Goodbye Lizzie Borden--Questions

[Nadzieja]

My husband Ted started to read Goodbye Lizzie Borden & asked me two questions that I had to answer "I don't know but I know where to find out" One was on page 9 that said Andrew J. Borden who by 1892 converted his inheritance and his early undertaking busines into a financial standing- and a string of titles-as impressive as that of any of his relatives. I didn't think he got an inheritance, I thought he made back the money his ancestor lost, and what is meant by the undertaking business. I thought he built coffins, but that statement makes me believe he did more than that. Also he said that on page 8 it mentions the chimney of the Fall River Ironworks, in 1892 being the tallest chimney in the United States. Now if you look at the picture on page 12, is that the chimney behind the Borden house or is that the chimney from the Borden house?

[mbhenty]

Borden sold coffins and probably acted as a funeral director, we are not sure. But a person who sold coffins in the 19 century was sometimes referred to as "Undertakers." Undertakers was a term used for cabinet makers who made coffins, or "undertook" the job of making caskets. Though, there is no proof that Andrew Borden actually built them, but instead, probably just sold them.

There is very little proof written of Andrew's inheritance, but Lizzie's grandfather, though not successful, was not a pauper like authors love to publicize......there was the property on Ferry Street which amounted to two buildings.

Though very successful at business, Andrew Borden made most of his money through real estate investments, acquisitions, and speculations in the textile industry, along with bank holdings. But yes, most of his money was made by shrewd deals in property, banking and the textile field.

[mbhenty]

Ok NADZIEJA:

Now, directions to the American Print Works. No, that is not the chimney of the Print Works that you see.

The American Print Works was down by the river, on Water Street, little less than a mile from the Borden home on Second.

In 1892, if you left the front door of Lizzie's house and proceeded down 2nd street, heading North a block, you would take a left down Borden Street to South Main Street. Then you would take a right on South Main, cross the street and your next left would be Annawan Street. A. J. Borden Building is right on the corner of South Main and Annawan. You would then take a left on Annawan and follow it down to the water, a hill about 130 feet high for about 7 blocks and you would run right into the front of the American Print Works.

Of course most of it is gone, including the Main Building, but if you drive along Water Street, you can still see part of the building's granite foundation still in place

[mbhenty]

Though it was reported that the chimney at the Print Works was the tallest in the world, there were many others in the city that came close.

Even as tall as it was reported to be Lizzie still would not be able to see it from her home on 2nd Street. There just to many buildings in the way.....though she could probably see the top of it from the 3rd floor.

[mbhenty]

What say you SHELLEY, can you see any of the water front from the 3rd floor?

[Tina-Kate]

OK---A lot is being made lately of Andrew being an undertaker.

From the sources (esp Rebello), Borden & Almy were cabinetmakers. The undertaking was just a sideline. From this business, both partners went into real estate. Shortly after taking in a third partner, they left behind their business to the junior partner.

I doubt very much if Andrew Borden would ever consider his career had been that of an undertaker.

Also, Andrew did get a bit of inheritance from his father, Abraham Borden. Abraham was not as destitute as some books make him out to be.

[snokkums]

I don't know anything of an inheirtance; I was always under the impression that Andrew J. Borden was from the porer side of the family, and neither side had much to do with the other. (I could be wrong.)

I was also under the impression,too, that that is why he worked so hard to make his underaking- or any other business for that matter- a successful wrong.I think he held a grudge. It was his way of thumbing his nose at the other half the family. I don't think he ever got over the being poor or something. It's just my guess.

[Tina-Kate]

Abraham Borden owned a good sized house in Fall River. In Victorian times, that was definitely not poor.

I think it's a matter of perspective. The "other" Bordens were by comparison very rich...mansions on the Hill and all of that. However, in my book, "poor" would be homeless or renting a small space somewhere...not landowners. Some books refer to Abraham as a fish peddlar & make him sound as tho he was on the streets every day scratching out a living like some desititute character out of Dickens. Obviously, if the man owned his own house, he wasn't what some books make him out to be.

