How was Andrew when it came to financial matters

[Fargo]

As the Legend of Lizzie has grown, the Characters of some of the people involved in the case have become Exaggerated.

Like Andrew with his Frugality. In legend, Andrew has become the Epitome of a Tightwad, but was he really ?

Many people have unfairly been called Cheap, because others do not understand the hard economic times that they grew up in. I have witnessed it in my own family. Maybe it was the same for Andrew.

What is your Opinion of Andrew, when it comes to Finances?

[1bigsteve]

I think Andrew was very knowledgeable in making money but I think, from what I've read over the years, that he is more on the greedy side. Not in the sense of wanting to take your money but just being too tight with his own. Some rich people are very greedy. In my view frugal is when you weigh the purchases of say two similar items in quality and price and decide which would be the better deal. Greedy is just not wanting to spend money on anything no mater what it was except for basic food and such.

I don't know for sure but he might have just been "super frugal." After all he did give some money to the girls.

-1bigsteve (o:

[Tina-Kate]

I chose "extremely frugal" because I don't think pure greed was his motivator, and yet he was more than "thrifty".

[Bobbypoz]

I also feel that AJB was extremely frugal. I honestly think that it was his way of survival; of making it through the world. If it was something that HE thought was needed he would spend the money otherwise his money would not be squandered in that direction. Great question!

~B

[kssunflower]

I'm not sure how I would describe him. Ruthless and scrupulous in business matters and frugal to some extent. It wasn't exactly a necessity to have a servant when there were three women in the home. And there was Lizzie's trip to Europe...

[Nadzieja]

I would say Andrew was extremely frugal to the point of eating food that was no longer good. He did send Lizzie to Europe, and he did give his wife that house (which started one heck of an argument). So he did do some good things with his money, however I'm sure he put up a ruckus if he thought something was not needed but bought anyways.

[Kat]

Who voted "Generous to a fault?"

[SallyG]

Not me!! I think he was extremely frugal. I see it a lot...my husband is the executive chef at an exclusive country club with some extremely rich members and some of them are the same way. When someone pulls up in a mercedes and then asks the waitperson how much the crab cake would cost WITHOUT the bun..all he can do is roll his eyes.

I think Andrew was much the same way...he had made his money, but he didn't like to spend it. I think he would spend money if necessary...to keep the peace in some instances...or perhaps to shut them up. If something was a good investment, I think he would spend if he knew he would make it back with profits.

I think it was just his character...he made his money...probably through hard work...and he didn't like to part with more than was necessary.

[UndertakerWinward]

Andrew J. Borden knew the true value of a dollar. He was extremely cautious with his money and lived a comfortable, modest life, in his modest greek revival home. Serving rotten mutton broth to your family on a miserable hot August day can certainly make you mighty unpopular. However, Mr. Borden most likely grew up in a family where there was barely enough food to feed the entire family. Wasting food was sinful and unheard of. This is just an assumption.

[Nadzieja]

I agree with you Undertaker Winward. My parent grew up in the depression, their idea of nutrition (before you really never heard the word) was that if you were full & not hungry, you were fine.

[twinsrwe]

I think Andrew was extremely careful with the management of his money. I see him as being tightfisted or reluctant to part with his hard earned money. I voted that he was extremely frugal, which implies there was an absence of luxury in the way he chose to live his life; he preferred simplicity in his lifestyle. I think he spent his hard earned money on the things that were needed, instead of the things that were wanted; like a house on 'the hill'. Granted he did spend his money on Lizzie's trip to Europe, but perhaps he felt this trip was a necessity for no other reason than obtaining some peace and quite and his own house. As for giving his wife a house, it is possible that he felt obligated to do so, after all she was his wife. No matter how we see Andrew. the lifestyle he chose to live, worked for him - he died a rich man!

[augusta]

I would have liked to have voted two ways: in business matters and personally extremely frugal, but when it came to his family, he wasn't quite the miser. Besides Lizzie's trip, she got a sealskin cape; they had running water when it became available; and yes, they had Bridget. That's really interesting when you point out there were three other women in the house.

SallyG - "Without the bun"? Really, tho, I didn't know crab cakes were served on a bun.

