Fall River Houses Of Ill Repute, 1892
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dinglefarb
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Fall River Houses Of Ill Repute, 1892
One of the books I read mentions the house on 2nd Street being close
to the Fall River red light district. When I lived in Sedalia, Missouri everyone knew where the old time "houses" used to be....in fact Scott Joplin wrote The Maple Leaf Rag while playing piano at one of them.
So...again....were the "houses" anywhere close to the murder home?
to the Fall River red light district. When I lived in Sedalia, Missouri everyone knew where the old time "houses" used to be....in fact Scott Joplin wrote The Maple Leaf Rag while playing piano at one of them.
So...again....were the "houses" anywhere close to the murder home?
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mbhenty
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Yes DINGLEFARB:
There is little written about the red light district in Fall River around Lizzie's day, but it would be highly unlikely that the red light district was anywhere near 92. There is no proof or anything in history I remember reading to support it.
The address on 2nd Street was situated in an old residential neighborhood. During the murders the Fall River business district was expanding up from Main Street onto 2nd. There was just too many residential homes and businesses to support or allow such an activity to exist there.
During the 40s, and right up to the 70s, Fall River's red light district occupied parts of Bedford Street and parts of Central Streets, behind the City Hall, just below and along Durfee Street; well before there was a Milliken Blvd and route 195. This area had a high concentration of drinking establishments, and during the 40s was one of the party centers in the city. During that time sailors would come up from Newport, R.I.'s naval bases to party in Fall River.
It would be my guess that most such elicit carnal activities were kept close to the docks, down by the waterfront, or places where a high concentration of barrooms or saloons were found.
During the 50s and 60s the Bedford Street area around 6th, 7th, and 8th Stteet, a couple of blocks from the police station, was a well known red light district and painted ladies, the kind with legs, were seen late at night peeking from behind a telephone pole or hiding in a dark entry way or alley, waiting for business.
I remember one pimp who drove a huge lime green Cadillac with wide white wall tires and a large white cowboy hat. A real pandering dandy.
- FairhavenGuy
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In the 1980s, there was, not too far down South Main Street, an adult movie theater that I. . .um. . .don't know anything at all about. . .
I've met Kat and Harry and Stef, oh my!
(And Diana, Richard, nbcatlover, Doug Parkhurst and Marilou, Shelley, "Cemetery" Jeff, Nadzieja, kfactor, Barbara, JoAnne, Michael, Katrina and my 255 character limit is up.)
(And Diana, Richard, nbcatlover, Doug Parkhurst and Marilou, Shelley, "Cemetery" Jeff, Nadzieja, kfactor, Barbara, JoAnne, Michael, Katrina and my 255 character limit is up.)
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mbhenty
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Yes FAIRHAVENGUY:
That was the Academy Theater in the Borden Block on South Main Street, better know as the Academy Building. When I was a boy it was the oldest theater in Fall River and one of the last, if not the last theater to survive and operate as such. I always though that wonderful; even if it was XXX and naughty bits.
- Kat
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When Harry and I were driving back to base camp- the Borden B&B - our last visit, we saw 2 beautiful girls necking out front of those 2 buildings that should be connected over the street- you know the ones, MB. Is that the police station?
I thought there was a house of prostitution on Second Street in 1892.
I thought there was a house of prostitution on Second Street in 1892.
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mbhenty
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That is interesting. I am sure that there were places, houses, that were well know to the locals, that contained ladies who loved to "entertain" (?) and frequented by well informed seedy natives, but a well known "red light district" is unlikely. But perhaps I am wrong. The question is, are we speaking about 2nd street during Lizzie's day?
If anyone knows, or discovers anything about the "naughty house" with the red light, I would love to hear about it. All it takes is one to give a decent neighborhood disreputable esteem.
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mbhenty
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The above reminds me of a funny story.
When I was a child 6 or 7, I lived on Wamsutta Street in the heart of the Flint section of Fall River. Up 4 or 5 houses, close to the corner of Quequechan Street, lived this exotic gypsy looking lady. She lived in a rundown tenement house with a high porch.
We loved climbing up onto the creaky porch to play, where I collected many splinters and remember the lady to be very kind. Sadly, gypsy women had a very bad reputation. Eventually the entire building took on "her ill reputation".
I was reprimanded and told to stay away from the "hooker house". For years that building had a reputation. Later I found out that she did entertain many men and was seen in most of the saloons along Pleasant Street.
