shoplifting

[Angel]

Does someone know without having to run to a book what year Lizzie was arrested for shoplifting? I can't look it up because I'm at work.

[Tina-Kate]

Lizzie was never actually arrested for shoplifting.

The Tilden-Thurber incident happened in 1897.

[snokkums]

I was reading on the website: "Clews The historic true crime blog lizzie borden" and it states : " Though she became something of a recluse after her acquittal, Fall River's monst infamous resident was arrested in 1897- five years after the murders of Andrew and Abby Borden- for shoplifting." But the article also says: "Many books and internet articles discussing LIzzie's second brush with the law incorrectly state that it took place in 1904"

I was always under the impression that Tilden - thurber was never brought charges against or anything. I am thinking the article might be wrong; I have found a few errors in it.
So, I think you are right Tina-Kate.

[augusta]

There is a lengthy article in the 'Black & White' issue of The Hatchet that I wrote, with the goal of trying to get down to the truth of the incident. The news of the Tilden-Thurber scandal went country-wide, at least. There were newspaper articles from out west. There were contradictions in the many articles I read. Some said she stole two paintings; some said two figurines. Some differed on how it was discovered she took them, and to whom she gave one to. Even the month differed in different papers. It was a mess wading thru the articles on that.

But no, she was not arrested. They had a warrant, but before they could give it to her the matter was settled satisfactorily between Lizzie and Tilden-Thurber.

This is where Frank Spiering tells about a forced, fake confession Lizzie was supposed to have signed by the store owners. That story originally came from one of Snowe's books, I'm pretty sure. Everybody says that was a fake. I agree. But I did meet someone who knew a female relative of Tilden or Thurber, who told her that when the hurricane came (I think 1938), their safe's contents were ruined, including that supposed confession.

Kat solves the mystery of the Tilden-Thurber incident in the current issue of The Hatchet in her article "Preston Hicks Gardner" on page 25. Apparently Lizzie had given the one painting/figurine to Preston Hicks Gardner's wife, Mary. Preston Gardner was "the one who had settled the affair behind the scenes."

After the incident, Andrew Jennings said he was washing his hands of Lizzie. I don't know if he did or not, but I never saw any more references of him and Lizzie as client/attorney.

Up until a few years ago, Tilden-Thurber was still there, as it was in Lizzie's day. The year after I was last in FR, I learned it was not Tilden-Thurber anymore. The building remained but it's another business now. (I knew I should have went inside! I thought, oh, the next time I'm here. )

[snokkums]

I guess everyone wanted a story on Lizzie. I mean if the newspapers were stating different stuff was taken, they must have wanted a story, regardless of if it were true or not.

[augusta]

That's very true, Snookums. They had their Enquirer-esque reporters back then, too. It was called 'yellow journalism'.

I don't know how so many newspapers could say so many different things on the same subject. To me, there's a difference between it being a pair of paintings or a pair of figurines. Even how they found out the stuff was missing differed.

It looked like maybe a reporter had most of the story, but had some parts missing and just threw in what he/she could think of.

[Angel]

The reason I asked about the date was because if it was in 1904, that would explain why Emma finally moved out. But even if it was earlier than that, Emma was probably mortified because she preferred to keep a low profile.

[augusta]

I hadn't thought of that before, Angel. Yes, Emma probably would have been upset over that incident.

The other day I came across an interesting tidbit. Mary Brigham was a friend to both Emma and Lizzie. She had known Lizzie since childhood. When that breakup happened between Lizzie and Em in 1905, Mary Brigham dropped Lizzie. She still remained a friend of Emma's tho. Whatever it was, Mrs. Brigham couldn't tolerate it, either.

[twinsrwe]

... The other day I came across an interesting tidbit. Mary Brigham was a friend to both Emma and Lizzie. She had known Lizzie since childhood. When that breakup happened between Lizzie and Em in 1905, Mary Brigham dropped Lizzie. She still remained a friend of Emma's tho. Whatever it was, Mrs. Brigham couldn't tolerate it, either.

This is interesting. What is the source for this information?