Andrew was ambitious...but really...is he any more ambitious than much of today's "Yuppy" generation?

[Harry]

Yes, that's another myth that Andrew's father was poor. This is from Rebello, page 28:

"August 1, 1883 - Andrew Borden was administrator of his father's estate when Abraham Borden died, December 6, 1882. He left no will. Equal disbursements went to Bebe (Wilmarth) Borden, second wife of Abraham Borden ($1,960.00), Lurana (Borden) Harrington ($1,960.00) and Andrew J. Borden ($1,960.00). Lurana (Borden) Harrington sold her share of the Ferry Street home to her brother, Andrew J. Borden."

Those 3 entries total $5,880. Using the inflation calculator that amount through 2006 would be worth $118,492 in today's money. Certainly not poor and definitely not poor for a street peddler.

http://www.westegg.com/inflation/

[Yooper]

Tina-Kate is absolutely right, there's poor with respect to the general population, then there's poor with respect to a segment of the population named Borden. Middle class in the former group would probably translate to poor in the latter group.

[mbhenty]

What can I say..........HARRY comes through once more.

From everything I have read, I believe that LIZZIE BORDEN PAST AND PRESENT is the only place, or publication in a book, that shows particulars about Abraham Borden's will.

When I wrote my post I had my feet up on an ottoman.

Under my feet was my working copy of Len Rebello's book.

I remember writing about Abraham and thinking, "I should look in Rebello. Abraham's will is probably in there."

Sure enough.

Thanks Harry....

[mbhenty]

All those Authors who wrote that Abraham was a pauper are either ignorant, reckless in their research, or sensationalists, with the ultimate purpose to sell books.

They have no clue.

I would love to have pinched them by the ear and take them back in time to when I was a child. We could not even afford shoes. My brothers never got my hand-me-downs because I wore them out. No way could we afford a house and even a car was out of the question.

Abraham was wealthy by my standards. He had a house. The average house in Fall River today is around 250,000. So Abraham could have been even worth more.

[Tina-Kate]

I think the "undertaker" angle is also played-up & sensationalist---it adds more intregue to the Legend to say Lizzie's father was an undertaker.

Made worse by that scene in the movie (Legend of Lizzie Borden) where Lizzie sees Andrew embalming a body---total fiction.

[Harry]

I was amused at reading the lines that list several undertakers in the 1892 City Directory.

"Soucy, Samuel, sewing machine dealer and undertaker, 377 Pleasant, house Eastern ave. near Earle"

And for Winward's, the very undertaker that Lizzie stressed to get, it lists this:

"Winward, James E., carpets and furniture, also undertaker, 13 South Main house 34 Hanover"

So you could get a new sewing machine, some carpets and furniture or you could bury your loved ones. Take your choice.

[doug65oh]

Why do I suddenly have a vision of a body tucked neatly away in a window seat??

[Harry]

Partial quote:

Abraham was wealthy by my standards. He had a house. The average house in Fall River today is around 250,000. So Abraham could have been even worth more.

Absolutely Michael. The rate of inflation for housing and real estate is greater than the average rate of inflation. Witness the current bubble in housing prices. Way, way beyond the growth of inflation.

The value of the $5,880 would be substantially higher than the $118,492 amount in housing value.

Of course it still comes down to location, location, location.

[mbhenty]

Yes, and one more interesting and perhaps coincidental point.

Before Lizzie had purchased the Davenport House, William Ridings lived there. (in the 20s) His occupation was listed as undertaker for WINWARD undertakers.

