Questions about Andrew

Ad · Post by Ad » Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:18 pm

I have a few questions running through my head this morning:

-After Abby and Andrew’s heads where removed boiled and examined, were they interred with the bodies at burial?

-Was Andrew’s Prince Albert coat buried with him?

-Was there a coffee table in front of the couch in the sitting room?

-Was Andrew standing when hit?

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:29 pm

I think he was buried in some sort of suit, not sure if it is his prince albert coat or not. I don't ever recollect seeing a table in front of the couch.

However he was sleeping on the couch when he was killed. To me, it would be kind of difficult to kill someone on a couch with a table in front of it, given the violence of the crime. But anything is possible. The killer would have probably moved the table, Andrew might have woken up if a piece of furniture was being moved.

Let me take alook at crime scene photos and see if there is a table.

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:36 pm

Went to look at the crime scene photos, and nope, don't see a coffee table. I looked at all six pictures and it doensn't even look like it is even in the middle of the room. There was alot of wide shots, and I didn't see on.

Maybe it's up against the wall across the room from the couch?

Jeff · Post by **Jeff** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 2:36 pm

The skulls were buried at the their graves, but were put into a small box
and buried only about 3 ft deep.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Fri Mar 07, 2008 9:35 pm

The skulls are in two small boxes over the spot heads would be found normally over their coffins in Oak Grove. Yes, there was a table in the sitting room. In crime scene photos you can see it pushed up to one side of the mantel with a boater hat and a stack of books on it. I believe it was a table which an oil lamp was generally placed in the room as needed. Frankly, I think the Prince Albert coat which was found on the head of the sofa in the sitting room full of blood near Andrew's head was cleaned and used by Winward to lay Andrew out in because we never hear about it again nor does it appear in the inventory of items on the cellar floor of clothing which John had buried.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 4:09 am

I was re-interested in Prof. Starrs since the other topic on him came up and did some looking around.
I found this item:
Taunton Daily Gazette, Tuesday, October 26, 1993

Scientists say they've found Borden skulls

[partial]
. . .The heads, removed from the bodies so they could be used as evidence in Lizzie's trial one year after her father and stepmother were killed, are buried with the bodies, but at their feet and not in caskets, the scientists believe.
. . .

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 4:26 am

Table? There are some references. Others can probably find more?
[This almost sounds hypothetical]:
Dr. Draper
Trial
1066
A. I think your question involved also the appearance of the blood spots on the wall?

Q. Yes, sir. If there were no spots on the carpet in front of the sofa, and if there was a table standing within a short distance of the front of the sofa with articles upon it readily spotted with blood, and if upon that carpet and upon that table were objects upon which no spots of blood were found, would that help you still further in your opinion as to the direction in which the blows were given?
A. In a measure. It would not be incredible, though it would be extraordinary, I think, that the table and the articles on it should escape some spots of blood under those conditions.

Q. If the blow was given from right to left would not you naturally expect that the carpet and the table in view of the fact that these spots were found in such large numbers on the wall, would have been spattered?
A. I should think it would.
_________

1707
Robinson Closing:
. . .and that is agreed to by all the doctors in every respect: they all put the murderer of Mrs. Borden astride the body, and they all told you and you all know it from your knowledge and common sense, that a murder could not have been committed under those circumstances striking into a skull filled with blood, flying in Mr. Borden's case from the severed carotid artery, flying all over the parlor door, flying upon the hinge of the kitchen door, and not flying on that table that stood close by because the assassin as he stood there at the head of Mr. Borden was striking right across in this way and not striking off there, because the head was not off there: the table stood on the right and did not happen to receive any of the spots, but the person of the assailant in both cases must have been thoroughly covered and spattered. So say all the doctors, every one of them.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 9:14 am

Looks like another call to Prof. Starrs is in order as last summer he said the skulls were in some sort of container (box) and were placed over the spot where the heads would have been but at a depth of maybe 2 1/2-3 feet. . The boxes show on the scans. Makes sense to me- digging a hole and tossing a skull in makes no sense aesthetically. Stay tuned. The Taunton Gazette has made mistakes before.

william · Post by **william** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 11:28 am

Hi Shelley,
I employed ground radar as a tool in my occupation for many years.