One woman I knew well who was loaded, her roots were growing up poor on a farm. She counted every penny. If someone gave her a gift and she didn't use it, she'd re-wrap it and give it to someone else. She should have never told me that. On every gift occassion I'd think 'Whose was this?" She was also very ruthless in business. She'd kick people out who missed their rent, then hurried over to the house and took all the stuff they left behind. She just loved it. The first store she owned - and she told me this - she had a partner. The partner went down to Florida. And the store really took off. She wrote her partner and told her they were almost bankrupt, gave her her half of the money back, and made a mint. I think she was tight plus evil.

My parents grew up in the Depression, and my father was a supermarket fanatic. He would go to three different stores a week to pick up the best sale items. And then he would stock up like we were squirreling away nuts for the winter. He always loved to offer food and say "Have as much as you want". I very much agree that that came from the really tough times he had growing up.

Andrew came from Quaker roots, and Quakers were very simple folk. A few years back a Quaker cemetery was vandalized, and the newspaper said that the Quakers buried there had nothing written on their gravestones; it was their belief not to, they were that modest/simple.

I would love to know why Andrew stopped going to church as a Quaker. There was a Quaker meetinghouse in FR. I don't know if it was there exactly during Andrew's time, but I have an old postcard of it. Or did he ever go to a Quaker meeting?

I read that Andrew enjoyed amassing money. To me that makes sense, since he didn't seem to do much with it except invest in more money-making things.

In his talks with John Morse about his will, Andrew said he wanted to give a hunk of land (I don't remember money, but that may have been included, too) to an Old Ladies' Home. Seems like there's another charity he mentioned too. But he did want to leave a part of his wealth to a needy cause or two.

He looked severe - in his beard and black outdated clothing, going about town. The morning of the murders, some man said good morning to him. Andrew's response was, "Good morning to you." Simple; direct. I think he gave an overall impression of being one not easily approached. The kind of guy that scares little kids.

He belonged to no fraternal organizations of the day, which was unusual then in FR. I don't think he had a bunch of drinking buddies he went out with Friday nights.

The way he treated Dr. Bowen (it's a shame we know so little about Andrew), was rude. He did not seem to care what others thought. And that was obvious, too, by the house he remained in and not caring being seen picking up a busted lock. (Tho his picking that up was discussed on here earlier, and it came up that he might have wanted that lock for a good reason, which was because it was the old lock from the door and they might need it if they couldn't re-order that same kind if needed, or something like that.) Selling eggs out of his house, tho, seemed really cheap. I would have been embarrassed even if my father was not wealthy, but especially so if he was.

But his treatment of Dr. Bowen was him using his business side of him. He didn't call for an official house call, and by God he wasn't going to pay for it.

Was he a hard man at times, with his act of killing the pigeons? I don't think it's necessarily so. People in those days butchered animals. Chickens, probably, in their own back yards. I worked in an office once where there was a pigeon problem. They were gathering in flocks, perching on the building, and let's just say you better have had a hard hat on if you had to go outside. This one boss of mine, a really great guy, went upstairs one day and was catching pigeons and wringing their necks. Some of their heads came off! I was appalled. I made sure I stayed well downstairs and didn't go out until I heard the birds had been picked up.

Andrew sharing that there was trouble at home shows something human in him. It bothered him if he brought it up, and he told Pierre LeDuc about it. He asked Emma where she could be contacted if something happened the last time he saw her. And when Lizzie came home from her Grand Tour, he was really happy to see her!

The food, tho, is mind-boggling. Did he like his food left over because of his teeth? And mutton - not lamb. Mutton is an old lamb. It was cheap. It wasn't the same as a young, tender lamb. Lamb and mutton are not the same word. Serving it to everyone else seems uncaring to their palates. With as simply as Andrew lived, I would think he would allow himself at least the pleasure of good food. Maybe he liked mutton.

Remember the FR businessmen tipping their hats to his funeral procession. He was a highly respected businessman. He was known for his fairness and honesty. No one said he gave anything away, but he made square deals with people. Probably to the penny.

