some politicans in Lizzies day.

[snokkums]

Was looking up some things on presidents and got me thinking; who were some of the presidents in lLizzies time and what did she think of them?

Looks like Ben Harrison was the president at the tie of the murders and Mckinley was the president right after that.
and at the time of her death Hoover.

I just always wondered what she thought of them, if she even had an interest in politics at all.

[Tina-Kate]

From Len Rebello's research, we do know that Lizzie was on the voters lists once women gained the right to vote.

[snokkums]

I forgot she was part of that movement to allowwomen to vote.

[augusta]

Lizzie's lifespan covered a lot of our presidents. 1) Buchanan 1857-1861
2)Abraham Lincoln 1861-1865 3) Andrew Johnson 1865-1869 4) Ulysses S. Grant 1869 - 1877 5) Rutherford B. Hayes 1877 - 1881 6) James A. Garfield 1881 - 1881 7) Chester A. Arthur 1881 - 1885 8) Grover Cleveland 1885 - 89 and 1893-97 9) Benjamin Harrison 1889 - 1893 10) McKinley 1897 - 1901 11) Teddy Roosevelt 1901 - 1909 12) Taft 1909 - 1913 13) Woodrow Wilson 1913 - 1921 14) Warren G. Harding 1921 - 1923 14) Calvin Coolidge 1923 - 1929

Herbert Hoover was president from 1929 - 1933. Coolidge was president when Lizzie died.

I didn't know Rebello's book has the info that Lizzie was on the voter's list. I would have thought she would be. She was known for liking to try new things, and from the 32-year oppression of her father's way of life I'd think she would have been very much for the women's right to vote. I don't think she was active in the Womens' Movement, tho. She might have wanted to be, but I would think she would not want to go so public.

During Lizzie's lifetime, the presidential election of 1912 was a milestone. It was the first modern election and is considered the birth of modern politics. There is a new book out on that called "Four Hats in the Ring" by Lewis L. Gould.

[Kat]

Cool info, thanks Sherry!

Snokkums,
In Rebello, he has a notation that Louis Howe (the President's right hand man) had a theory that he supposedly shared with Roosevelt (pg. 138):

Oursler, Jr., Fulton, "Behold This Dreamer! An Autobiography," Boston: Little, Brown and Company, 1964, 366-367.

Fulton Oursler, in his autobiography, recalled a conversation he had with Louis Howe, Franklin D. Roosevelt's closest political advisor and friend. Mr. Howe was married to
Grace Borden Hartley of Fall River. She was a cousin of Lizzie's and a major benefactor of Lizzie's estate. Mr. Howe told Fulton that "Lizzy"[sic] didn't kill her parents. It was Emma who "stole back from Marion"[Massachusetts] and killed Abby and Andrew. Emma was "crazy" and suffered from "epileptic fits" according to Mr. Howe. "Lizzy discovered Emma and sent her back to Marion."

Fulton later made arrangements to have his friend Edmund Pearson and Louis Howe meet to discuss the Borden murders. Mr. Pearson did not agree with Howe's theory according to Fulton Oursler. Mr. Howe's theory appeared in Edmund Pearson's "Legends of Lizzie" in the New Yorker, April 22, 1933.

Note: Lizzie is spelled as it appears in "Behold This Dreamer." Marion, Massachusetts, is a small town approximately 22 miles east of Fall River. Emma was visiting with Helen Brownell in Fairhaven, not Marion, at the time of the murders.

--Also, page 196 Rebello says: "President Theodore Roosevelt appointed Moody Secretary of the United States Navy in 1902." --Moody was one of the prosecutors in the Borden case.

[Tina-Kate]

Tonight (Monday, May 12th) on American Experience (PBS, 9:00 p.m. est) the show is about FDR.

I wonder if they will show Louis Howe. I'm going to watch.

I think it was in Rebello there was a blurb that FDR laughed the 1st time he heard the "Lizzie Borden took an axe..." doggerel.

[Tina-Kate]

The American Experience show on FDR was very enjoyable. It was merely a Part I of II, however. And wouldn't you know my VCR ran out of tape just as it started talking about Louis Howe.

The poor man was described as being "gnome-like, dirty & smelly". Another JVM type?

He was just as instrumental apparently, in goading Eleanor toward her own political life.

One wonders about his wife, Lizzie's cousin Grace Hartley Howe, and the various roles she herself might have played in the politics of the day.

[Kat]

Yes I watched that on-and-off, switching channels and caught the reference to Louis Howe. Was it FDR's mother who was being quoted, or the opinion of the talking head, do you recall?
I was appalled, because then I waited for Howe's name to be lifted up from that description, and his character rehabilitated and it never was, that I heard. I did watch it "scattershot" I will admit. But I don't think they included him much at all.
Thanks for the heads-up, TK!