Ground radar would only disclose the fact that the ground was disturbed. It ccnnot distinguish the configuration of objects. Therefore it would be impossible to determine whether the skulls were enclosed within a box or not.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 2:19 pm

Yes, I saw the scans, and when I said"some sort of container"- the shadowy dark print-outs for the spots of soil disturbance were regularly shaped, and there were TWO of them with an impression of size which would be consistent with something containing a human skull. There was also some secrecy in NOT leaking the exact whereabouts to the newspapers for the really genuine fear that some nutcase would come dig them up for a lark- or something sinister. To quote Starrs, "This appears to be a good possibility for the skull burials"- based on size, depth and placement. In the end he was not allowed to dig them up for forensic examination so, nothing more is going to be gained from them which will shed any light on the case.
He was also able to determine that the lid to Mr. Borden's coffin has been compromised- caved in were his exact words. Abby Borden's at the time, was intact. I would think, given the era, either a wooden or metal box was used to contain the skulls. I cannot imagine for an instant that they would casually have been tossed into an open hole and hastily covered up. More interestingly, I would suspect that Emma and Lizzie gave the direction as to what was to be done with the skulls and were surely approached or told about the fate of them. It is even possible the two sisters were present at the interment in 1893. Body parts are important things after all!

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 7:58 pm

I've been reading about 14 news articles so far on Prof Starrs and Arnold Brown and the Conference and the brou-ha-ha about the skulls and the discussion of "security measures"- so far it has not been Starrs opinion- but rather Stan Smith whose equiptment was used. It was Geophysical Survey Systems of New Salem, N.H. Apparently Smith read the monitor and was one who gave the opinions.
I'm not finished reading the background yet. But no one said the skulls were "casually" "tossed" into the graves. Also, do we know when they were buried?

Harry, Stef and I met a neat character in Newport who claimed kinship by marriage to Dr. Dolan and is positive Dolan had those skulls a while. We weren't sure if we believed it, many summers ago.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Sat Mar 08, 2008 11:08 pm

I know that nobody said that the skulls were tossed into a grave- but the question arose that how could anyone say from looking at the scans that they were in boxes? And we can only deduce from the practices of the era, and the fact that the scan equipment did produce two distinct shapes, that a container of some sort must have been used. A human skull would, buried unprotected, have disintegrated many years ago and the soil surrounding it would have settled around it. Inasmuch as coffins of the period were either wooden, occasionally copper, zinc, or even cast iron (and there is a nice article about those on Find A Grave) -logic would follow that the skulls were placed in something like a cube or canister of a similar material to have it hold up to some degree. Starrs would like to revisit the scene and repeat some of the procedures. As far as I know, none of his scans have been published for public consumption.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 3:09 am

I've finished the rest of the articles. That was 7 more, totalling 22.
Up to the time I left off, Starrs did not announce anything about the results he had gleaned. I had the feeling he was waiting to speak at the Conference and also he had a gig at the Geological Society of America in Boston "presenting some of his Borden results..." - Pro-Jo, (probably October 26), 1993 by C. Eugene Emery, Jr.

I wasn't at the Conference, nor at the Geological Society of America lecture.

After the Conference, but still 1992, multiple news item "Did Lizzie Borden Really Take An Ax and Give Her Mother 49 Whacks?" by Edger Allen Beem: "In February, Starrs hired a geophysicist to survey the Borden grave with subsurface radar in hopes of determining whether the murder victims' disarticulated skulls were interred with their bodies. The radar profile revealed that the grave sites had been disturbed, but Starrs could not tell whether the disturbances were the result of digging a second grave to bury the skulls or were just depressions caused by the coffins collapsing and the earth settling."