[Tina-Kate]

The other day I came across an interesting tidbit. Mary Brigham was a friend to both Emma and Lizzie. She had known Lizzie since childhood. When that breakup happened between Lizzie and Em in 1905, Mary Brigham dropped Lizzie. She still remained a friend of Emma's tho. Whatever it was, Mrs. Brigham couldn't tolerate it, either.

On one of the TV shows...the TLC one, I *think*...Florence Brigham said her mother-in-law (Mary) was forced to stop seeing Lizzie because "...her other friends were starting to leave her alone." As in, by associating with Lizzie, Mary too was starting to get ostrasized.

BTW, Kat (or anyone else who knows), what is the source re. Preston Gardner having resolved the behind-the-scenes negotiations in the Tilden-Thurber incident...& that his wife was the recipient of the *hot* painting on porcelain? I don't think the sources were listed after that article.

[nbcatlover]

Is it me, or is there some kind of a pattern here?

Lizzie goes to Emma's friend. Alice Russell, the night before the murders with her premonitions something is going to happen...and it does.

Lizzie give Mary Gardner a "hot (stolen)" gift and Emma moves in with the Gardners.

Is there something in Emma's relationships with other women that provokes bad behavior from Lizzie? Or is Lizzie really crying out for help in her relationship with Emma from women she thinks might understand her problem?

Any thoughts on this?

Over time I'm believing more and more that Emma was one of those passive-aggressive abuser types. Do you think Lizzie is jealous of these relationships? Could Lizzie and Emma's relationship been more than sisterly?

Also, does anyone know if Thurber from Tilden-Thurber was related to the Swansea Thurbers? There always seems to be a back-story with anyone who comes to attention from involvement with Lizzie...maybe some old bad blood between the families? The story about the demand for Lizzie's confession to murder is not what normal businessmen demand...they either take the money for the goods or call the police. They usually don't resort to a form of blackmail.

[augusta]

nbcatlover, I don't believe the confession at Tilden-Thurber took place. But I don't think the lady who told my acquaintance it was lost in the hurricane lied. Just a thought, but it could have been the private papers on the settlement of the theft that was in the safe and was lost. It may have been part of the agreement to keep those papers under lock and key. Tho they didn't go to court, they may have made the agreement with Lizzie or Preston Gardner that they would pay, but keep it under wraps.

Well, that's a hot one! Was Emma and Lizzie's relationship more than sisterly? I think it was like mother (Emma) and Lizzie (Baby Lizzie). I don't think Emma would go for something sexual with the same sex. She was really shocked by something horrifying to her in 1905 when she left Maplecroft, and I think Mary Brigham knew what it was and cut off her friendship with Lizzie. I don't think Mary Brigham just blindly followed Emma. I think she knew and, like Emma, was repulsed. If Emma was so repulsed by Lizzie's goings-on in 1905, and one good guess would be lesbianism with Nance O'Neil, I think Emma would have been too much of a prude to have had any dalliances with Lizzie.

That's a really interesting thought, tho. I think we need to think outside the box if this puzzle will ever be solved. Obviously it's not something that's in circulation now, or ever was that holds the key.

Was Lizzie jealous of Emma's friends? That's another great question I hadn't heard before.

Well, Lizzie was an outgoing person. And she really strived to be accepted by the more respectable women in Fall River. She probably felt pressure all the time to keep those friendships and to make new ones. Sometimes, at least with what I've experienced, if a real close friend starts getting chummy with someone else, there is jealousy. It looks like Lizzie could have tried to get closer to Alice Russell, maybe to be on a more equal basis as Emma in her friendship with Alice. I was very surprised to read earlier that Alice Russell was more Emma's friend. It surprised me because of exactly what you said, nbcatlover - Lizzie went to Alice the night before the murders. And Lizzie also had Bridget go get her first. Why not Mrs. Churchill right next door?

Lizzie was known for giving gifts to many people. That could be her striving for acceptance.

I would think that Lizzie must have really been upset when she lost Mary Brigham as a friend, and that Emma held on to Mary. Mary had known Lizzie since childhood - they went to school together, went to the same church. They were pretty close. And Mary spent time at the Second Street house after the murders to help out Lizzie. That could have added to Lizzie not ever contacting Emma again - that we KNOW of.