[Nadzieja]

I guess undertaker was a general term and not a specialized business as it is today. Didn't barbers at one time also practice a little dentistry-like pulling teeth? Where I heard that I'm not sure it was quite awhile ago. MB, thank you for the directions. I also have an interest in the old mills. I went out through my town & the surrounding towns & took pictures of some of the old mills. Most of them are no longer in operation, but I remember them (all running) when I was a kid. It's really sad to see all these empty building, but I must confess I love the architecture. How many factories was Andrew affiliated with that he actually made a yearly income? Is there a directory ( I don't care how old) of the mills that were in Fall River? I would love to get a list & addresses, and a street map so maybe when it gets warmer (of course Ted will drive) I'd like to come & get some photos. Any idea on where I can acquire these? As for the chimney---then in that photo it is the chimney on the Borden house?

[Nadzieja]

As for Andrew's inheritence---I gues Abraham was alot wealthier than alot of people. He owned property. It looks like most people who give the impression he was poor only did compare him to the other Bordens. They should have compared him to the mill workers. My dad worked in a shoe factory all his life, my parents never even owned a car. We lived behind a grocery store & dad walked to work & back everyday no matter how hot or cold the weather.

[Kat]

Here's a pic I took in August,' 07, on Annawan Street looking down to the water. Harry and I took Andrew's walk. Sort of...

[Kat]

Here are some census figures on Abraham Borden- from Terence Duniho Collection

(Remember to multiply by 18 for todays' value)

[shakiboo]

wow he had already made alot of money! With that kind of money it makes you wonder why he didn't want things better, like gas or more indoor plumbing. And even a nicer home.

[Kat]

Look how old Abraham is!
When it was supposedly overheard on the cars that Abbie was described as *one of those that never die* maybe that could have been said of Andrew- as Abraham's son!
It seems Andrew was in pretty good shape.

[mbhenty]

Yes KAT:

In the census above it lists Andrew Borden as a "CabinetDlr."

I would take this to claims that he was a "Cabinet Dealer".

My contention is; though Andrew worked for SOUTHARD MILLER early in his life as a CARPENTER, his occupation throughout life, and the way he made his money, was not done so building coffins or running his own cabinet shop, and greeting his customers at the door with a mallet and chisel in hand.

After working with Miller, he went to work for an Uncle as a manager of his property and there is probably no proof that he did any MANUAL LABOR after that.

I would guess he made most his money as a merchant, a dealer, a salesman, retailer, a supplier, but not a craftsperson or master woodworker. And, though his farm could have turned over a handsome profit, farming was not his occupation. The SWANSEA place was mostly a GENTLEMEN'S FARM. Though it was a working farm, there is no proof that Borden was up at 3:30 am feeding chickens, bailing hay and pushing a plow.

Though I have no proof of this, I can't think where it is recorded that it is anything else.

Andrew Borden made most his money as a cunning BUSINESSMAN. Perhaps far from being described as a Calvinistic Dandy, still, there is no proof that he made a living with his hands, or that his great wealth was accumulated as a laborer.

[nbcatlover]

Didn't Andrew get to sit on many of the prestigious textile boards as a the representative for a wealthier uncle?

[mbhenty]

Yes:

Borden probably got his foot in the door of the world of professional enterprise early by going to work for, I believe, his uncle Thomas Borden, managing his business. (Once you manage, govern, and command, it is hard to go back to picking up a hammer or trailing a plow, which he either never did or did very little of both)

Chances are, he never made a living at these things and the real money started rolling in right after he left Millers employment. (not sure whether he worked for Miller or worked with Miller)

Sometime in his life, probably towards his senior years, he became director or or sat as an administrator on the board of such places as: The Globe Yarn, the Merchant's Manufactory, and the Troy Cotton Mills.

He was also President of the Union Savings Bank, and sat on the board of at least 2 or 3 other banks.

[Kat]

I was trying to figure out your source for Andrew's positions in the world of business. I just looked in Hoffman, Yesterday In Old Fall River and it says:
"...directing officer in the Union Savings Bank, Durfee Safe Deposit and Trust Company, Globe Yarn Mill Company, Troy Cotton and Woolen Manufacturing Company and the Merchants Manufacturing Company."

