I was reading in the book "Goodbye Lizzie Borden" and found something odd.
"She rose from her chair passed thru a portion of the sitting room where her fathers body lay upon the couch, and went into her own bedroom. There she changed costumes donning a pink wrapper or house coat; she then allowed a select few to wait on her in her room."
My thing is first, why is she changing clothes in the middle of the day,and why are the police going to allow her to roam around the house (the murder scene) and go change clothes?
Why is someone going to change clothes in the middle of the day, unless she was trying to hide something?
What does everyone else think?
Suicide is painless It brings on many changes and I will take my leave when I please.
Back in those days one's attire was very important, even Alice after being summoned by a very upset Bridget, took the time to change out of her house dress first. I think Dr. Bowens wife changed also. So, I can see why Lizzie might have wanted to change into what she would have considered appropriate.
I didn't think that the police ever got a dress. Besides, why would the police let her roam around the crime scene go up to bedroom.
I know that attire back then was important, but it just seems odd to apubtly go change clothes. Usually they changed for meals and such.
Suicide is painless It brings on many changes and I will take my leave when I please.
Well, if she had a house dress on (one she wore to do cleaning or to just stay at home) might look alright to some one there, BUT she would feel like she shouldn't be wearing it with people coming into the house. It might have even made her feel at a disadvantage....and as far as her roaming around the house, apparently everyone there was free to just roam around. You'd think the first thing the police would have done, when they arrived was to do a complete search of the whole house....just in case some one was hiding there, not let a lady and the maid go off looking for some one.
Still, the authorities had a dress in court represented by Lizzie to be the dress she wore before changing to the wrapper. It could be looked at to determine what about it may have been inappropriate. If it was just a house dress and Lizzie thought it more appropriate to wear something fancier, not a problem. If it was too warm a garment and it made her uncomfortable, then why put it on to begin with? If it was an otherwise comfortable and suitably fancy garment, then "why" is a valid question.
To do is to be. ~Socrates
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
I sometimes change my clothes in the middle of the day. Either I will just change my mind about what I am dressed in. It was August when that happened & with the heat & no A.C. back then or fan maybe either Lizzie felt hot & dirty & sticky in her clothes Maybe with the heat she figured she smelled & just wanted to change into something eles.
I also think she might of had her period. Back then maxi Pads might of made her feel dirty & smelly(as not being very good at protection as they are now as they have improved over the years) maybe she even leaked some blood on her underpants/dress or
Maybe she wanted to change her clothes when the police came because they where "Important" people in town.
I think I understand what your trying to say, Yooper, but back in those days, a woman who thought herself a lady, was very particular about their appearance. Like the wearing of a hat, or even though it's 80 degrees, taking a shawl along. So it would be important for Lizzie to dress in something she felt was maybe fresher or dressier or just more comfortable. Like Abbie, they knew she wasn't dressed to go anywhere because of the type of dress she had on. So, maybe Lizzie just felt she should change. I don't think she tried to hide the fact, and didn't Alice go with her?
You're right Pam, you made a good point earlier about Alice changing before she went to the Borden house. The authorities had the dress Lizzie had given them, if they had thought it an important point, they could have made the comparison.
To do is to be. ~Socrates
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
Doesn't Lizzie state that "They thought I should" when asked why she went up and changed? I thought it odd she did go upstairs when Emma was not home yet, and Lizzie was at that point head of the house and in charge of getting things organized in the wake of the tragedy even though the police were there. She, as only living family member on the spot at that time, went off and left everything to the neighbors to run. Bridget did not get the luxury of changing into her housecoat, being cossetted with comfort and tea and toast, bromo-caffeine or visits from her clergyman and left to herself. Emma was later spared nothing and even had to mop up the blood. I find it very curious Lizzie high-tailed it right out of the line of fire right after Abby was found, and never actually defines who the "they" are who thought she should do so.
Lizzie, Inquest, Page 53 (10):
Q. What dress did you wear the day they were killed?
A. I had on a navy blue, sort of a bengaline or India silk skirt, with a navy blue blouse. In the afternoon they thought I had better change it. I put on a pink wrapper.
You're right Shelley, "they" thought she'd better change. I think John Morse was there by then, would Lizzie be avoiding him? Or was he outside most of the time?
To do is to be. ~Socrates
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
Yes, Morse was there by then, but stayed outside a good deal. As only male relative, one would think he would have tried to act in the fatherly role for Lizzie until Emma could get home, and take on some responsibility for his niece's welfare and kept a close monitoring of the undertaker, police, comings and goings, etc. No- I get the impression Morse wanted to distance himself from it ALL.
Well, considering the recent poor luck of Andrew, I'm not sure I'd be all that anxious to try to fill the fatherly shoes were I John Morse - would you?
I staid the night for shelter at a farm behind the mountains, with a mother and son - two "old-believers." They did all the talking...
- Robert Frost
Oh Doug! Too funny! But, thinking in a Victorian way and in that mindset, the proper Victorian GENTLEMAN would have stepped in to spare "the ladies"- says a lot about Morse.
