Two Bloody Buckets?

[Uozumi]

I was reading in the book Did Lizzie Axe for It? by David Rehak, that there was a bloody bucket in the kitchen and also one in the basement. I have only heard of one bucket before. One bucket for menstrual rags is plausible but two seems like way too much blood. Can anyone verify that their was two buckets?

Steph F.

[chuckciao]

I just ordered the book thru the InterLibrary Loan program and will comment after having read it.

[Harry]

Unless I have missed something I don't know that the pail in the kitchen was bloody. Bridget testified at the trial (p224):

"Q. When she [Lizzie] came, into which room did she come? Where did you first see her?
A. The kitchen.
Q. From what room did she come?
A. From the sitting-room.
Q. What did she do?
A. She came through the kitchen and she left down the slop pail, and I asked her what did she want for breakfast. She said she didn't know as she wanted any breakfast, but she guessed she would have something, she would have some coffee and cookies."

I can't remember, at this moment, without a lot more searching, any other testimony about the pail in the kitchen. There was a bloody pail in the cellar as testified to by Officer Medley and was also included in his witness statement notes:

"... I inquired about some cloths which looked to me like small towels, they were covered with blood, and in a pail half filled with water, and in the wash cellar. She said that was all right; she had told the Doctor all about that. I then asked her how long the pail and its contents had been there; and she said three or four days. I asked the Doctor about it, and he said it had been explained to him, and was all right. I then had a talk with Bridget about the pail and it contents. She said she had not noticed the pail until that day, and it could not have been there two days before, or she would have seen it, and put the contents in the wash, as that was the day she had done the washing. ..."

I think it possible that it may have been the same pail as the one Lizzie put in the kitchen and possibly later brought down to the cellar. She did say that she made a trip to the cellar that morning. Lizzie stated at the Inquest (p63):

"Q. Have you any reason to suppose you would not have seen her if she had spent any portion of the time in her own room, or down stairs?
A. There is no reason why I should not have seen her if she had been down there, except when I first came down stairs, for two or three minutes I went down cellar to the water closet."

What argues against this is that Lizzie, according to Medley's notes, told him that the pail had been there "three or four days". However, Bridget said she never saw it there during that time.

Was it the same pail? Could Lizzie have been mistaken as to when she brought it down? What happened to the pail in the kitchen?

A lot more questions than answers.

[nbcatlover]

The way I would interpret her answer is that the pail's contents had been in the pail 3 or 4 days(an average length for menses), but the pail was only brought through the cellar that day--one pail.

I interpret this as another one of those Lizzie-isms where she only 1/2 answers a question by focusing on 1 on one word or phrase (contents) and ignores the rest of the question. She creates more of a mystery by her replies. I always have the feeling that the Bordens really didn't communicate with one another at home.

[Kat]

That's interesting Harry. I hadn't noticed that.
It does seem like miscommunication too.
Lizzie's period supposedly ended Wednesday night. Bringing her pail down with the cloths Thursday morning would make sense.
But I'm wondering if the menstrual pail and her nightly slop pail might be different pails after all? One would change the water in that slop pail daily, if not more often.
It's still possible it was the menstrual pail only that Lizzie set down in the kitchen area and then took down cellar, soon after, and not the slop pail.
Anyway, Bridget is off by a day as well, as her washing is done Monday- yet she says it couldn't have been there in the cellar two days or she would have washed the towels. Thursday was 3 days later.
They all are confusing!

[Harry]

I assume these slop pails had lids, (God, I hope so!) so that the pail Lizzie brought down that morning could have contained almost anything. Bridget only stated that she (Lizzie) brought down her slop pail and laid it in the kitchen. She doesn't say she looked in it so she would not know what it contained.

It is just a few steps to the stairs leading to the cellar from the kitchen. Why not take it down instead of leaving it in the kitchen where she was going to have her breakfast?

Yes, the slop pail testimony is quite confusing.

I also assume Lizzie would have had more than one slop pail. There is no mention of the pail brought down in the morning being emptied and returned yet Lizzie carried one down again that evening with Alice Russell holding the lamp. She may have also used Emma's.

[Tina-Kate]

I don't think Bridget even states Lizzie brought it down to the kitchen specifically. If I recall, the testimony sounds as if Lizzie may have even taken it down cellar.

[Yooper]

I can understand how a miscommunication can lead to confusion, and there seems to be several here. Depending upon how Medley phrased the question to Lizzie about how long the pail and contents had been there, what did he mean by "there"? In the house or in the cellar? If Bridget's interview created a discrepancy with Lizzie's interview on that point, he apparently didn't follow up by questioning Lizzie further on the subject. He apparently didn't question whether Bridget had any towels in the wash on Monday, either. Bridget's answer that she saw no towels on Monday implies that she did not wash any.

The inconsistency is in how long the pail and towels were in the cellar. I think that was the point of officer Medley's question to Lizzie. Bridget's point was that they were not there on washday or she would have washed them, so they could not have been there three or four days prior.