[Tina-Kate]

You're welcome. I'm going to be sure to watch next week too. It was really interesting. For instance, I didn't know FDR had rescued that crumbling Victorian Spa town in Georgia & set it up as a retreat for polio sufferers.

I can't recall who called Louis Howe "dirty," etc. I know at least 2 people had been quoted, one said he smoked cigars & that was part of his odor. You're right, they didn't seem to talk about him in a positive way at all, other than if you include he was encouraging to Eleanor. I was really hoping for more info & (hope against hope) even a snippet about Grace!

[doug65oh]

This should clear the mud a bit about who said what. Just do a word search on this page for Howe and you'll find quite a few references to Louis at http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/presidents ... cript.html.

Curtis Roosevelt was/is FDR's grandson. The only thing you might bear in mind is that as far as Louis Howe is concerned, his are at least partly the remembrances of a rather young child. (Curtis was born ca. 1930.)

[Kat]

Thanks Doug, that's cool- a transcript!

Geoffrey Ward: Party regulars couldn't stand him [FDR]. They thought he was rich, spoiled, unwilling to compromise or cooperate -- a snob.

David McCullough: [voice-over] "This fellow is still young," one of them said, "Wouldn't it be safer to drown him before he grows up?" To survive, Franklin would need help, and he turned to a shrewd, strange-looking reporter, Louis Howe.

Curtis Roosevelt: I remember the smell of Louis Howe more than anything else -- a gnome, gaunt, short wispy hair -- I mean, enough to scare a child, and I was.

Blance Wiesen Cook: He's dirty. He never showers or bathes enough. He smokes these dreadful, smelly Sweet Caporal cigarettes and the ashes, you know, sort of coat his vest and tie.

David McCullough: [voice-over] Franklin's mother especially disliked him. "That dirty little man," she called him. Eleanor, too, disapproved.

Blance Wiesen Cook: They want him out. He represents the worst, the smelliest, you know, stuff of politics. He drinks, he smokes, he curses. He's a pain. Out of there.

Curtis Roosevelt: But still Louis Howe was a seasoned politician. As you might say, he knew where all the bodies were buried, and F.D.R. needed to know.

David McCullough: [voice-over] Together Howe and Franklin formed one of the oddest alliances in American political history. It would last until Howe's death in 1936. "I was so impressed with Franklin Roosevelt," Howe liked to say of their first meeting, "I thought then nothing but an accident could keep him from becoming president of the United States.

[Kat]

Then they showed the worst photo of Howe you could possibly imagine. He knew he was not attractive. But Grace found something in him to like, and maybe love...

[Kat]

I was looking for them to mention Ruby Cameron!
Wouldn't that have made my day!?

[Tina-Kate]

O wow! Thank you, Doug! (& Kat!)

Sweet Caporal cigarettes, NOT cigars.

"...he knew where all the bodies were buried..." And he thought Emma dunnit. Hmmm...

[doug65oh]

Here's a couple of sites with a bit more on Louis Howe, at http://www.nps.gov/archive/elro/glossary/howe-louis.htm and http://www.nndb.com/people/075/000111739/

It appears that whatever distaste he inspired in Eleanor Roosevelt was temporary. As for Mrs. R. the elder...who's to say?

[Tina-Kate]

Thanks again, Doug.

Gosh...I wonder why nothing ever mentions his wife?

[Tina-Kate]

Ah, here's a brief mention of Grace---

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/eleanor/pe ... nde04.html

[Tina-Kate]

Oooh! Also found THIS---

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic ... 43,00.html

Sounds like she may have very much welcomed Lizzie's legacy to her.

[Kat]

I do think it was cigars, TK, and the transcription might possibly have made a mistake. I told Harry the story of the Howe section I saw on TV and also said cigars. We know they drop ash...

[doug65oh]

Just found this link and it might be relevant here or at the very least interesting - a link to what appears to be the full text of a manuscript titled FDR: My Exploited Father-In-Law. The writer is Curtis B. Dall, first husband to the Roosevelts' eldest daughter Anna and father of the gentleman quoted on the PBS program the other evening. (Curtis Roosevelt at birth was Curtis Dall.) http://www.fdrlibrary.marist.edu/child1.html

I don't offhand recall the circumstances of the name change, but I've heard at least two stories, both of which do make at least some sense in context. One pins it on Curtis' grandmother, the other on Curtis himself.

[augusta]

Thanks for all the links, Doug, Tina-Kate and Kat! There's an article on Grace Howe in an old LBQ. Her photo is surprising, when you realize what her husband looked like. And we thought Andrew and Abby were an unlikely pair!

Grace looks tall and manly.

Louis Howe was sick during his last years, I think. That could play in his appearance. So he cursed and smelled. Well, that's giving us unvarnished characteristics. I don't think I'll ever look at his photo in quite the same way again.