Well, that's true. I see where you're coming from of course. But then too, it's important to factor in Morse's own statement at the preliminary hearing about being nervous in the house when he returned. Considering the fact of what he had seen, it's not necessarily unreasonable that he headed for the door and stayed out of the way. The ladies of the house were being sufficiently attended anyway.
I staid the night for shelter at a farm behind the mountains, with a mother and son - two "old-believers." They did all the talking...
- Robert Frost
Good point Doug, Morse was the only one to feel nervous about being in the house at the time, and it was probably good sense. He could also have taken the attitude, once he put two and two together, that "that's no lady, that's my niece!". Maybe he had her pegged early on!
To do is to be. ~Socrates
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
Well, no so much that, Yooper. Morse was the only one to admit how he felt and try to describe it under oath. If you recall, Dr. Bowen too was less than himself that morning and is so recorded and observed in the Witness Statements as being so. Bowen, however, later denied that under oath at New Bedford.
I staid the night for shelter at a farm behind the mountains, with a mother and son - two "old-believers." They did all the talking...
- Robert Frost
I just checked Mrs. Dr. Bowen's preliminary hearing testimony and her trial testimony and she said she was delayed a few seconds before going over after being summoned but she does not say she changed her dress.
It doesn't solve the case, but to set the record straight.
If Lizzie turned over the Bengaline Silk as what she had been wearing that day, I thought it was supposed that that was a pretty decent dress? A dress good enough to go out in?
Now the Bedford cord was not good enough. It was faded, the hem was *dirty* and too long.
Lizzie was supposedly wearing that Bedford cord outfit on Wednesday and ran upstairs when Dr. Bowen came to check on Andrew. I had supposed she did that then because she felt her morning dress was not fit to be seen in by the man.
Actually, if you think about it, (Lizzie didn't really roam the house) but she did go unescorted to her room thru the sitting room, and did go to her room and was coming out of Emma's room when Alice came in. So that could be construed as sort of *roaming* the front second floor.
If Lizzie had needed the chamber pot at any time, it might have called for the same motions as going up to change her dress as far as roaming is concerned. No one would have thought anything about it at the time.
To do is to be. ~Socrates
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
Wasn't Lizzie feeling poorly enough to need Dr.Bowen to come to her room and give her a bromide?
If she was feeling poorly, would it be unreasonable to remove her existing dress and, most probably, her whalebone corset, in favor of a wrapper which was less confining? If I were feeling faint or nauseous or extremely anxious, I would not want to be bound up and corseted.
And as an uncorseted woman, she probably did want to restrict those who visited her to a select few, since she was no longer dressed for the public eye.
Well that is true enough- a woman in a wrapper would only have been seen by intimate family members and close lady friends- or a doctor. Thing is , nobody told her to go upstairs and change. Lizzie will say "They thought I should" later but never defines who the "they" are. And we don't know that Lizzie demanded meds- we only know Dr. Bowen administered the bromo-caffeine.
I have always believed Lizzie ran upstairs on Wednesday because she was NOT sick and did not want to have to face Dr. Bowen who was surely astute enough to see that. Funny, if she was so sick, according to Lizzie, that she did not go out on Wednesday until the trip to see Alice, and too sick to eat dinner, it seems odd she did not want to see the doctor Wednesday morning and get some medication- which is why I have always believed Eli Bence.
This reminds me of the old film The Spiral Staircase, the action of which takes place in a single day early in the last century. The entire household (aside from the servants and bedridden Ethel Barrymore) changes for the evening, even though no company is expected and there is apparently no special occasion. Rhonda Fleming's character goes so far as to wear two elaborate hairstyles. She doesn't murder anyone though (in fact, she gets murdered). (Actually the "entire household" in question amounts to only three people, but it's enough to make it clear that this is the norm.)
A man ... wants to give his wife ... the interest in a little homestead where her sister lives. How wicked to have found fault with it. How petty to have found fault with it. (Hosea Knowlton in his closing argument.)
I bought myself The Spiral Staircase for Christmas- great film. Ethel Barymore is in top form! Yes, I expect those poor old Victorians would drop over in a dead faint if they had to live just one day in today's world. Between the pornography, language, nudity, scandals, cell phones.... they would last about 1 minute. I love the movie with Malcolm MacDowell as HG Wells and David Warner as Jack the Ripper in modern day San Francisco, I think it was called Time After Time. Frightening yes- but some funny moments as the two men adapt to 20th century women and social culture.
I think Lizzie did eat dinner on Wednesday. I remember it looked to me that she was trying to establish an alibi for a (possible) trip to the drugstore. I think she was at all meals on Wednesday. Bridget is the one to check for that info.
I've not ever really thought Lizzie was ill Tuesday night and Wednesday- maybe she was getting out of sight of Dr. Bowen because of her faded dress and that she didn't want him to see she was not sick, both?