But it was not a "hooker house" but just a tenement house, run down, with a lady with many men visitors. But the reputation stuck for many years.
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mbhenty
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Yes, TINA AND KAT:
Reading the posts above gave me a new perspective about what everyone may be talking about, that is, that the red light district was creeping up on Second Street.
The area well known in Fall River as a red light district, if you can really call it that, was not very far from Second Street. What gave it the illusion of distance was that City Hall, along with an assortment of banks, separated the two.
But, the distance between Bedford Street and 2nd Street is a short 4 to 5 blocks and from the waterfront by the same distance.
So, I can see how someone may make that comparison. But, in the immediate Second Street neighborhood, say between Pleasant Street and Rodman Street, I have no proof that it ever had a reputation as such.
- doug65oh
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Okay, here’s a thought that might yield some results pertinent to the 1890s. What was the nearest town or city (if in fact there was one) that hosted reunions of the Grand Army of the Republic? I ran across a listing for a book a minute or two back called Civil War Bawdy Houses in Washington, D.C.. The book information mentions that it includes a copy of a “Souvenir Sporting Guide” apparently published for the…
ahem… aid …and…comfort?
of gentlemen attending the 1895 Reunion of the G.A.R. in Chicago, Illinois. It's a long shot, but...
We struck out from old Fall River more than 30 years ago,
Young men proud to do our duty,'gainst the Rebels strike a blow!
Now we’ve come again to reminisce and fondly greet old friends.
Your boys have marched on home!
…and that sorta thing.
We struck out from old Fall River more than 30 years ago,
Young men proud to do our duty,'gainst the Rebels strike a blow!
Now we’ve come again to reminisce and fondly greet old friends.
Your boys have marched on home!
…and that sorta thing.
I staid the night for shelter at a farm behind the mountains, with a mother and son - two "old-believers." They did all the talking...
- Robert Frost
- Robert Frost
- doug65oh
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Hmmm.... scratch that idea. The nearest time and place of a National Encampment of the G.A.R. in relation to the timeframe of the Borden murders was the 24th National Encampment August 13-14, 1890, at Boston. The next nearest was the 38th National Encampment, August 17-18, 1904, also at Boston.
I staid the night for shelter at a farm behind the mountains, with a mother and son - two "old-believers." They did all the talking...
- Robert Frost
- Robert Frost
- Tina-Kate
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I think you lost me there.Yooper @ Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:00 am wrote:Defamation by proximity works from both directions. Think about it!
Do you think any houses of ill repute in the area of the Borden murders would have suffered from the murders?
Just thought of a cartoon idea:
Imagining how in New Bedford, all the guest houses, hotels, inn, etc were booked during the Lizzie Trial. Perhaps some men had to seek alternative accommodation in a NB bawdy house. Cartoon: you see a bunch of "girls" sitting around looking bored. A man rushes through. They look up hopefully, but he merely shakes his hand at them & sez---
"Don't bother me...I've gotta get up early for the Trial."
“I am innocent. I leave it to my counsel to speak for me.”
—Lizzie A. Borden, June 20, 1893
—Lizzie A. Borden, June 20, 1893
- Yooper
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Let's put it this way, at the time of the murders, 92 Second St. may not have been considered "the house wherein Saint Lizzie dwelt". A murderer in the neighborhood might have given the whores a bad name, to put it bluntly. The houses of ill repute might have turned around and started creeping the other direction.Tina-Kate @ Mon Jan 21, 2008 3:11 pm wrote:I think you lost me there.Yooper @ Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:00 am wrote:Defamation by proximity works from both directions. Think about it!
Do you think any houses of ill repute in the area of the Borden murders would have suffered from the murders?
Just thought of a cartoon idea:
Imagining how in New Bedford, all the guest houses, hotels, inn, etc were booked during the Lizzie Trial. Perhaps some men had to seek alternative accommodation in a NB bawdy house. Cartoon: you see a bunch of "girls" sitting around looking bored. A man rushes through. They look up hopefully, but he merely shakes his hand at them & sez---
"Don't bother me...I've gotta get up early for the Trial."
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mbhenty
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The environs around Wamsutta Street in the 60s were rundown but very family oriented. There were kids all over, and the street was our playground.
There were also clusters of badly dilapidated properties all around. The house I lived in faced Weybosset Street a short 60 seconds from number 4 where Morse went visiting that August 4th.