The Orange County Register of Wed. 5 Aug. 1992 by Anne Stuart says Starrs "announced his findings at a three-day conference"...that the skulls as evidence "disappeared".."no record of their final resting place." He was now ""sure...'the skulls are buried...about three feet above the rest of the remains of the Bordens.'"

That was the first comment from him about his results, on August 5th.

In The Chronical of Higher Education no date, 1992, by Caroline Mooney, Fall River, MA. says Prof. Starrs "determined that their skulls- which had disappeared after being exhibited during the trial- had later been buried."

In October 26, 1993, Pro-Jo, by C. Eugene Emery, Jr., says Starrs maintains "it is now clear that the skulls of Lizzie Borden's parents are buried just above their torsos in Oak Grove Cemetery."- [quote from paper- not to be confused with quote from Starrs.]

Fall River Herald News no date, 1993 by Richard Oliveira says that Starrs wants to "determine whether he may exhume the 'missing skulls' which he says lie near the bodies in Oak Grove Cemetery."...His "radar methods used in 1992 in Oak Grove Cemetery concluded that the skulls are resting beside the bodies."

New Bedford Standard Times of November 7, 1993, by Mike Mello, writing on Prof. Starrs 1). skulls "buried seperate from the bodies and closer to the ground's surface." and 2). "buried apart from the bodies."

The Fall River Herald News November 12, 1993 by John Moss about Prof Starrs and the skulls quoted: "'The missing skulls,' which he [Starrs] says lie near the other remains in Oak Grove Cemetery."

Last reference Fall River Herald News November 15, 1993, titled "Let Bordens rest in peace" references Starrs and the skulls at the end of the piece thusly: "(The skulls had been detached during autopsies and used in Lizzie's murder trial. Their whereabouts after the trial were never recorded.)"

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 3:12 am

Also, do we know when the skulls were buried?
I don't know that Emma and Lizzie can be a part of that unless we know when that happened. Did Starrs know that? It doesn't sound like he did- it seems he first wanted to know if they had been.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 3:19 am

BTW: The Taunton paper I first quoted falls on the same date as one of the later news items I just posted, above: October 26, 1993.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 10:41 am

I have never found anything stating when the skulls were buried and there is no record in the Oak Grove office (or at least none the public gets to see). I daresay no attention was probably desired at the time to the fact that the skulls were being buried. I would, however be pretty certain Emma and Lizzie were told by somebody. Len and Ed Thibaut went out to the scanning session with Starrs, and I recall there was plenty of talk about not divulging where the skulls were for security reasons- and I suspect Prof. Starrs wanted to save his big bang for the conference and the Press. My last conversation with him was July 2007 when he was to be a speaker at the now aborted conference 2008. He has retired, but is reachable at his George Washington University address, where I gather he pops in from time to time. At the last conversation he seemed inclined towards those two areas being the probable burial sites for the two skulls. Back in 1992 he pointed these out to me with his finger on one of the scans while we were waiting to film Hash and Rehash ( a peculiar documentary to be sure). So, I suppose anyone can speak to Dr. Starrs if they want more information. My primary interest was in determining the direction of the bodies as they lay in their graves, and I am satisfied with the answers obtained on that subject. I am also satisfied the skulls were buried. If John Morse buried the clothing cut off the corpses immediately as they contained bits of brain matter - I am sure the entire skulls would have received as reverent a treatment. Now, what I want to know is what became of the sliver of skull which was scooped up off the cellar floor and put in the pocket of one of the officials on August 4th?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:49 am

Shelley writes, partial:

Now, what I want to know is what became of the sliver of skull which was scooped up off the cellar floor and put in the pocket of one of the officials on August 4th?