I don't know if this list is accurate, and I can't tell if some of these are the same places to which you refer? May I ask your source?
There doesn't seem to be much on him in The Knowlton Papers Glossary, which is surprising.

[Tina-Kate]

I believe it says in Rebello that Andrew did his carpentry apprenticeship under Southard Miller.

[mbhenty]

You know, all this reasearch and all these publications come from somewhere, usually from a book written by someone who got it from another book written by someone who got it from a newspaper. Or they may have come from a very responsible person who retrieved it from an absolute diluted first hand source.

TINA or I may say, "you can find it in Rebello" etc. Where did REBELLO find it. Fortunately, I know MR. REBELLO and find him an absolute general in getting the facts right, thus I have great trust in his book, but, but, and again, but.....where did he find it. I'm sure Mr Borden didn't tell him.


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As for KAT'S question about where I found my information, my "source". Well, it may be a suspicious one. My source came from an unfinished book. The working title was "The Guilt Behind Innocence." This was a novel I was writhing back in the 80s but never finished.

I pulled the information in my above post about Borden's mills and banks from my unfinished novel.

Where did I get it? Well, at the time, over 20 years ago, I was careful to get it right. So I went to my library, PEARSON, RADIN, SULLIVAN, LINCOLN.

Did they get it right?
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So, the answer to your question KAT.........who is my source, well.............., I am.

Sadly, when all is said and done, many sources are not good enough, but it is what we are left with and we trust that they got it right.

In the end, if you want the truth, go to the first hand source.

Go as far back as you can.

[Tina-Kate]

Just call me, Tina (You-Can-Find-It-in-Rebello) Kate.



BTW---Rebello's pretty good at listing his sources.

I'm largely unable to list mine because I have no internet @ home.

[mbhenty]

Yes TINA:

Hope you don't think I was placing you on the Hot Seat.

I was just making the point that "we all" find out information somewhere, and we trust authors such as Radin or Rebello to get it right.

Short cuts must be taken. We can't always go to the absolute first hand source every time we open our mouths, so these author's works are ready reference, thus quotes are given and assumed correct.

So, if you feel like you were on the hot seat, just look to your left. You will find it is a very long hot bench and I am sitting right beside you.

[Tina-Kate]

No, it's cool.

[mbhenty]

Yes KAT:

By the time of his death Andrew Borden was no longer on the Board of the Globe Manufacturing. (city directory 1892)

Hoffman does mention that Borden was on the board of directors at the Union Savings Bank, but though that is true, he fails to mention more importantly that he was the President of the Union Savings.


When I began writing my novel I had only limited knowledge on the Borden case, mostly from reading the popular books that were on the market at the time. Books like Radin, Lincoln and Pearson were held in high regard in the 60s through out the 70s. Thus, that is where I retrieved most of my facts. So, the information I gave above came from one of those three authors.

Please understand that any errors which were retrieved from those books would become absorbed, accepted and rightfully so, since after all my book was all fiction.

[Kat]

Well, the reason I asked is because I have trouble finding this kind of bio material on Andrew Jackson Borden. I think it's odd there is no life story on him.
While working for The Hatchet on Neilson Caplain's contributions, I found info scattered all over the place - Peck&Earl, Fenner, Hurd, Phillips, etc. on the history of Fall River- so yes I agree about sources - and where do we draw the line- and the final say might be the earliest record, even, but maybe not.

I checked Denise Noe's works because she had written about his character- I looked at back issues of The Hatchet, the LBQ, Knowlton Papers, and as I mentioned, have looked in the near past at the *History* books. No real info on Andrew Borden's life and achievements.

Maybe I missed something. I have 30,000 posts, going back to *cellar-dwellers at dark rose.* I don't really recall the authors anymore- others give their info and give them as source- for each to decide what they think.