tin, or sheet metal, and the wound resulting may be a cut, although, as a general rule, in homicidal wounding axes, hatchets, swords, knives, and such like weapons are used. All these have cutting edges, and make wounds very similar in appearance. When an axe or hatchet is used, while the edge cuts, at the same time the weapon delivers a blow, and to the cut may be added the breaking of bone, or, if the weapon be dull, the appearance of a lacerated or torn wound rather than one incised. As in contused wounds, so in cut wounds: if the wound has been made during life and sufficient time given for reparation process to begin,the telling of when it was inflicted, or a fairly approximate period is not so difficult a matter. If signs of the inflammatory healing process are present, or if adhesion of part of the wound has taken place, the surrounding tissues a little swollen, or if pus be found, we know the wound was made during life. But the wound may be a mortal one, and the victim pass instantly from life to death. Here, then is a condition with other phenomena, and one requiring careful examination to give a definite statement upon. The wound being a cut, if made upon a living body as a general rule it presents characteristics of gaping, the skin being a little everted, showing deeper tissues, while blood is freely poured forth, especially if an artery has been wounded, and clots of blood are found lying in the cut. The skin is highly elastic, and when severed while alive, draws away from the line of incision; and if the cut is traverse to muscular fiber, more gaping is noticed, on account of the contraction of the divided muscles, than when the wound is in the line of the muscle. In a traverse cut is found not only more gaping, but more bleeding takes place than when the cut is longitudinal. The blood, being fresh, will coagulate where it falls, and if an artery has been involved with a chance to discharge blood at it spurts, traces of this sort of bleeding will be seen on the clothes or body, and may also be found on walls, floor, furniture, or other articles within reach of the spurting vessel. "
Page 249:
" A wound made immediately after death will present the same appearance as a wound made before, but the hemmorage will be different, and, unless some large vein has been cut, not so copious.We may even find coagula in the wound and the gaping and evected edges if the infliction has been done before the elasticity of the skin is lost: but bleeding is venous and follows the laws of gravity, does not spread so widely as when the heart is still acted, even if it gave but one or two beats: and this fact of itself calls for most careful search. While it is possible, as in the case quoted by Casper, that a mortal wound may present only the appearance of one made on the dead, if the wound has been made on the body has been established for half an hour or more and the death can be attributed to another cause, such as a blow upon the head, the question of the wound having been made on the living would properly be decided in the negative, the majority of the evidence pointing to another cause of death, and all the appearances of the cut being those of wounds on the cadaver.Still doubt may be raised, for the wound to the head might be such as could be received by the body falling: and as the fall would be simultaneous with the wound and with the death, the question of which injury took life would be one of difficulty."
Page 248:
"Cut or incised wounds are those made by an instrument possessing an edge which will divide the integument as it is drawn across or pushed into it, as in stabs made with knives. The instrument may be a piece of glass, tin, or sheet metal, and the wound resulting may be a cut, although, as a general rule, in homicidal wounding axes, hatchets, swords, knives, and such like weapons are used. All these have cutting edges, and make wounds very similar in appearance. When an axe or hatchet is used, while the edge cuts, at the same time the weapon delivers a blow, and to the cut may be added the breaking of bone, or, if the weapon be dull, the appearance of a lacerated or torn wound rather than one incised. As in contused wounds, so in cut wounds: if the wound has been made during life and sufficient time given for reparation process to begin,the telling of when it was inflicted, or a fairly approximate period is not so difficult a matter. If signs of the inflammatory healing process are present, or if adhesion of part of the wound has taken place, the surrounding tissues a little swollen, or if pus be found, we know the wound was made during life. But the wound may be a mortal one, and the victim pass instantly from life to death. Here, then is a condition with other phenomena, and one requiring careful examination to give a definite statement upon. The wound being a cut, if made upon a living body as a general rule it presents characteristics of gaping, the skin being a little everted, showing deeper tissues, while blood is freely poured forth, especially if an artery has been wounded, and clots of blood are found lying in the cut. The skin is highly elastic, and when severed while alive, draws away from the line of incision; and if the cut is traverse to muscular fiber, more gaping is noticed, on account of the contraction of the divided muscles, than when the wound is in the line of the muscle. In a traverse cut is found not only more gaping, but more bleeding takes place than when the cut is longitudinal. The blood, being fresh, will coagulate where it falls, and if an artery has been involved with a chance to discharge blood at it spurts, traces of this sort of bleeding will be seen on the clothes or body, and may also be found on walls, floor, furniture, or other articles within reach of the spurting vessel. "
Page 249:
" A wound made immediately after death will present the same appearance as a wound made before, but the hemmorage will be different, and, unless some large vein has been cut, not so copious.We may even find coagula in the wound and the gaping and evected edges if the infliction has been done before the elasticity of the skin is lost: but bleeding is venous and follows the laws of gravity, does not spread so widely as when the heart is still acted, even if it gave but one or two beats: and this fact of itself calls for most careful search. While it is possible, as in the case quoted by Casper, that a mortal wound may present only the appearance of one made on the dead, if the wound has been made on the body has been established for half an hour or more and the death can be attributed to another cause, such as a blow upon the head, the question of the wound having been made on the living would properly be decided in the negative, the majority of the evidence pointing to another cause of death, and all the appearances of the cut being those of wounds on the cadaver.Still doubt may be raised, for the wound to the head might be such as could be received by the body falling: and as the fall would be simultaneous with the wound and with the death, the question of which injury took life would be one of difficulty."