Across the street was an old junkyard and abandoned barn, but the actual "junkyard main building" was just behind my house. This junkyard was the Hargraves Soap Factory back in 1892, the factory where Daniel Emery was employed the day Morse went visiting.
To the west of the house was an empty field which was used as a dump by some, with tall grass, dead cats, and empty sheds, where drunks would hide with a bottle of fire water after letting out from their employment at the junkyard. One of these was Old Man Slim.
Not a place or time you would want to raise your children. But, class structure being what it was, children of mill workers were given little choice where they could live.
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In my library I have a book showing every address and building in Fall River at that time. So, I went looking for the gypsy lady's tenement house, and there it was. It was long razed and no longer exists. The old empty lot is now a parking lot but the old Junkyard building still stands. Last I remember it was empty.
All the buildings which stood around the gypsy lady's tenement are gone and a tiny rundown park sits in their place. There were 7 apartment buildings there at that time, including a butcher store and bike shop. They all sat between Wamsutta, Massasoit, and Quequechan Street.
The address I lived at, 149 Wamsutta, is still there. As a matter of fact, it still has the same asbestos shingles and looks no different then it did when I lived there almost 50 years ago.
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mbhenty
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Ok KAT:
Just took some time to scrub the two most likely suspects in the Brothels Caper: SPIERING and MISS VICKY.
Victoria Lincoln is a riot. Some of the things she pulls out of her hat. Then I went to Spiering and he repeats them. I was sure it was one of those two which came up with the brothel story. I even checked my boy Radin. Oh yes.......Vicky says that ANDREW BORDEN was 6'2 but he was really 5 feet 11.
She lovvvvvvvvves to brag that she knew Lizzie, heard her voice, cut from the same cloth, that Lizzie was practically a friend of hers and how she was good friends with Lizzie's good friend.
So where did you read that Kat.......?
The reason I ask is because I find in unlikely. There were all kinds of businesses up and down 2nd street, not the sort of place you would find a brothel. Just on Lizzie's block alone there were four (4) doctors, including Dr. Bowen, Dr. Kelly, Dr. Chagnon, and Dr. Collet all within one block of 92 Second. Brothels? I don't think so.
- doug65oh
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mbhenty
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Just joking KAT:
Not sure what the demographics were back in 1892 without doing a more in depth study, but not far from Second street was John, Fourth, Fifth, Brow, Wade, Branch Streets, etc., most South of, and including Rodman Street; and which contained many tenement houses and working class people. A short 4 or five blocks, either towards the river or just east, were large clusters of mills.
Without pressing on with any prejudices, I would say neighborhoods such as those are more likely to have a "naughty cottage" here or there.
By the same token, we must keep in mind that the best place for a brothel may just be a neighborhood with many business establishments. After all, it is an occupation of the night. Many business neighborhoods were barren at night. A perfect setting for activities which are best undertaken without an audience.
Oops! got to go Kat, I just got paged by one of my girls. Got to go.
- snokkums
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I guess it's like that every where; everywhere, I think has a bad section of town. In Milwuakee, it's on the south end of town. Used to be an old Catholic church right in the middle of the red light destrict, but it got closed down because it kept getting broke into. And the druggies kept using the church as a crack and flop house, and evenually, the last priest there ended up getting murdered, so the church closed it.
In Fayetteville, North Carolina where I live now, all you have to do is walk or drive up and down Bragg Blvd, and see all kinds of stuff--prositutes, drug dealers, etc. I guess, though, Bonnie Dunne, off the Blvd would be our Red Light district. There are some parts of Bonnie Dunne even the police won't go in.
In Fayetteville, North Carolina where I live now, all you have to do is walk or drive up and down Bragg Blvd, and see all kinds of stuff--prositutes, drug dealers, etc. I guess, though, Bonnie Dunne, off the Blvd would be our Red Light district. There are some parts of Bonnie Dunne even the police won't go in.
Suicide is painless It brings on many changes and I will take my leave when I please.
- Tina-Kate
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MB---if you haven't already done so, you should write some Fall River stories circa the era of your childhood. You've got great background there.
Your descriptions made me want to write, but I can't---I'm at work!
Your descriptions made me want to write, but I can't---I'm at work!
“I am innocent. I leave it to my counsel to speak for me.”