Since her period ended Wednesday night, I also don't think that contributed to her *illness* if she was sick- even if she had complications each menses event: those would happen earlier in the cycle, near the start, I think- (I don't know for sure).
Q. Did you know that Mr. Morse was coming to dinner?
A. No sir, I knew nothing about him.
Q. Was he at dinner the day before?
A. Wednesday noon? I don't know. I had not seen him; I don't think he was.
81 (38)
Q. Were you at dinner?
A. I was in the house. I don't know whether I went down to dinner or not. I was not feeling well.
Q. Whether you ate dinner or not?
A. I don't remember.
Q. Do you remember who was at dinner the day before?
A. No sir, I don't remember, because I don't know whether I was down myself or not.
Q. Were you at tea Wednesday night?
A. I went down, but I think, I don't know, whether I had any tea or not.
Q. Did you sit down with the family?
A. I think I did, but I am not sure.
Q. Was Mr. Morse there?
A. No sir, I did not see him.
Q. Who were there to tea?
A. Nobody.
Q. The family were there, I suppose?
A. Yes, sir; I mean nobody but the family.
........
Q. When was the last time that you ate with the family, that you can swear to, before your mother was killed?
87 (44)
A. Well, I ate with them all day Tuesday, that is, what little we ate we sat down to the table; and I think I sat down to the table with them Wednesday night, but I am not sure.
Q. All day Tuesday?
A. I was down at the table.
Q. I understand you to say you did not come down to breakfast?
A. That was Wednesday morning.
Q. I understood you to say that you did not come down to breakfast?
A. I came down, but I did not eat breakfast with them. I did not eat any breakfast. Frequently I would go into the dining room and sit down to the table with them and not eat any breakfast.
_______
Bridget
Prelim
Q. Who was at supper that night?
A. Miss Lizzie, and Mr. and Mrs. Borden.
Q. He [Morse] was not at supper?
A. No Sir.
Q. That was Wednesday night?
A. Yes Sir.
....
Q. Did they all come down to breakfast?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. What did you have for breakfast?
A. Pork steak, and johnny cakes and coffee.
Q. This was Wednesday morning, after the sickness?
A. Yes Sir.
....
Q. Where they all there to supper.
A. Mrs. Borden, Miss Lizzie and Mr. Borden.
.....
Q. Now Wednesday night you had this mutton stew warmed over?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Which you had had at dinner on Wednesday?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Wednesday morning was the morning they came down stairs, and had all been sick?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. You had the pork steak and something for breakfast?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. And Lizzie complained of being sick?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Lizzie stayed in her room all that forenoon, did not she?
A. I suppose so; I did not see her until she [Lizzie] came to dinner.
Q. You knew she was up stairs. They were all sick and ailing that day?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. She did not go out at all that day, did she, so far as you know?
A. Miss Lizzie? I did not see her.
Q. So far as you know she did not go out?
A. I could not say whether she went out or not.
Q. That Wednesday morning they came down and had all been sick during the night?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. They had breakfast, and they looked pretty badly, or rather Mr. and Mrs. Borden did?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. And Lizzie complained?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. They ate a little breakfast, and Lizzie went back up stairs to her room?
A. I suppose so. She went out of my sight, I do not know where she went.
______
There we have Lizzie at every meal: breakfast, dinner and supper on Wednesday, according to Bridget; and breakfast, dinner, supper*, and tea according to Lizzie. Wednesday was the day she says she did not go out- which is her alibi for not being at the drugstore trying to buy poison.
Mrs. Dr. Bowen says she was told by Abbie that Lizzie had not gone out all day until she went to see Alice in the evening after supper.
So Lizzie, who we are under the impression does not eat with the family, is at the table Wednesday for every meal. But since Eli Bence gives such a huge time gap for when he thought Lizzie Borden had come in: between 10 a.m. and 11:30 am, she has not the alibi after all, other than what the now-dead Abbie supposedly told Mrs. Dr. Bowen. It's weird that dead Abbie was an alibi of sorts for Lizzie being home all day and not out trying to buy prussic acid.
*(Dinner is noon, supper is in the "night", around 6 p.m. So when Lizzie says Wednesday night she refers to supper.)
Thanks for all of that put in one place to see. I see each person had a little different twist on it. As far as Lizzie going out- I have made the trip from the front door of the house to Smith's Pharmacy and back and it can be handily accomplished in 15 minutes by going right on Spring Street by St. Mary's, a quick left on South Main, cross the street at Columbia. It is quicker going because it is downhill, the uphill climb coming home up Spring took me a little longer. I also counted in the 3-4 minutes to ask for Prussic Acid. Unless Abby (who was very ill on Wednesday morning) followed Lizzie all around, Lizzie could have walked out of the house to see Bence and back before Abby (who was probably resting in her room part of the time) would have even noticed she was missing.
But, thinking in a Victorian way and in that mindset, the proper Victorian GENTLEMAN would have stepped in to spare "the ladies"- says a lot about Morse.