"He who cannot put his thoughts on ice should not enter into the head of dispute." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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Kat
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Thanks for all that Missy!
This guy needs an edit! This sentence is way too long and tends to give me cross-eyes!
While it is possible, as in the case quoted by Casper, that a mortal wound may present only the appearance of one made on the dead, if the wound has been made on the body has been established for half an hour or more and the death can be attributed to another cause, such as a blow upon the head, the question of the wound having been made on the living would properly be decided in the negative, the majority of the evidence pointing to another cause of death, and all the appearances of the cut being those of wounds on the cadaver.
--So, what exactly is the definition of an incised wound? Sue Grafton led me astray years ago on that one!
This guy needs an edit! This sentence is way too long and tends to give me cross-eyes!
While it is possible, as in the case quoted by Casper, that a mortal wound may present only the appearance of one made on the dead, if the wound has been made on the body has been established for half an hour or more and the death can be attributed to another cause, such as a blow upon the head, the question of the wound having been made on the living would properly be decided in the negative, the majority of the evidence pointing to another cause of death, and all the appearances of the cut being those of wounds on the cadaver.
--So, what exactly is the definition of an incised wound? Sue Grafton led me astray years ago on that one!
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Kat
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chuckciao, there was a bloody handkerchief found by Abbie's body. At first it was seen near her head, then later described as near her feet. It led investigators to ask if Abbie was seen wearing a kerchief on her head as she did housework that morning. The answer was no- she had a feather duster- so the handkerchief could be a clue. I wish we knew more about that item- like whether it was established that it was Andrew's old cast-off, and known to be used by Abbie.
But I suppose if Bridget can't say what dress Lizzie had on that morning, she might not know Andrew's handkerchief from any other's.
But I suppose if Bridget can't say what dress Lizzie had on that morning, she might not know Andrew's handkerchief from any other's.
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Tina-Kate
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Just to throw a rock in the road here---some time ago, didn't we all come to the conclusion there were TWO handkerchiefs? The white one that seemed to move with the body & another patterned one that was determined to be in Abby's hair?
“I am innocent. I leave it to my counsel to speak for me.”
—Lizzie A. Borden, June 20, 1893
—Lizzie A. Borden, June 20, 1893
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chuckciao
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Thanks Kat,Kat @ Thu Jan 10, 2008 12:21 am wrote:chuckciao, there was a bloody handkerchief found by Abbie's body. At first it was seen near her head, then later described as near her feet. It led investigators to ask if Abbie was seen wearing a kerchief on her head as she did housework that morning. The answer was no- she had a feather duster- so the handkerchief could be a clue. I wish we knew more about that item- like whether it was established that it was Andrew's old cast-off, and known to be used by Abbie.
But I suppose if Bridget can't say what dress Lizzie had on that morning, she might not know Andrew's handkerchief from any other's.
I distinctly saw them use a patterned shawl which was much much larger than a hankerchief. Imagine the gaul of those so called modern day crime investigators to offer up such a phoney piece of evidence. Just another example of how TV can distort true crime investigation.
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Yooper
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That may be the sound someone makes when they run themselves over, Kat! Clearly, if the death is attributed to another cause, then an otherwise mortal wound also on the deceased was not the cause of death! Especially if it appears to have been made on a corpse!Kat @ Thu Jan 10, 2008 1:16 am wrote:Thanks for all that Missy!
This guy needs an edit! This sentence is way too long and tends to give me cross-eyes!
While it is possible, as in the case quoted by Casper, that a mortal wound may present only the appearance of one made on the dead, if the wound has been made on the body has been established for half an hour or more and the death can be attributed to another cause, such as a blow upon the head, the question of the wound having been made on the living would properly be decided in the negative, the majority of the evidence pointing to another cause of death, and all the appearances of the cut being those of wounds on the cadaver.
--So, what exactly is the definition of an incised wound? Sue Grafton led me astray years ago on that one!
To my understanding, an incised wound is a cut and a contused wound is a bruise or crushing wound. A hatchet is capable of both simultaneously, first cutting, then crushing to the sides as it continues.
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Susan
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Hi Chuck, I can't find the particular thread it was on, but, we had discussed that silk handkerchief that was shown on that TV program. Someone had posted, I think it might have been Shelley, that the handkerchief had been bloodstained and had been cleaned by someone at the Fall River Historical Society. Whether because it was too grisly or to preserve the material, I'm not sure? Its to bad that it couldn't have been left as was found. And, I think there might have been something about hairpins being found in the handkerchief too? Hopefully whomever had posted about the hanky in the past will see this and can fill in the blanks.
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bob_m_ryan
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