Yes - I do agree, nbcatlover, that Emma was passive-aggressive. She stays in the background, her dresses are black, she looks to be a quiet spinster. What really gives her away is when she testified (inquest?) that she disliked Abby more than Lizzie.

Well, now we have two sources to Mary Brigham dumping Lizzie. Thanks for your post, Tina-Kate. I didn't know that, or had forgotten it.

My source is from the handwritten file on Mary Brigham at the Fall River Historical Society. I found it right in her file they have on her, and it was all in Michael Martins' handwriting. I made a Xerox of it when I was out there using the archive room. Since he knew Florence Brigham so well, I thought I would really pay attention to what he wrote in Mary B's file.

[nbcatlover]

Thanks for the great reply. augusta. I like to put the ideas out ther for feedback because I believe I always feel like some crucial insight in missing from my understanding of the case. That's why I keep looking at the secondary characters.

I remember telling Kat when I first joined the forum that I didn't believe the answers were in Fall River. I always believed the key to understanding these people was in the surrounding towns. Look at kfactor's search at Wheaton College. Look at Stefani's finds in Swansea. There is information about this case "out there" that has not come to public light. We just have to continue to be open to new information.

I wonder which people were the first to ostracize Mary Brigham for her continued friendship with Lizzie. I was not aware that she kept up her friendship with Emma.

[augusta]

nbcatlover - Wow! You said that when you first joined the Forum?! That's amazing. I never felt that before, but it sure is happening with the stuff Stef is finding out there. Whenever anybody would mention "Luther's Corner" I would just blip right over it and not think anything about it.

Where can I find kfactor's Wheaton College finds?

What friends were starting to turn away from Mary Brigham? I would look to the people at church first. She and Lizzie attended the same one.

If that was her reason for dumping her, tho, why did it take until 1905 - when Emma left over something intolerable? Emma must have told Mary Brigham what it was. Mary B. visited Lizzie at Maplecroft up until then.

Wouldn't that be something if we found out what that 'intolerable' thing was that made Emma leave? Could it have been that Lizzie told Emma she did it? Now that would be reason for them not communicating with each other ever again.

[nbcatlover]

augusta--here's the forum thread for Searching for Emma's Seminary:

viewtopic.php?t=2847&postdays=0&postord ... n&&start=0

There's also an article in The Hatchet--August, 2007. Also available through LuLu Presss.

[augusta]

Thanks, nbcatlover! I have that Hatchet issue but never read it yet.

[Kat]

Partial quote by Tina Kate:

BTW, Kat (or anyone else who knows), what is the source re. Preston Gardner having resolved the behind-the-scenes negotiations in the Tilden-Thurber incident...& that his wife was the recipient of the *hot* painting on porcelain? I don't think the sources were listed after that article.

I'm glad you asked. Anyone may ask my source at any time. The story that Preston Gardner had cleared things up in the background had come to my ears as a story told me, several years ago, when I wrote that long essay on Emma. Then I did find corrorboration later, when I was writing in the last Hatchet issue.

I don't wish to scan and post the one piece, because it has a private family name on it, with family information, that the Historical Society likes to keep private. We have a copy, on their letterhead. It has no date nor states who typed it. The second part reads:
Also, when Mr. Preston Garnder went into Tilden Thurber to have a picture framed, he was told it had been stolen and asked where Mr. Gardner had got it; it had been given to him by Lizzie Borden. Mrs. ___ wishes she knew what the picture looked like and asked if we knew. Mr. Garnder paid Tilden Thurber for the picture.

I will include 2 further news article, here.
But the timeline for all this is:
The "Engagement" or "Wedding Rumors" that Lizzie was to marry her cousin. The denial in the papers by Emma, 12 December 1896.
Then next is the Tilden-Thurber rumor of an arrest warrant for Lizzie Borden for shoplifting, 16 Februray 1897, only 2 months later. It's implied that the articles went missing during Lizzie's Christmas shopping expedition.
I wondered if she liked getting her name in the papers. I don't know the answer to that.
The second item tells about the wife of a banker who received a picture, in Providence, and that is Mary Gardner, Preston's wife.