Here is the citation:
W.S., 42:
"ALBERT E. CHASE

Fall River, Mass. August 5, 1892. The following articles and wearing apparel were this afternoon taken from a washtub in the cellar wash room of the Borden House by orders of the City Marshal and Medical Examiner, and were buried under my direction in the yard back of the barn.

1 sofa pillow and tidy, one large piece of Brussels carpet, one roll of cotton batting, one sheet and several pieces of cotton cloth, three towels, one napkin, one chemise, one dress, one pair drawers, one skirt, two aprons, one hair braid and several pieces of hair from Mrs. Borden’s head from five to eight inches long, one neck tie, one truss, one piece of black silk braid or watch guard.

I also found mixed in with the hair of Mrs. Borden a piece of bone, which from it nature I took to be a piece of Mrs. Borden’s skull, it was cut so smooth, that I thought it might be of use in determining what kind of instrument was used, as the bone and hair both had the appearance of being cut with a very sharp instrument; I gave this piece of bone to Dr. Dolan.

About the middle of the next week Dr. Dolan ordered all the articles dug up. After taking out pieces of clothing and of the carpet, they were ordered buried again. This time they were all put in a box."

--It might have been on the 5th. But I had not thought of it being taken away in someone's pocket. Hmmm...

[Edit only for misspelling]

SallyG · Post by **SallyG** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 9:07 am

Perhaps it's been covered already, but what became of the articles that were buried?

It's interesting that even at that point in time, evidence was buried in the backyard...!!!

I like to think that if we had the investigative abilities at the time of the murders that we do now, the case could have been solved quickly.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 9:34 am

I must try to find out where I saw this recently. But the sentence actually said that it was taken away carefully in someone's pocket. I will dig this out and get back to you . It must be in the Preliminary somewhere as that as where I was reading last week.

Ad · Post by Ad » Mon Mar 10, 2008 1:26 pm

Kat - Partial Quote:
About the middle of the next week Dr. Dolan ordered all the articles dug up. After taking out pieces of clothing and of the carpet, they were ordered buried again. This time they were all put in a box."

Do we know whatever became of the articles that were put back in the box and reburied? I'm sure that they were dug up again at some point; but where are they now? Do we know?

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 6:22 pm

That's the 60,000 dollar question!

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Tue Mar 11, 2008 3:29 am

The HH was taken out in a pocket after wrapping.
The bone very well might have been taken out the same way. It's a reasonable supposition, I think. I've read the prelim 5 times but don't remember that it is written in there just so.

The stuff was buried against Dr. Dolan's orders so someone may want to check what he had to say about the articles being dug up again finally and this time kept for evidence.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Tue Mar 11, 2008 7:51 am

Was there an official named Chace? That's the name that sticks in my head as the man who wrapped up that piece of skull and put it in his pocket. I was reading this just last week and can't find the source now,

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Tue Mar 11, 2008 8:35 am

It appears in the Fall River Herald of August 9, 1892, "Inquest Begun":

"... On the day they buried the blood-stained clothes, I noticed that they were about to bury a piece of the skull which had been cut away from the head of one of the victims by the axe of the murderer. I told Officer Chace to preserve it. He wrapped it up in a piece of paper and is carrying it around with him. ..."

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Tue Mar 11, 2008 11:15 am

YAY !! Harry comes through in aces again! Thanks! Boy, I needed validation today. I went to the dentist this morning at 8 a.m.thinking it was Monday, March 13th and got a vacant stare. I thought I must be losing my marbles. Okay, good, I have some marbles left. . . .

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 9:19 pm

But then where did you read it if you thought it was Prelim and it turned out to be the newspaper? Just curious. Don't you want to know? Maybe it is the Sourcebook?

Who was it told Chace, Har?

