What do we call it?

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 3:59 pm

I was looking at some calendar online recently, and on the date of Lizzie's acquittal it was called "Lizzie Borden Liberation Day". (Of course, August 4 could have been called that, too ...)

That sounds like a good way to refer to that date.

What to call August 4th?

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:33 pm

How about "Boiling Point?" Actually I don't have a clue.

-1bigsteve (o:

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 10:05 pm

We've been trying to come up with a way to commemorate August 4th - like to send a greeting to one another, etc. "Happy Lizzie Borden Murder Day" is bad.

Maybe we should remember the victims: "Remember the Bordens - August 4, 1892".

Big Steve, you are beautiful!

Wordweaver · Post by **Wordweaver** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 4:43 am

augusta @ Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:59 am wrote:I was looking at some calendar online recently, and on the date of Lizzie's acquittal it was called "Lizzie Borden Liberation Day". (Of course, August 4 could have been called that, too ...)

That sounds like a good way to refer to that date.

What to call August 4th?

I usually call it Lizzie Borden Day. "Borden Murder Day" is probably the most accurate term.

To be silly:

You could call it Stepmother's Day, but that leaves out Andrew -- and assumes that Lizzie or Emma did it.

Be Nice or Else Day.

Maybe you could get a TV show to sponsor it. CSI Day, or Family Feud Day, or Unsolved Mysteries Day. Or even Home Chopping Network Day.

OK, I'll stop now.

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 9:27 am

Those are good ones, Wordweaver. "Home Chopping Club". Yew are funnee.

I was thinking more along the lines of what would an appropriate greeting be? Like at Xmas, we say "Merry Christmas". "Happy New Year" at New Years'. Lizzie may have greeted Emma with "Happy ___" every August 4th. Fun bunch tho we may be, that isn't appropriate. Oh well. Nothing is going to come crashing down on our heads if we can't come up with one.

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 9:31 am

augusta @ Tue Jul 15, 2008 6:05 pm wrote:We've been trying to come up with a way to commemorate August 4th - like to send a greeting to one another, etc. "Happy Lizzie Borden Murder Day" is bad.

Maybe we should remember the victims: "Remember the Bordens - August 4, 1892".

Big Steve, you are beautiful!

Thanks, Augusta. It's amazing what they can do with those operations now.

I got one. If I remember correctly the Japaneses have a phrase "chop, chop" which means hurry up.

"Chop, chop." I like that one.

-1bigsteve (o:

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 12:57 pm

I guess we can call you "Little Steve" now. Or ... "No Steve."

Are you Susan Heyward?

DJ · Post by DJ » Wed Jul 16, 2008 5:19 pm

The tacky to truly tasteless possibilities boggle the mind. (My latest: "Eight-Four, Hit the Floor," "Eight-Four-Ninety-Two, Adieu.")
How about "Bordenmoriam Day"?
(A contraction of "Borden" and "Memoriam.")
It bears a degree of respect. Whatever Andrew and Abby Borden were in life, they have certainly suffered in death, via those oft-published crime-scene photos.
Also, one can "remember" whomever among the Bordens one chooses.

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 6:23 pm

augusta @ Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:57 am wrote:I guess we can call you "Little Steve" now. Or ... "No Steve."

Are you Susan Heyward?

"Little Steve" or "No Steve." Good one, Augusta.

No, I'm not Susan. Susan has two "A's" in her last name, no "E's". At 270lbs. I'm still Steve. I got tired of looking at Boris Karloff's grumpy face. He looks too much like me.

I got another idea, how about "Fall River's Hatchet Day?" Or maybe "Fall River's Yearly Hatchet Parade?" Maybe we can get Shelley to organize an annual "August 4th Hatchet Parade." Bring the kids.

-1bigsteve (o:

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:15 pm

"Bordenmoriam" is good. Creative!

Big Steve, I don't think Fall River would appreciate "Hatchet Day". The parade could be a re-enactment of the funeral, I suppose? (Say ....)

I thought "Heyward" looked goofy. So you are not Susan Heyward. But, how do you know so much about her - like what she looks like and how to spell her name and, and, stuff.

Speaking of Susan Hayward (always one of my favorites), I just love that movie "I Want to Live". Lindsay Wagner did a tv-remake of it, and I thought she did a great job in that.

