Crowe Axe

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 11:29 am

That could be true too.

Maybe Lizzie told her that if Bridget said anything of her suspicions and/or involvement she (Lizzie) would make sure Bridget was accused of the crime. And Bridget, with no money, social standing or family to back her up, probably realized she'd better do what was expected of her or she would be in deep trouble.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 11:32 am

Shelley @ Thu Jan 10, 2008 11:23 am wrote:I always thought it significant that she LEFT the house after Mrs. Borden was found. John had to walk her over from across the street to fix breakfast Friday morning and then she packed up and fled. Yes, I think once she saw Abby on the floor, Bridget got the full measure!

Also keep in mind that Bridget RETURNED to the house twice. If she feared a murderer still present, why would she do that?

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 11:36 am

Angel @ Thu Jan 10, 2008 11:29 am wrote:That could be true too.

Maybe Lizzie told her that if Bridget said anything of her suspicions and/or involvement she (Lizzie) would make sure Bridget was accused of the crime. And Bridget, with no money, social standing or family to back her up, probably realized she'd better do what was expected of her or she would be in deep trouble.

It may be that Bridget assumed as much after she had a moment for everything to register. She could have expressed a fear to Lizzie without any prompting, and Lizzie agreed to be magnanimous and go along with it! When Bridget realized that Abby was dead, too, the lights came on!

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 11:39 am

Yooper @ Thu Jan 10, 2008 11:32 am wrote:
Shelley @ Thu Jan 10, 2008 11:23 am wrote:I always thought it significant that she LEFT the house after Mrs. Borden was found. John had to walk her over from across the street to fix breakfast Friday morning and then she packed up and fled. Yes, I think once she saw Abby on the floor, Bridget got the full measure!
Also keep in mind that Bridget RETURNED to the house twice. If she feared a murderer still present, why would she do that?

I think no one was thinking clearly right after the crime. Even Mrs. Churchhill walked right in to the sitting room to see Andrews body after Lizzie told her what happened. If she had had time to think it through she probably would have realized someone could have still been lurking behind a door or somethng.
When my house was broken into two years ago I saw the front door standing open and the screen door ripped off. I could see into the living room where someone had trashed the place. I still kick myself to this day for being such an idiot- it never occurred to me someone might still be in the house- I waltzed right in there and went through the place to see
what damage had been done before I called the police.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 11:42 am

It could be that Lizzie's apparent lack of fear and her remaining in the house set the mood for the others.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 12:01 pm

Picture this, Lizzie tells Mrs. Churchill and Bridget to look for Abby upstairs, which absolutely implies the guest room at that time. Abby clearly isn't up there sewing! Bridget realizes at that moment who and where the murderer is, so she doesn't hesitate to top the stairs and enter the guest room by herself.

Cheryl · Post by **Cheryl** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 12:43 pm

I don't believe Bridget was involved in any way. When Andrew was found, it must have been sheer terror for her, realizing she was just upstairs, and having seen him just a short time ago. She may have realized very quickly that Lizzie could have had something to do with it.
And with THAT, she'd have to face the fact that HAD SHE NOT RETIRED TO HER ROOM WHEN SHE DID, she would have been butchered, too.
Remember, Lizzie had already tried to get her out of the house with the sale of cheap goods earlier. I think the realization that Bridget just dodged a bullet was what drove her terror.

As for running into the guest room, I always had the impression from things I've read that Bridget and Abby were friendly. If this is true, and there was a genuine relationship between the two, I don't think it would be unusual for her to run towards her.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 12:54 pm

. "I think the realization that Bridget just dodged a bullet was what drove her terror."

Bingo. Yep, I will give ole Lizzie some measure of compassion for not wanting to bump off the maid. In a way, Bridget staying in the house was a good thing for Lizzie. If Lizzie had been totally alone in the place, things would have looked even darker for her. The defense could have made much of that if they had needed to- that Lizzie must be innocent for who would murder their father with the maid there popping in at any time unexpectedly. Good thing Bridget stayed put upstairs.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 1:14 pm

I really don't believe Bridget was involved, either. I'm trying to show that it would have been easier to get her involved than we might think. It would be good to find something which proves a lack of involvement on her part, though. I have to a agree that her seemingly "normal" responses to everything tends to imply innocence. Bridget focused very soon upon informing Abby of Andrew's death, something which never occurred to Lizzie. In fact, Lizzie thought she would have to go to the cemetery herself to make arrangements for Andrew rather than Abby would go and make them. For some reason.

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 1:32 pm

It probably would have been extremely easy for Lizzie to strike the fear of god in Bridget. As soon as Bridget came downstairs and Lizzie told her that someone had killed her father, all she would have had to say to Bridget was something like "I would watch what I said if I were you---you were the only person in the house when father was murdered."

doug65oh · Post by **doug65oh** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 1:40 pm

Exactly, Angel - something along the lines of "Okay, here's the deal: Step carefully and mind what you say, or you will hang. Do you understand?"