Thanks Harry! Now we need the rest of the story about the stuff that was buried.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 9:29 pm

I would like to know, yes, . I recalled Chace's name and the pocket story. Some days I forget what I had for lunch. As for the clothes, being dug up twice, maybe they were held for evidence in the box until after the trial was over. Good thing Lizzie did not get hold of them- she might have chucked 'em in the stove with that dress on Sunday! And I think it highly probable Andrew's suit he had on when he was killed was cleaned by Winward and used to lay Andrew out in and for his burial. We never hear of it again. And I sure would love to know more about those 2 aprons in that pile!

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Thu Mar 13, 2008 9:49 pm

It was contained in an interview with Alderman Beattie. It is in the Sourcebook as well, page 39. The entire article reads as follows:

"WE'VE GOT IT.

Ald. Beattie Gives His Views On
The Murder Mystery.

"I understand, " said a reporter to Ald. John Beattie, "that you have a theory regarding this mystery which gives some promise of its solution."
He was at the police headquarters today, the apparent object being to impress upon the powers that be that his theory - it is his only - might have been very useful to the police at an earlier stage of the game.
"Well," he said, as he answered somewhat shyly to the line thrown out, "my theory - and it is mine alone - is one formed from the circumstances of the case. The brain which devised this crime was cunning enough to devise beforehand the means to escape detection. Supposing it was a woman, she was cunning enough to wear a loose wrapper which would have covered her clothes and gloves which would have protected her hands from the stains of blood. If so, there was time to burn both wrapper and gloves in the hot ironing fire which is known to have been burning in the kitchen on the day of the tragedy. The ashes would have shown whether or not such material was consumed in the kitchen stove.
"Again, it is hard to believe that the murderer, if there was one, escaped by the side door. He might have gone out the cellar door, as a matter of fact, and escaped by scaling the fence in the rear of the yard. On the day they buried the blood-stained clothes, I noticed that they were about to bury a piece of the skull which had been cut away from the head of one of the victims by the axe of the murderer. I told Officer Chace to preserve it. He wrapped it up in a piece of paper and is carrying it around with him. The appearance of that portion of its surface which was cleanly cut by the axe might give some clue as to the exact nature of the weapon in regard to the smoothness of its blade or the cleanness of the blade.
"The police sealed up nothing on the day of the murder. Had they sealed up the cellar door, placed two officers in the house with instructions to examine everything and note what went on there, told the inmates to keep quiet and allowed absolutely no one to enter the house for the time being, some definite action might have been taken before this - an arrest made possibly."

Ald. Beattie seemed to like to poke his nose in police business. He was also involved in the Manchester murder.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 3:31 am

Thanks Har! Once again.

Here is the Boston Globe for those asking about the rest of the bloody clothes etc. The first dig-up:

August 8, 1892
...This afternoon at 3 o'clock, while the vicinity of the Borden home was entirely unfrequented except by the guard of police, Dr. Dolan, the medical examiner, drove up in his buggy and alighted at the door.

He reconnoitered the yard and then sent David Keefe for the man who buried the garments worn by both victims when the crime was committed, together with the crimsoned carpeting saturated with the blood as it flowed from Mrs. Borden's wounds.

Mr. Keefe quickly found the laborer who did the work, and in the meantime the medical examiner went personally to each police officer on duty about and in the yard of the residence.

He told them that his presence there was to be unknown to any one, that under no condition did he want his actions observed, and impressed upon them to use all vigilance, and prevent not only any one from entering the yard, but he desired all passers-by to be kept from pausing and gazing into the yard.

When Keefe came back with the man the place of the interment of the clothes was quickly found, and
The Laborer and the Physician,

standing anxiously over him, removed the few feet of earth covering the garments.

Dr. Dolan took each particle of clothing and stained effects of the deceased persons out and carefully scrutinized them.

Besides the clothing, there were certain stained clothes, which had been used to cover the bodies upon their discovery Thursday forenoon, and also the pieces of carpeting soaked with the life blood of the victims.

The doctor went over them all until he had selected such as he thought would serve his purpose.