The possibility exists for a method to the madness. If someone is trying to distance themselves from an event, both in time and spatially, it might make sense to have had nothing to do with the pail for a few days. Telling the authorities that she took a pail of bloody towels to the cellar the morning of the murders pretty well guarantees a thorough search of the pail. Instead we have Lizzie and Dr. Bowen saying the pail was "all right", they had discussed it. Now, why would they discuss it before it was brought to question by anyone?

[Kat]

More on the pail:

Fleet
Trial
550
Page 550

Q. You spoke of finding a pail near the foot of the stairs---I think you did, as you went down,---didn't you?
A. I did not. There was one there; I did not testify to that, I think.

Q. There was one there?
A. There was in the wash cellar.

Q. There was one there?
A. In the wash cellar.

Q. There were clothes in it?
A. There were.

MR. ROBINSON. It is agreed that that pail contained the napkins which had been worn within a day or two by the defendant,---the ordinary monthly sickness---and as to that fact that is all we propose to put in. We do not care to go into the details. It is also agreed that the sickness ended Wednesday night.

That is all, Mr. Fleet.
______________

Doherty
Trial
596

Q. You went down cellar: Tell us what you did down there.
A. We went down cellar, we went into two or three dark places, wood or coal rooms or something. We separated. I got over near the sink and I noticed a pail and some towels.

Q. Pass from those.
___________

Medley
Trial
706
Q. You went in the house?
A. Yes, sir, after going in the back entry I went to go down in the cellar, and while going down in the cellar officer Mullaly, I think, was on the back cellar stairs, or near there, and I saw this pail, in the wash cellar and called his attention to it, and that is all I did there.

Q. You did not continue down in the cellar?
A. No, sir.
______________

Hyde
Trial
847
Q. Had you been in the house before?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. That day?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Had you seen that pail there with the cloths in it?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where was that standing?
A. That pail, when I see it, it was standing on the south side of the wash cellar.

Q. Well, that is pretty near where you were?
A. Pretty near where I was.

Q. And that pail was pretty near the sink, wasn't it?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. And you saw what was in that pail, didn't you?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. I don't mean to go into it. You saw it?
A. Yes, sir; that was my impression.
________

Trial
Robinson Closing- [not evidence]:
Page 1696

Taking again her own sickness at that time, the fact that that pail was standing right by the sink---I am not going to make any suggestions, but I am quite certain that you will guess what she was there for. I will leave it there.

______
-- I'm only adding italics- not for emphasis- but only when there is non-answer rhetoric.

[Kat]

I don't think Bridget even states Lizzie brought it down to the kitchen specifically. If I recall, the testimony sounds as if Lizzie may have even taken it down cellar.

If Lizzie's *final answer* was that she went down cellar as soon as she came downstairs Thursday morning, I think Bridget's phrasing of seeing Lizzie "left down the slop pail" might just mean she left it down cellar. Left is past tense of leave. Leave it down sounds like it was taken down and left it in the cellar.
*Let down*- which is an alternative phrasing to compare with what Bridget did say- might mean put it down, which implies put it down within Bridget's sight somewhere in the kitchen area, maybe near the cellar door.

Inquest information
Timeline of Lizzie:
Aug. 4, 1892, Thursday

8:45 - 8:50 a.m.

Lizzie comes down "a few minutes before nine." "I should say about a quarter" [before nine]. (pg. 56, 59).

Saw "Maggie" [Bridget] and Mrs. Borden; Morse "was not there." (pg. 56).

The family had already breakfasted.

Spoke to her father, and Mrs. Borden . . . "spoke to them all."

Did not mention Morse, nor inquire anything about him. (pg. 56).

"When I first came down stairs I went down cellar to the water closet." (pg. 63).
http://www.lizzieandrewborden.com/Crime ... Lizzie.htm

It's sounding to me that the menstrual pail, and the night slop pail might be 2 different pails. The pail with bloody cloths could have been brought down Thursday morning and left in the cellar by Lizzie before breakfast. Her overnight chamberpot type *pail* could have been brought down Thursday night, if Lizzie did not use it Wednesday night. The ladies were all together in Lizzie's room much of the afternoon, and probably used the chamberpot- which the police might call a slop pail. It's interesting it was speculated here that Emma's pail or pot may have also been called into service that day.

Just as an aside, since Lizzie came home Wednesday night from Alice's and Morse says she went straight upstairs, it's possible Lizzie did not *go* Wednesday night at all. With Morse's bedroom door open that night, she might have held it- so to speak- so he did not hear. Some people think the *sound* with a man overhearing, would be embarrasing or invasion of privacy. Just thinking...

[Yooper]

Thank you for the testimony Kat. They seemed to avoid the subject of the pail and cloths like the plague! That might make the pail an ideal hiding place for something.

Bridget might have been avoiding the subject of the menstrual pail, too. Maybe she simply referred to it as the slop pail as a matter of avoidance.

[Allen]

I know people still to this day who say "left down" to imply they put something down or set it down. So that's the way I've always leaned on that.