I had been looking for a book on the story of Barbara Graham - the woman who Susan H. plays in "IWTL". The newspaper guy, _____ Montgomery, wrote a lot about her in the papers, I gather from the movie. I thought maybe he did a book on it later. But I guess not. That woulda been good, tho.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 2:41 pm

You could go with something simple like A&A Day. I really couldn't come up with anything. Unfortunately this was my best attempt.

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 6:12 pm

No "Hatchet Day?" I have been scratching my brains trying to come up with something respectful and "snazzy" but I can't. The more I think about it the more I like "Borden Memoriam." It still isn't right but close. Wasn't there a book called, "The Fall River Tragedy?" How about that? That sounds good to me. Anyone second it?

Don't feel bad Augusta. I saw "Heyward" written on the VHS cover of one of her movies. The company was too cheap to hire a proof reader. Susan would roll over in her pink casket if she saw that. She got her last name from agent Leland Hayward when arriving in Hollywood. It was Edward S. Montgomery, played by Simon Oakland, who wrote about Barbara Graham. He originally thought she was guilty but later changed his mind. Susan read Barbara's letters and, if I remember right, she thought Barbara was guilty. I don't know if there is a book on Barbara's life. Should be though. It would be interesting reading. I sometimes play the original film without sound just to watch Susan. She was a very kind woman and much of the garbage written about her "toughness" was just garbage. She was very sweet.

I'll keep thinking about this Borden situation. Maybe something will pop into my pea brain.

-1bigsteve (o:

kssunflower · Post by **kssunflower** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 10:36 pm

Fall River's Fateful (or Fatal) Fourth?

Constantine · Post by **Constantine** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:24 pm

I can't think of anything for the name of the day.

I think I like "Edythe Marrenner" (her real name) better than "Susan Hayward." (I also like "Rosetta Jacobs" better than "Piper Laurie" and "Roy Fitzgerald" or "Roy Scherer" better than "Rock Hudson.")

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:53 pm

kssunflower @ Fri Jul 18, 2008 6:36 pm wrote:Fall River's Fateful (or Fatal) Fourth?

"The Fateful Fourth" sounds pretty good to me, Cindy. I'm still scratching my brain...

-1bigsteve (o:

nbcatlover · Post by **nbcatlover** » Sun Jul 20, 2008 6:48 pm

Rereading Muriel Arnold.

She says Knowlton referred to the murders as a "transaction." I suggest August 4 be called Transaction Day.

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 9:09 am

I think it should be called the Day after Angel's Birthday Day.

DJ · Post by DJ » Mon Jul 21, 2008 12:32 pm

I second "Fatal Fourth."
As for the star monikers: Esther Blodgett by any other name would shine as fine.

Bob Gutowski · Post by **Bob Gutowski** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 12:41 pm

I like "Fatal Fourth" a lot! I always write "Lizzie Borden Day" on the calendar, which makes it seem as though it might be her birthday (which WE ALL KNOW is July 19th).

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:31 pm

I also like "Fatal Fourth" Day!!! Bordenians everywhere would know exactly what day we are referring to.

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Mon Jul 21, 2008 4:55 pm

How about Liberation day? Since she didn't have to deal with her tight-wad father and a step-mother she hated anymore.

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Tue Jul 22, 2008 4:37 pm

"Fatal Fourth" is real good. All of them are good.

But what do we say on the "Fatal Fourth"? Or with any of them? "Happy Fatal Fourth?" No. We'd be earning our name of "nuts" that some journalists refer to us as. "Greetings on this Fatal Fourth" I guess. Or something like unto it.

Constantine - I think 'Rosetta Jacobs' is better than 'Piper Laurie', too! Who in the heck's name is Piper? That guy in the nursery rhyme with the flute and the rats is all I know, and that wasn't his first name.

Big Steve - There is no excuse for them mis-spelling Susan Hayward's name on a Video cover! She died of a brain tumor. Maybe if she behaved strangely because of it, people thought she was nasty? How do you know she was very sweet? Did you know her?

She was so beautiful. I remember reading that she died of a brain tumor when I was little, and I was real sad over it. Still am!

Wow - she thought Barbara Graham was guilty, you think? That was like her 'comeback' role, or she had a string of crappy films and this was her first good role in a long time. She was great in it!

That would be great, if someone published Barbara G's letters. Thanks for the full name of the reporter, too, Big Steve. Gee, I might get that movie out tonight and watch it.