Then he cut off a large piece of the coat and shirt worn by Mr. Borden when he was found upon the sofa, and with his scissors clipped off a piece of the waist of the dress worn by Mrs. Borden when killed, all specimens matted with the blood of the victims.

The doctor proceeded in a like manner to take part of a large piece of carpeting cut from the spare bedroom, fairly saturated with the crimson fluid.

These were eminently satisfactory to the examiner, and he ordered Keefe to procure a box for their reception.

All the rest of the clothing was again buried in the former condition.

When Keefe returned with an ordinary pasteboard box, such as a pair of shoes are commonly sold in, Dr. Dolan placed the evidence he had just obtained in it, and, with the box innocently wrapped in manila paper, departed in his carriage.

The doctor repeated his injunctions to all the witnesses of the proceedings to by no means allow it to be made public.

During the operation John V. Morse, who had paid $5 to have the garments buried, came out to see what was going on, but he was ordered back by an officer.

There is but one construction to be put upon this and there can reasonably and logically be but one motive for unearthing the bloody clothing after allowing it to be buried.

These specimens must be intended to have some part in the examination of the spots of blood upon the axe handle found in the cellar of the Borden house.

They are wanted by the experts to whom the axe has been submitted, and it is this irrefutable evidence that will be used in deciding whether this axe found was the instrument driven into the brains of the two people.

The first examination will be to ascertain whether or not it is human blood, and Dr. Dolan has said with an apparent strong conviction that it is.

If the small red discs under the powerful microscope of the expert prove to be human corpuscles, then comes the ready determination were or were they not the blood of Mr. and Mrs. Andrew J. Borden.

The specimen secretly obtained today by Dr. Dolan will answer this question.

This is his purpose.

The medical examiner has also decided to further delay the interment of the remains in case any further examination is deemed advisable.
..........
Wednesday, August 10, 1892
Prof. Wood appeared at the station very early, in company with Medical Examiner Dolan. Shortly after the inquest was resumed the two men were admitted and were behind closed doors about 20 minutes. When they reappeared they were followed by a couple of policemen carrying a trunk containing bloody clothing and other evidences of the crime. The trunk was placed on a coupe, waiting at the door. Prof. Woods shook hands with the medical examiner and jumped into the coupe, directing the driver to go to Bowenville station. There he took the 11.03 train for Boston, and the trunk was checked for the same place.
......

Now, I believe on the 11th, Dr. Dolan found the wound in Abbie's back and wanted the rest of the debris/evidence from the crime re-dug up in order to match the wound to Abbie's clothing. And kept all of it above ground and held officially after this.

I haven't found that yet.

Anyone find that?

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 9:59 am

"Then he cut off a large piece of the coat and shirt worn by Mr. Borden when he was found upon the sofa, and with his scissors clipped off a piece of the waist of the dress worn by Mrs. Borden when killed, all specimens matted with the blood of the victims"

WOW- now that is a revelation! I wonder what happened to Andrew's trousers?

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Fri Mar 14, 2008 9:01 pm

We had debated before whether Andrew was buried in his clothes of Thursday.
I was wondering if Andrew could still be buried in those clothes (after cleaning) because if the part cut out was in the back, it would still work for a viewing.
But then it gets complicated because he was laid out for the service on the 6th and yet stored in the cemetery waiting room, and then autopsied on the 11th, and not buried until (I believe) the 16th. I don't know if he was held in a shroud until burial and by then who knows what they dressed him in.
Also, it's possible they cut out pieces from the front of his clothes because that was where most of the blood was.