—Lizzie A. Borden, June 20, 1893
—Lizzie A. Borden, June 20, 1893
- Harry
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There is an chapter in the Proceedings book edited by Jules Ryckebusch written by Paul Fletcher (pages 191-196). One paragraph, in part, page 193, reads:
".... No young eligible man from Rock Street and the exclusive Highlands to the north could have ever called on her [Lizzie], while she lived on a commercial street cluttered with livery stables, and at least two houses of ill repute."
Brackets and highlighting mine. There is no source cited for this information.
In the May 2007 Hatchet I had an article listing the arrests made in FR in 1892 which was based on official city records. In all of Fall River there were:
2 arrests for "Keeping a house of ill fame"
5 arrests for "Common Night Walker"
2 arrests for "Fornication"
30 arrests for "Lewd and Lascivious Behavior"
Even if you assume all these arrests were related to houses of ill repute they total only 39. There were more arrests for vagrancy (45) that year.
There is a paragraph in an article by the late Neilson Caplain in the July 2000 LBQ titled "Lizzie's Home Town":
".... Here is another bit of information (or misinformation) that was passed to me by word of mouth. It came from Mr. Madison Welch, a highly-respected business man and civic leader in Fall River.
Mr. Welch's good friend was Pat Harrington, a well-known lawyer, who related the following account. One of his clients was Rose Almy who ran a house of ill repute. It was her custom to meet each new group of girls at the railroad depot. On the day of the Borden murders, and at the time they were said to have taken place, Rose, with her girls was in a coach going up Second Street. As she passed the Borden house she saw a man, with a package under his arm, dash out of the house and make his way hurriedly up the street.
Years later she told the story to Mr. Harrington. Asked why in the world she hadn't come forward at the time of the trial she said it was because of her inability to do so due to the nature of her business."
Alas, it doesn't say where she was headed. Assuming the story to be true.
".... No young eligible man from Rock Street and the exclusive Highlands to the north could have ever called on her [Lizzie], while she lived on a commercial street cluttered with livery stables, and at least two houses of ill repute."
Brackets and highlighting mine. There is no source cited for this information.
In the May 2007 Hatchet I had an article listing the arrests made in FR in 1892 which was based on official city records. In all of Fall River there were:
2 arrests for "Keeping a house of ill fame"
5 arrests for "Common Night Walker"
2 arrests for "Fornication"
30 arrests for "Lewd and Lascivious Behavior"
Even if you assume all these arrests were related to houses of ill repute they total only 39. There were more arrests for vagrancy (45) that year.
There is a paragraph in an article by the late Neilson Caplain in the July 2000 LBQ titled "Lizzie's Home Town":
".... Here is another bit of information (or misinformation) that was passed to me by word of mouth. It came from Mr. Madison Welch, a highly-respected business man and civic leader in Fall River.
Mr. Welch's good friend was Pat Harrington, a well-known lawyer, who related the following account. One of his clients was Rose Almy who ran a house of ill repute. It was her custom to meet each new group of girls at the railroad depot. On the day of the Borden murders, and at the time they were said to have taken place, Rose, with her girls was in a coach going up Second Street. As she passed the Borden house she saw a man, with a package under his arm, dash out of the house and make his way hurriedly up the street.
Years later she told the story to Mr. Harrington. Asked why in the world she hadn't come forward at the time of the trial she said it was because of her inability to do so due to the nature of her business."
Alas, it doesn't say where she was headed. Assuming the story to be true.
I know I ask perfection of a quite imperfect world
And fool enough to think that's what I'll find
And fool enough to think that's what I'll find
- Tina-Kate
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Yay, Harry! I know I have read that particular quote before.Harry @ Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:38 am wrote:There is an chapter in the Proceedings book edited by Jules Ryckebusch written by Paul Fletcher (pages 191-196). One paragraph, in part, page 193, reads:
".... No young eligible man from Rock Street and the exclusive Highlands to the north could have ever called on her [Lizzie], while she lived on a commercial street cluttered with livery stables, and at least two houses of ill repute."
“I am innocent. I leave it to my counsel to speak for me.”
—Lizzie A. Borden, June 20, 1893
—Lizzie A. Borden, June 20, 1893
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mbhenty
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Yes TINA-KATE: Thanks for the kind words.
Yes, I am full of stories about my childhood. It was a very turbulent and unsettling time for me in many respects. Much of Fall River in the 40s to the 70s was skid row; made up of mini run down three deckers bordering on slums.