[doug65oh]

Aha! The Sweet Caporal mystery solved. It was a brand of cigarette. See http://library.duke.edu/digitalcollecti ... 016f/pg.1/ for illustrations of the packaging.

Here's another link with images of some vintage World War II era Sweet Caporal cigarette cards, at http://www.skytamer.com/3.1.A.C271A.htm

[Kat]

I figured you'd find out about that...


You did a good job knowing about that transcript...

[doug65oh]

Well, in that particular instance I had a little help from the folks at PBS – and it helped too that I’d seen the same program myself so had some inkling where to hunt. They’re usually very good about posting transcriptions and such, especially if the program is current. Typographical errors do happen though. The correct spelling for the name of the one author cited, for instance, is Blanche Wiesen Cook – they flubbed it in the transcription.

[Kat]

Usually when I state what I recall, with confidence, I might find out it was a bit different than I thought!
I'll tell you what tho: I learn more from my mistakes than I do from what I think I know.

[doug65oh]

Oh I do that myself as often as not. Usually I find that what I run into is merely a case in which the information is letter-perfect, but the source isn’t always the right one.

In re: the Roosevelt grandson tho it was the opposite. I recall first reading merely scant information about him in a book published when I was in grade school 30+ years ago – namely the bare facts: that he was a son born of the eldest Roosevelt daughter (Anna) during her marriage to Curtis B. Dall. The book mentioned that Anna was married several times (to Dall, a feller name of Boettiger, and lastly to a feller with the surname Halstead.) The book also spilled the beans on a nickname young Curtis apparently earned: "Buzzy".

There wasn’t a peep in the book though about the grandson taking the surname Roosevelt. I first heard about that not too long ago...a year or two at most.

The book in question was called Facts About the Presidents, written by Joseph Nathan Kane in the middle ‘70s or so. The last President in the book was Carter. That’s all I remember, except that the book split in two after about five years of regular use. I had to throw it out.

So I guess it is possible for old dogs to learn a new trick or two now and then - or at least get an old trick straight again after so many years!

How long was Grace Howe postmistress in Fall River? I've not been able to find that mentioned anywhere.

[Shelley]

This is a paragraph from a 2004 FR Herald story on Grace

"After Howe’s husband died, she would begin a 15-year career as a U.S. Postal Service local postmaster in Fall River, the first female to hold such a position. Howe served for a year as acting postmaster, and then after she had been assured that career postal employees could not accept the post without loss of their pension rights, was sworn in as permanent postmaster.

Howe had been congratulated by local, state and national leaders. She remained in that position until her retirement in 1951, at age 77."

[doug65oh]

Thanks, Shelley! If the article you're quoting from there was published in March, 2004, I just found the whole thing at http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?news ... 9784&rfi=6

[Kat]

I recall that item. That was part of a series of famous Fall River Women, I believe. There should be several more, like a week apart?
Thanks for the link!

[Kat]

Thanks, Shelley! If the article you're quoting from there was published in March, 2004, I just found the whole thing at http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?news ... 9784&rfi=6

A snippet from the article:However, Howe would be cut off unless she followed his terms to the letter.

She was not to marry a Borden or furnish them with any money or property and was to never live with a Borden, except for her mother.

Hey Doug-Oh!
I was doing a cursory examination of some Borden genealogy and found that Grace (Hartley) Howe's mother, Mary, was the daughter of Cook Borden. Of course, Cook is brother to Abraham and to the infamous Ladowick Borden as well, among others.

Now Cook had married a Borden! She was Mary A. Bessey, who was the daughter of Silas and Avis (Borden) Bessey.
Since Laddy's wife killed his and her children and committed suicide, it's possible Dr. Hartley, Grace's father, wanted distance from them.
It's possible as part of his reason for disowning *Bordens.*
Also, he might have thought some were *crazy* because they were a bit in-bred, within his own wife's line.
(I will look for Avis- I recall her name.)

I was wondering about these genealogies *distancing* themselves from our Bordens. I have noticed a few times in books - not on-line genealogies but real books with authors c. 1900's- they seem to have left out our Bordens! I had to figure the relationship of the Gardners to the Bordens simply because one sister's husband was not named and he was William Bradford Morse, JVM's brother! The Bordens are named within their own line, but other's lines leave them out sometimes, is what I'm getting at.

[Kat]

The reason I called hello to Doug-Oh is because he and I had PM'd about that Hartley will. It's just darn odd.

I went ahead and looked for Avis and found her. She is more closely related to William S. Borden (aka Billie Borden) than she is to Andrew!
Here's her tree, somewhat...


Edit here- I continued the line to the finish- sort of.
Kinda makes your eyes go crossed, eh?

[doug65oh]

Checkered family history will do it every time! Any one of those reasons makes sense in at least some context tho really.