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 1:40 pm

And, after that, if Bridget finally put the pieces together and realized Lizzie was guilty, her mind probably exploded with (1) the fear of Lizzie herself and (2) the trouble Lizzie could get her into if she wanted to. I guess I would have kept my mouth shut too and tried to get out of there as fast as I could.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 1:44 pm

That's right Angel, it might only have taken a hint. That isn't something Bridget would likely mention under questioning, either. Bridget contradicts Lizzie a few times, too. She heard Lizzie laugh upstairs when Lizzie said she was in the kitchen. She said that Lizzie told her that Abby had come home when Bridget offered to look for her. Bridget might not have done that, or at least changed her story a bit, if she felt obliged to cover for Lizzie.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 2:16 pm

Cheryl @ Thu Jan 10, 2008 9:43 am wrote:Angel, I too have always believed that Lizzie killed her father because he came home too early and she paniced.

If the crowe hatchet is indeed the murder weapon, I wonder if she ever wrestled with the idea of getting it off that roof and disposing of it in a more permanent way?

The gilt deposits found in both Abby's wounds and on the crowe hatchet is huge in my opinion. It's interesting how little attention this find received.

Was the gilt found in Abby's wounds or on her skull sometime later? There was an unsuccessful attempt during the trial to fit a recently purchased hatchet into the wounds to the skulls. It is possible that this is where the gilt came from if it was confined to just the skull. I think I remember this being the topic of another thread, if I'm not mistaken.

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 2:24 pm

Yes- I asked that question once too, but never got an answer. It seems important.

chuckciao · Post by **chuckciao** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 2:33 pm

Angel @ Thu Jan 10, 2008 1:24 pm wrote:Yes- I asked that question once too, but never got an answer. It seems important.

From my reading, Drs. Draper and Cheever discovered the gilt metal wedged in Abby's skull which they later verified with a microscope. I too agree that this was a significant discovery which seemed to be ignored by the prosecution for obvious reasons.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 3:04 pm

Let me don my "horn hat" and play devil's advocate for a moment, although some would argue that I don't need a hat for that! Since a hatchet purchased randomly did not fit the skull wounds, what are the odds of a hatchet, which did fit the skull wounds exactly, being found in the Borden house?

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:53 pm

I stand by my posts of June 2006 regarding the gilt. This copy of them includes some highlighted comments.

"The gilt found on Abby's skull is not mentioned until it is discovered by Dr. Draper (assisted by Dr. Cheever) in a letter to Mr. Knowlton, dated May 31, 1893. This is some 9 months after the crime.

To quote Draper's letter (HK203, page 211, Knowlton papers):

"... Perhaps this is not new information either to you or Dr. Dolan; it was new to me and seemed important enough to justify immediate conveyance to you. The shining deposit can be seen with the naked eye; it is plainly visible with the use of a lens, when once its situation is indicated."

According to the Evening Standard of Aug. 27, 1892, Dr. Dolan had the flesh removed from the skulls by boiling. So any doctor who examined the skulls from that time forward had the opportunity to notice the gilt.

Could someone else have experimented with Abby's skull during this long period by trying to fit different size hatchet blades into the cuts? If so they could have inadvertently left a trace of gilt."

In that same thread:

"Dr. Draper is questioned at the trial, vol. II, page 1048+:

"Q. Are you able to say whether that hatchet head (showing witness handleless hatchet head) is capable of making those wounds?
A. I believe it is.
Q. Have you attempted to fit that in the wounds?
A. I have seen the attempt made."

It would seem very logical to me that if they tried fitting the HH blade they tried others as well. They were after all trying to determine the size of the blade of the weapon used.

In any case the value of the gilt is compromised as evidence since it wasn't found earlier. It doesn't mean that it has no value but it does mean that another explanation can be offered for the presence of the gilt."

Nine months and nobody saw what Dr. Draper said could be seen with the naked eye? More than likely, at least to me, it wasn't there during this time. The whole thread is at:

viewtopic.php?t=1970&

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Thu Jan 10, 2008 11:29 pm

Thank you for the link Harry, that is the thread I was referring to. I agree, nine months is a long time to go unnoticed, especially if the shine can be seen without a magnifying glass. Don't forget that the skulls were boiled to remove the flesh, so why would the gilt remain after boiling?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 2:07 am

I'm just catching up here, sorry.

A comment was made that Mrs. Churchill went into the sitting room and saw Andrew's body- that only happened in the movie.
She was invited to look but declined. She wanted to remember Mr. Borden as she had seen him earlier that morning. Very smart of her! Once seen, that kind of thing can never be unseen.

shakiboo · Post by **shakiboo** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 2:57 pm

I agree Kat, and still can't for the life of me, understand why Dr. Bowen would even ask her if she wanted to go in to see Andrew!!

Bob Gutowski · Post by **Bob Gutowski** » Fri Jan 11, 2008 4:22 pm

"The world is not only stranger than we suppose, it is stranger than we can suppose."

I bet old Seabury was extemely shaken up. We don't know what his tone of voice was when he asked Addie to take a look. Lincoln enjoys making it seem almost comical, comparing Andrew's condition to a "new haircut."

For all we know, Dr. B. turned to Mrs. C. and said, in a quavery voice, "Addie, go in and see (the horror of what has happened to our friend and neighbor) Mr. Borden!"

I still have problems with Lizzie choosing to remain in the house after sending Bridget away for help. I suppose not a day goes by that I don't picture Abby being attacked in the guest room.