Sure, there were clean middle class neighborhoods here and there, along with exclusive neighborhoods up towards Saint Pat's Cemetery. But, when I was in school even the Highlands bordering Maplecorft was crumbling and shabby. Their rescue began in the early 70s, which did more harm then good, and in earnest into the late 80s.
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mbhenty
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YES, Great Investigating HARRY: Thanks !!
I read Mr Fletcher's piece this morning. Interesting that he offered that bit of information about brothels on 2nd Street but does not give the source. His piece is very reminiscent of Victoria Lincoln.
Both lived in Fall River. Both have "stories" which they "heard". Both spin a good yarn. Both good writers. Both make assumptions based on HEARSAY.
Perhaps he is just as passionate about his belief as I am in mine or you in yours............but where is the proof?
I have no proof there was not and he gives no proof there was. But alas, I am more right then he is. Similar to those who believe Arnold Brown and give the defense that since you cannot disprove Brown's story why would you say it did not happen. Not a good defense.
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mbhenty
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Let's take a look at Mr. Paul Fletcher.
His piece is a very good read. Apparently Mr. Fletcher grew up in Fall River and was a small boy in the 40s; and hung around Sweeney's Moving Company on the corner of Borden and Third Streets.
Reading his narrative I walk away with the impression that most of what he heard was hearsay, folklore, stories told on the street. Much of it probably came from his Grandfather BERNIE SWEENEY.\
For example: He calls Doc Bowen an "over the hill Borden Family physician", street story.
All in all it's a good read. He does mention Corky Row and describes it as an "old Irish shanty enclave" which it was then and still is today, minus the Irish.
He calls the old Mount St. Mary's School up 2nd street as "condo minnies". I wired some of those apartments, at the time not condos, and some were a good size. Towards the back is a new section which were quite small, but I would not call them minnies. He say's an old resident gave him that information.....again hearsay.
Though the description of the kid with the boom-box playing Ozzie Osborne is funny and probably true, but non-the-less a good embellishment if not. It's what writers do.....
All in all a good piece, but we must keep the facts in place. Whether it is true or not just because some famous, or not so famous, author wrote it does not make it true. We must dig and dig till we reach the source. And even then, it fades with time, takes on the complexion of folklore and proof becomes more difficult
- Tina-Kate
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Not trying to sound too snobbishly literary---but---J.D. Salinger wrote this short story where the title character, Esme, sez she "prefers stories about squalor...I'm extremely interested in squalor."mbhenty @ Tue Jan 22, 2008 1:17 pm wrote:![]()
Yes TINA-KATE: Thanks for the kind words.
Yes, I am full of stories about my childhood. It was a very turbulent and unsettling time for me in many respects. Much of Fall River in the 40s to the 70s was skid row; made up of mini run down three deckers bordering on slums.
"Squalor" makes for great stories (just look at Dickens). Of course, Fall River is a great location.
“I am innocent. I leave it to my counsel to speak for me.”
—Lizzie A. Borden, June 20, 1893
—Lizzie A. Borden, June 20, 1893
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bob_m_ryan
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- doug65oh
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Not necessarily, Bob. It’s important to remember I think to keep sight of one important thing: The Second Street of the 1890s was more “working-class” than “slum” at the time the Borden family lived there. If anything it wouldn’t have been a disgrace to live there. Take Mrs. Churchill, for instance who resided next door at No. 90 Second. If I recall the connections correctly, Mrs. Churchill was the daughter of the late Edward P. Buffinton, one time Mayor of the city of Fall River. In fact, I believe she was asked at trial – the questioner was trying to nail down specifically the location of her home –
Q. The Mayor Buffington[sic] house, as it is called?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And is that the house next north of the Borden house?
A. Yes, sir.
(Trial, vol. 1; pg. 343.)
See what I mean? Not to be picky, but it seems to me that to suggest embarrassment went along with a home on Second Street wouldn’t be fair or fit to the residents – or for that matter to the deceased Bordens, who’d lived there a number of years at the least, by the choice of Andrew J. Borden, who was himself known and respected.
Q. The Mayor Buffington[sic] house, as it is called?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And is that the house next north of the Borden house?
A. Yes, sir.
(Trial, vol. 1; pg. 343.)