Maybe after all that time, in August, he could not be dressed and was buried in a shroud.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Sat Mar 15, 2008 8:32 pm

All good questions. I thought the bodies were held in that holding tomb until August 11th when they were brought to the Ladies Comfort Station across from the office for the full autopsy. Do we know the date they were buried at last- the headless cadavers? His jacket was not being worn when he was killed, it was behind his head on the arm of the sofa, so the blood may have been on the back of the Prince Albert, in which case, he might have still been buried in it. I am not sure if shrouds were still the popular burial custom by 1892 as they were earlier in the 19th century. I was standing over the graves this afternoon wondering about these same questions. Here is a link to a reputable site with information on shrouds, http://www.victoriana.com/VictorianPeriod/mourning.htm

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Sat Mar 15, 2008 8:45 pm

Egyptian revival Oak Grove holding tomb (holds 6 coffins but now used to store lawn mowers. Has three shelves on each side. One of several on the grounds, this one housed the Bordens in the earthy coolness of the hill cavern.

Ladies Comfort Station now used as a break room for the cemetery workers

The lavatory area , still tiled, probably the room the doctors used to wash up before and after the autopsies.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 12:21 am

Shelley @ Sat Mar 15, 2008 8:32 pm wrote:All good questions. I thought the bodies were held in that holding tomb until August 11th when they were brought to the Ladies Comfort Station across from the office for the full autopsy. Do we know the date they were buried at last- the headless cadavers? His jacket was not being worn when he was killed, it was behind his head on the arm of the sofa, so the blood may have been on the back of the Prince Albert, in which case, he might have still been buried in it. I am not sure if shrouds were still the popular burial custom by 1892 as they were earlier in the 19th century. I was standing over the graves this afternoon wondering about these same questions. Here is a link to a reputable site with information on shrouds, http://www.victoriana.com/VictorianPeriod/mourning.htm

--italics mine

Yes autopsied in the waiting room.
BTW: Since Andrew had a cardigan-type jacket on when killed and his Prince Albert- his outdoor coat- was under his head. I can't tell if you are referring to his "jacket" as the Prince Albert.

Thanks. But I've already looked up shrouds and saved info and pictures on them on the Forum we had before this one.

In my post here I said I believed they were buried on the 16th.
Here is Dr. Dolan at the prelim.
Dr. Dolan
page 184
Q. Have those bodies been interred?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. When?
A. I do not know just what date it was; I think it was a week last Tuesday.

The week of the Prelim was the 25th of August +, so that would take us back to Tuesday the 16th. I found a notation in the Fall River Globe that might imply it was the morning of the 17th. The news item of the 17th includes happenings on the 15th and 16th as well, tho.

Here is the Evening Standard on the burial:

"Wednesday, August 17th, 1892 Page 1

THE GREAT TRAGEDY.

Burial of the Victims in the
Borden Family Lot.

Rumors of Eminent Lawyers Being
Engaged for Defence.

Miss Borden's Counsel Active in His
Efforts in Her Behalf.

[Special Dispatch.]
Fall River, Aug. 17. --- The bodies of Andrew J. Borden and his wife, which have been in the receiving tomb at Oak Grove cemetery since the funeral, were buried in the family lot this morning at 8 o'clock. Supt. Morrill and his men did the work, placing Mr. Borden's body between those of his two wives. There was no crowd and no one present to witness the last sad rights performed by the grave-diggers. With the burial of the bodies closes the second chapter of this great tragedy."

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 12:29 am

I also found in the FR Globe on Fri. Aug. 5th, 1892 "The Butchery" this bit about Morse and the burial of the bloody stuff in the yard:

"He [Morse] also wanted to know if the bloody clothes that had been over the faces of the dead persons could not be buried."

This sounds like the napkins, maybe? Whatever, it's the first I read about what sounds like seperate cloths or "clothes" as being over the faces.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 9:33 am

Ah, good. 8 a.m. on August 17th the bodies are finally buried. That seems clear. I expect after the autopsy on the 11th , they were returned to their coffins in the holding tomb where it was cooler. The Ladies' Comfort Station would be needed during the week too. Now, Victorian burial customs being a special interest of mine, where do I find your information on shrouds? This link http://www.victoriana.com/VictorianPeriod/mourning.htm has some excellent material on other aspects, not just the shrouds, which by late in the century had gone out of fashion (especially in America).