[Also: It looks like the "Black & White" Hatchet issue is no longer free- as another has been substituted. Augusta (Sherry) had collected quite a lot of other news items on the affair, in that issue, as she refers to here, above, in her own post.)

[Kat]

It looks like Lizzie could have tried to get closer to Alice Russell, maybe to be on a more equal basis as Emma in her friendship with Alice. I was very surprised to read earlier that Alice Russell was more Emma's friend. It surprised me because of exactly what you said, nbcatlover - Lizzie went to Alice the night before the murders. And Lizzie also had Bridget go get her first. Why not Mrs. Churchill right next door?

--Bold by KK


Please can you say where it is that Alice was "more Emma's friend?"
Was that posted here earlier? My impression from testimony is that she was friends with both Borden girls before the tragedy. Thanks!

Trial
Emma
Q. Miss Russell was a friend of Miss Lizzie's, was she not?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. An intimate friend?
A. No, sir.

Q. A calling friend?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. One that came to see her quite fairly often?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. One that she went to see quite fairly often?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. On excellent terms?
A. On good terms.

Q. No lack of harmony between them at all?
A. Not that I know of.

Q. Were they also associated in church work together?
A. No sir, never.

Q. She and Miss Russell didn't go to that church?
A. Miss Russell went to that church, but they were not associated in church work at all.
Page 1571 / i593
~ ~ ~ ~

Alice Russell
Inquest
Q. Was that quite a frequent thing, for her to visit you?
A. She has done so more this Summer, because she has not had quite so much outside work, but we have always visited, been friends.
Q. Have you visited there a great deal?
A. Yes, sometimes perhaps I would go in quite often, and then again quite a spell I would not go.
Q. When you went in, did you see the whole family, or Miss Lizzie or Emma?
A. I saw the girls mostly.
Q. Your acquaintance was mostly with the daughters?
A. Yes Sir.
Q. Not so much with the old people?
A. No Sir.
Q. Where did you usually see them?
A. Up stairs, what they used for a sitting room usually.
Q. Which room was that?
A. What they call the guest chamber.
Q. It was used as a sitting room?
A. Generally, for them.
Q. Who used that as a sitting room?
A. The two girls.
Q. Was that where they usually sat when they were at home?
A. I think so.
Q. That is, so far as you know?
A. So far as I know.
Q. Do you recollect the last time you visited them?
A. The last time I visited them, or visited there?
Q. Either one.
147
A. I went in there, I am sure, once after Emma had gone to Fairhaven.
Q. Who were you more particularly intimate with, Emma or Lizzie, or both?
A. I dont think there was very much difference.

[Tina-Kate]

I'm glad you asked. Anyone may ask my source at any time. The story that Preston Gardner had cleared things up in the background had come to my ears as a story told me, several years ago, when I wrote that long essay on Emma. Then I did find corrorboration later, when I was writing in the last Hatchet issue...

Thanks, Kat.

I had found it unusual when no sources were listed after the article & was frustrated because I particularly wanted to know where the info was found.

[SallyG]

Not knowing what the paintings looked like as far as size and ease of transport, would Lizzie have been able to easily hide them as she left the store?

Were the pictures displayed in a place that made them easily removeable from the store?

Lizzie states she paid $16 for them...how did she come by that figure? I would have thought she would have stated she paid $50 for them, if that was their price, unless they were not marked and she really had no idea of their price.

Is it possible one of the employees was dishonest and sold Lizzie the paintings for $16 each and pocketed the money, not thinking that they would turn up again, and hoping they would not be missed? When they did turn up and they were missed, obviously all the employees claimed to know nothing.

[Kat]

Sherry's collection of stories on the incident is a good place to check- Hatchet Aug/Sept 2005. Do you have that issue? It was a free download for a year maybe?

TK, I didn't put sources last issue because basically I was writing an obituary. I don't thnk people give sources in those.
It happened that I gave the bios' of Orrin and Preston Gardner a Lizzie-slant. But my sources were pretty good, so as I say, I'm glad to be asked and able to share them.