[Uozumi]

I've read that around 1900, the "average" age for menopause to begin was somewhere around 47, which was also the "average" age of death. (We know that many others lived to 70 like Andy and Abby.) Lizzie was getting up there in age. Do you think it's possible she wasn't even menstruating anymore? Even though I'm sure the ladies could vouch for wanting to axe someone at some time or other during their periods. (Which would also be a legitimate reason for Lizzie being sick in the nights before the murders.) Is it possible that Lizzie was experiencing the mood swings and memory problems of menopause? Or do you all think Bridget would have sold her out if she really wasn't getting her period anymore? Just some thoughts. Quite honestly, I can't see Lizzie doing something silly, like getting iron from the barn if she was menstruating, even the smallest task feels like a lot of work during that time and that's pre-midol. I'm curious as to the tonics and medicines she might have been using to soothe herself.

Steph

[Kat]

I posted in this thread a bit earlier that the defense stipulates that Lizzie's period ended Wednesday night. Emma might have been entering menopause, but Lizzie at 32 years old? I think that's a bit young, in my opinion.

As for *Left down* vs *Let down*- I thought it was that Lizzie set down the pail in the kitchen too, but now I'm not so sure. I'm looking at the phrasing a new way now- but not committed.

[bob_m_ryan]

If Lizzie brought down her buckets on the morning of the murder, maybe that explains the trips to the cellar the night of the murder. I would guess that after the discovery of the murders that returning the pails to her room would have had a low priority.

[Kat]

I'm not sure I understand. Are you thinking Lizzie brought down more than one *bucket*? (I use asterisk when I'm paraphrasing and not quoting.)

I guess she doesn't say she brought any pail or bucket back up with her- does she? She says she takes the folded clean clothes up but doesn't mention a bucket or pail?
Either she did take it back up then, or once closeted in her room with Alice etc. after the bodies were found, the ladies must have used Emma's potty pail?

[bob_m_ryan]

"It's sounding to me that the menstrual pail, and the night slop pail might be 2 different pails. The pail with bloody cloths could have been brought down Thursday morning and left in the cellar by Lizzie before breakfast. Her overnight chamberpot type *pail* could have been brought down Thursday night, if Lizzie did not use it Wednesday night."

Kat - the quote above is from a post of yours earlier in this thread. That is where I got the notion Liz may have brought down two pails or buckets.

[shakiboo]

I think there would almost have to be two pails, one pail for soaking her "napkins" and one to use nightly, her chamber pot. The soaking pail would have probably had water in it, to submerge the pads as she changed them. And should have had some kind of lid or covering. I just can't see her using it (with the pads in it) for any nightly eliminations. The clean pads would have been folded and probably kept in a drawer, upstairs in her room. I think there would almost have to be some kind of cleaning solution added to the water also. To help with the staining and with the odor. Bridget said if she'd have seen them there wash day, she'd have washed them, so apparently they were washed and reused. Too bad that subject was off limits, but you'd think some one would have asked Bridget if that was the way it had been done in previous months. But what a great place to hide any blood stained rags used to clean up after the murder! Hidden in plain site, in a place that no one wanted to discuss.

[Kat]

Yes I see bob_m_ryan. I did say tho, one in the morning and one at the night, (I was theorizing) but you had said both in the morning. That was all I was wondering about.
You're not wrong nor am I right- just to be clear.
Thank you for explaining.

As for the soaking of the cloths, extra water in there and maybe soap and maybe a lid- that all makes a lot of sense to me. It might be heavy too, to carry- wet cloths in water.

Does anyone think 32 was too young for menopause, besides me?

[Yooper]

I'll back up the contention that 32 is too young for menopause under ordinary conditions. I've done genealogical research, and child bearing age is often a consideration for inclusion or exclusion of a possibility. 47 is an entirely reasonable average for menopause, I generally use either side of 50. I haven't done a statistical analysis to arrive at a standard deviation from the mean, so I can't specify a percentage likelihood to a 15 year variation, but extending the 15 years the other way suggests that 32 is as reasonable for menopause as 62 is for childbearing.

[bob_m_ryan]

Am I right in thinking that the 'slop pail' of those days was used for going potty at night? Boy, I would think things would have been a bit more civilized by the 1890's.

[twinsrwe]

Am I right in thinking that the 'slop pail' of those days was used for going potty at night? Boy, I would think things would have been a bit more civilized by the 1890's.

You are absolutely right regarding what slop pails were used for. However, using a slop pail has nothing to do with being less civilized than anyone else. Since the Bordens didn't have indoor plumbing - the occupants of the household had to use slop pails. As a matter of fact, I was a junior in high school before my family had indoor plumbing.

[shakiboo]

I just looked up the start of menopause and Yooper is pretty close, they give the ages from 45-55 as an indicator, of course it can be younger or older. but I think 32 would be a bit young, although not impossible. But since Bridget's reaction to the pail was ...had it been there on wash day she'd have washed it, makes it more probable that it was something she'd have done before, and not out of the norm. I just had a thought, the white cloth found beside Abbies body, could that have possibly been what was used to wipe up blood, and could it have been a clean cloth used for Lizzies period? If Lizzie did it and needed to wipe up blood, would she have thought of the clean clothes in a drawer normally used by her for her period? It makes sense to me that she would have, what do you think?