See what I mean? Not to be picky, but it seems to me that to suggest embarrassment went along with a home on Second Street wouldn’t be fair or fit to the residents – or for that matter to the deceased Bordens, who’d lived there a number of years at the least, by the choice of Andrew J. Borden, who was himself known and respected.
I staid the night for shelter at a farm behind the mountains, with a mother and son - two "old-believers." They did all the talking...
- Robert Frost
- Robert Frost
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mbhenty
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I agree, the 2nd Street area was an old and respected neighborhood, but in an ever flowing flux towards the end of the 19th century.
When the Churchill / Buffington house was built, and later the Charles Trafton / Borden House, parts of So. Main Street were graced by two and three story colonials, old residences from the early 1800s. Shortly after and into the 1870s, 80s and 90s the city experienced runaway growth.
Old protestant precincts were undergoing ethnic change. Proof of this was St Marys Church, situated only about 200 yards from the Borden front door. A new Ecclesiastical command was making itself known in great numbers. For some the change was to much, and a move to the more Protestant and wealthy Highland neighborhood began.
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mbhenty
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To some, I may appear to always be slamming one author or another, but that is not necessarily true. Part of it is my sincere opinion or my nature to always ask "WHO, WHY, WHEN, HOW, WHOSEZ", though somewhat rough around the edges, part of it just an endeavor to get at the truth or try to understand.
I think I have said enough on this subject.
I think DINGLEFARB received more then his money's worth on this one.
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Just one more thing.
I just had coffee with my friend Jim who worked with me at the Mount Saint Marys building complex. When Mr Fletcher wrote his piece for the book PROCEEDINGS, the old Mount Saint Mary's apartment building was just that; apartments not condos.
Even today it is still apartments.
So Mr Fletcher was wrong about that?
Was doc Bowen washed up, seen better days?
Could he be wrong about the "hostels for the Naughty?" (brothels)
There was a Baptist church just a block away from 92 second on South Main Street and St Mary's Cathedral almost across the street from the Borden home. Are we to understand that these religious establishments would stand for such behavior or places on their door step?
What you must ask is: Show me proof.
Not just something someone wrote to sell a book. (hearsay, folklore, gossip)
There is no room for error when your aim is to shoot down the reputation of a person or a neighborhood. We must dig and ask questions. Show me the quote, the court document, the newspaper report, the witness etc. Take me back to the source, the core, the undisputed proof.
If not, then it is my opinion and right to ask Who, why, when, how etc.
The gods know, the Hatchet beats me up every time I submit a piece in unrelenting and unforgiving fashion and request to get it right.
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mbhenty
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Tina-Kate @ Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:33 am wrote:MB---if you haven't already done so, you should write some Fall River stories circa the era of your childhood. You've got great background there.
Your descriptions made me want to write, but I can't---I'm at work!
Thank you much TINA-KATE: Those were nice words. I have had several requests from the Hatchet for such articles. Perhaps the spring issue.
My second article for the Hatchet was on such a time line, growing up etc.
I recount some of my exploits in and around the Quequechan River and neighboring Flint area in Fall River. ( Around the time when I was 10 or eleven.) There's even a portrait of me as a little boy of 10. It's in issue: Vol 3 No.3.
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The Story about Rose Almy, if true, could be made to fit a bit. (Thanks Harry)
It was reported that Ms Almy was going up 2nd street with a "new flock of birds." ........................ (women for the trade?????? Ok, ok, not funny)
If one was to continue up 2nd street past the Borden house, St Marys, across Rodman Street and another 4 or 5 blocks, 2nd street merges with Plymouth Avenue.
Plymouth Avenue was known as "EIGHT ROD WAY" back in 1892.
If in fact the same person, ROSE ALMY lived on EIGHT ROD WAY close to the R.I. line just about 2 miles away from the Borden neighborhood and well away from the center of Fall River.
Though away from most activities this was a very rural part of Fall River in the south end. Today considered the south or east end of Globe Village.
If her home was truly a house of ill repute, then this begs us to ask whether such places were in very rural areas where they would attract little attention.. (?)
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I am very sure that Emma and Lizzie's prospects would have been immensely improved if they lived on Rock Street or Highland Ave.
If it is in fact true, that Lizzie and Emma did not have any suitors, it had more to do with their character and choice then where they lived.
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There is no statute in truth that well-to-do types would exclude women from 2nd street in 1892 outright because of where they lived. Could be true? Makes sense....but just an assumption.