We are working with some clews here, and not a wealth of them. I hope that as time goes by and we keep researching, we'll find more about the characters of him, Abby and our past Fall River friends.

[augusta]

Sorry. Double post.

[Tina-Kate]

"I think he gave an overall impression of being one not easily approached. The kind of guy that scares little kids."

That was a really good & entertaining post, Augusta!

[snokkums]

I think he was greedy. He didn't want to spend at all.

[Bobbypoz]

Great post August, really full of thought and insight. It really gives one much to think about.

[augusta]

Thanks, Tina-Kate and Bobbypoz.

I think Andrew and Abby both have not been given a fair shake by past writers' descriptions of them. "Andrew was a Scrooge." And "Abby was a fat, old mean thing." As if they weren't bashed enough.

I don't understand why they were always made out to be one-dimensional unlikeables. They were the victims, for God's sake.

Years ago, not knowing anything else about them, I thought, 'Wow! I couldn't live like that either!' I thought I could almost understand Lizzie if she did it. Not agree with the act of murdering, but understand how impossible poor Lizzie must have had it in that house.

It's been a real eye opener to find that Abby did have friends. She did go out. She was a good stepmother and close to Lizzie earlier, and Lizzie called her 'Mother' for years. The half-house Andrew gave her wasn't even for her - it was so her sister wouldn't be thrown out in the street. I'd certainly ask it of him if I were her. Those 'girls' were cruel to turn that good deed into something "unfair" and demanding something for themselves.

And Abby lived like that in that house, with that deep hatred coming from the step-daughters. Lizzie mouthed off about it in public, how awful Abby was - what a good-for-nothing. She enjoyed referrring to her as "Mrs. B" and making fun of her to others. Abby never talked about how she was treated by them. She sure could have, but she didn't.

Why do people always say Abby and Andrew had a loveless marriage, and he married her to be a step-mother and maid? Nobody knows that! I don't see how people can possibly say it, unless some people are older than we think and lived under their bed until August 5, 1892.

Take a look at Andrew's body in his autopsy photo. He was still in good health and he looked to be in good shape. There is not one fact to back up the belief that they were more or less married in name only. They were married for 27 years. That's a lifetime.

It's like after the murders, after the trial, after Lizzie died, those in Lizzie's corner decided to believe every mean thing she said about her father and Abby, and before one knew it it had a snowball effect - writers merely copying the writers before them - until it eventually rolled into such a big, solid ball that no one could see the original little snowball it started as.

It's amazing how two upstanding Fall River citizens that were victims of a horrible, unnecessary act have been further maligned by some horrid - or lazy - little writers for so many years. I think that's a crime in itself.

[kssunflower]

Well said, augusta. One shouldn't be too quick to make assumptions based on inaccurate details. I know I've been guilty of doing that.

[Nadzieja]

The more I've read the more I've felt bad for Abby. I think she had high hopes of really getting a relationship with Andrews daughters, especially Lizzie because she was so young. I think that Emma helped poison Lizzie against Abby. It's almost as if you can hear her say--"who do you believe, me-your real sister or her-your stepmother". At Lizzie's age I don't think she would be able to reason it out. When she was older it was so deeply inbedded into her not to like Abby, that she didn't and I don't think either one of them tried very hard.

[SallyG]

I think Lizzie was a "victim" as well...a victim of her sister, Emma. I have long believed that the real troublemaker in the family was Emma. I think she resented Abby from the first...perhaps that's why she was sent off to school for awhile. I think whatever bond Lizzie developed with Abby, Emma destroyed it over time.

Emma put on the sweet, quiet, ladylike demeanor; the long-suffering and supportive sister. I'm sure her family saw a totally different side of her.

I think she influenced Lizzie's behavior very negatively towards Andrew and Abby...especially Abby. I believe the reason she left Lizzie is because she realized that Lizzie had finally broken away from her control and was living life the way SHE wanted to...not the way EMMA wanted to.

[snokkums]

I agree with SallyG. I think that Emma was the troublemaker. After all, Lizzie never knew her mother, the only information she got about her mother was from either Emma or her father.

I have always belived that Emma had something to do with the murders. She was just smart enough to be out of the house at the time of the murders.