And since he does not supply a source it is Mr. Paul Fletcher's opinion.
Just because he wrote it does not make it so. Just because J. R. Ryckebusch chose to record it in his book does not make it fact.
We don't know if upper class men shun the 2nd street area.. (?) Three doctors did not think so....... We don't know if there were brothels nearby.. (?) It is all conjecture.
Mr Fletcher writes that Lizzie moved into an "ugly 14 room Mckinley-style house on French Street", Maplecroft. Only his opinion. Though not a striking or majestic looking building, Maplecroft is far from ugly. Just not as grand as many others on the hill.
Ugly...................Maplecroft..............just a writers opinion
I think Mr Fletcher had to many conversations with his Grandpa Sweeney.
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Victorian architecture very quickly went out of style with successive generations. Wasn't until really the 70s when people began appreciating it again. I'm guess "Mr Fletcher" thought Maplecroft old-fashioned.mbhenty @ Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:27 pm wrote:Mr Fletcher writes that Lizzie moved into an "ugly 14 room Mckinley-style house on French Street", Maplecroft. Only his opinion. Though not a striking or majestic looking building, Maplecroft is far from ugly. Just not as grand as many others on the hill.
It's the current problem in the house where I live...the landlord was born in 1913 & sees the house he owns as an apartment building...has absolutely no appreciation that it's a Victorian Mansion with magnificent features.
No accounting for taste.
Actually---we have a former brothel here in my town that is now quite a nice restaurant on the 1st floor with apartments on the 2nd & 3rd. It's one of less than 1/2 dozen houses that still retain its wrought iron features. There was a known former brothel whose house was still standing when I was in Toronto, as well.
“I am innocent. I leave it to my counsel to speak for me.”
—Lizzie A. Borden, June 20, 1893
—Lizzie A. Borden, June 20, 1893
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It ends at Plymouth Ave (Rte 81). That connects with Rte 24 which goes to Newport. Kat and I drove down to Newport that way.Kat @ Fri Jan 25, 2008 4:53 am wrote:Doesn't Second Street go all the way to Newport?
I like the look of Maplecroft. It's not as beautiful as some of the "painted ladies" on Shelley's web sites but it has a charm of its own.
Part of the problem is its setting. When you face the house it is close to the house to its left and to its right has an open area. To add to that imbalance most of the exterior "activity" of the house is to the left while the right side is somewhat plain. Viewing it from the side it looks much larger and quite attractive. The few pictures I've seen of the inside show some of the rooms and trimming to be gorgeous. Strictly my opinions.
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And fool enough to think that's what I'll find
And fool enough to think that's what I'll find
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I never thought of that unbalanced thing, but I think you're right.
I think it's a shame they put up that siding...it looked much better with the wood shingles, IMO.
I guess everyone would love to see inside. From the little I've seen of pix over the years, it looks very craftsman as opposed to Victorian. But that's OK...
I think it's a shame they put up that siding...it looked much better with the wood shingles, IMO.
I guess everyone would love to see inside. From the little I've seen of pix over the years, it looks very craftsman as opposed to Victorian. But that's OK...
“I am innocent. I leave it to my counsel to speak for me.”
—Lizzie A. Borden, June 20, 1893
—Lizzie A. Borden, June 20, 1893
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Was Maplecroft built before or after the house right next to it? That is a bit odd to expose the plain side while hiding the fancy side of the house. Houses can be built as the mirror image of a floorplan, and unless there was an overriding factor such as having certain rooms facing a given direction, it might have made more sense to orient the facade to the open area.
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According to Rebello, p286: "...It had been constructed about four or five years ago and was situated on thirty rods of land. ..." That would be about 1888 or 1889. So it was fairly new
When they bought the house in 1893 there was a house on that lot to the right. The map on page 284 of Rebello shows the Kenny house on that lot. How near it was to Maplecroft I have no idea.
I believe Lizzie also had the wrap-around porch added as well as the bedroom in the rear. So the setting and over-all look was different when they purchased it.
When they bought the house in 1893 there was a house on that lot to the right. The map on page 284 of Rebello shows the Kenny house on that lot. How near it was to Maplecroft I have no idea.
I believe Lizzie also had the wrap-around porch added as well as the bedroom in the rear. So the setting and over-all look was different when they purchased it.
I know I ask perfection of a quite imperfect world
And fool enough to think that's what I'll find
And fool enough to think that's what I'll find