Wordweaver · Post by **Wordweaver** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:51 am

augusta @ Tue Jul 22, 2008 12:37 pm wrote:"Fatal Fourth" is real good. All of them are good.

But what do we say on the "Fatal Fourth"? Or with any of them? "Happy Fatal Fourth?" No. We'd be earning our name of "nuts" that some journalists refer to us as. "Greetings on this Fatal Fourth" I guess. Or something like unto it.

Excellent point, Augusta. I like the Fatal Fourth myself -- it's a nice parallel with the Glorious Fourth the month before. "Never forget the Fatal Fourth."

But how do we celebrate what is essentially an unthinkable crime? There are precedents elsewhere. The British commemorate the foiling of the Gunpowder Plot on Guy Fawkes Night. The conspirators hid barrels of gunpowder under the Houses of Parliament in order to blow up the king and most of the Protestant nobles. If it had it come off, the explosion would have leveled the buildings and caused a great deal of damage to the City of London. Luckily, they were caught just hours before the explosion.

To celebrate the king's escape, towns have fireworks and bonfires in which they burn effigies of Guy. One town traditionally sets fire to tar-soaked barrels. They also eat special foods -- potatoes roasted in the ashes of the bonfire, plus black treacle "bonfire toffee," a special kind of ginger cake, etc.

Basically, they re-enact the crime and eat foods that remind them of the crime. So how do we extend that to the Fatal Fourth? I personally draw the line at mutton broth and murdering parents, but we could all wash windows on that day, eat pears and cookies and a banana, and possibly do something elaborate with locked doors.

But the biggest tradition would have to be splitting watermelons with a hatchet, after which everybody would eat a piece. Whoever could spit the seeds farthest would be Lizzie for the day.

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 11:18 pm

augusta @ Tue Jul 22, 2008 12:37 pm wrote:"Fatal Fourth" is real good. All of them are good.

But what do we say on the "Fatal Fourth"? Or with any of them? "Happy Fatal Fourth?" No. We'd be earning our name of "nuts" that some journalists refer to us as. "Greetings on this Fatal Fourth" I guess. Or something like unto it.

Constantine - I think 'Rosetta Jacobs' is better than 'Piper Laurie', too! Who in the heck's name is Piper? That guy in the nursery rhyme with the flute and the rats is all I know, and that wasn't his first name.

Big Steve - There is no excuse for them mis-spelling Susan Hayward's name on a Video cover! She died of a brain tumor. Maybe if she behaved strangely because of it, people thought she was nasty? How do you know she was very sweet? Did you know her? She was so beautiful. I remember reading that she died of a brain tumor when I was little, and I was real sad over it. Still am!

Wow - she thought Barbara Graham was guilty, you think? That was like her 'comeback' role, or she had a string of crappy films and this was her first good role in a long time. She was great in it!

That would be great, if someone published Barbara G's letters. Thanks for the full name of the reporter, too, Big Steve. Gee, I might get that movie out tonight and watch it.

I got a good idea. How about having some lapel pins made with "Fateful Fourth" written above a little hatchet with "Fall River Tragedy" written below? We could wear them on August fourth in remembrance of two innocent people who were brutally murdered. It would help draw attention to the Borden case. I think it's a cool idea. What sayeth youeth?
___

Augusta, I'm glad to hear you like Susan Hayward too. She was a beauty. "I Want to Live" was not a comeback film. She had been making films all along. Try watching it without the sound. You gain a different perspective. It was several tumors that Susan had, twenty two if I remember correctly. She had bouts with breast, uterine and I think skin cancer but it was the brain cancer that led to her death. She suffered from myopia and had a difficult time recognizing people until they were within a few feet. This in part led to the belief that she was "stuck up" or "cold," but she wasn't. She just couldn't see very well. She had to develop a tough skin in her early carer just to survive and that "tough" image followed her. As far as I know her cancer never affected her manners. There was a lot of garbage written about her but Susan was always very kind and thoughtful to me, a real sweet lady. I vividly remember the day she died. She never told me she had cancer so the news hit me like a freight train.

Since then I have believed that it is important that we all inform those who care about us when we are facing a life and death struggle or a terminal disease. Keeping it away from them now doesn't spare them anything. It only increases the pain later. It's like when someone you care about suddenly dies without warning. You feel like you were robbed. You had so much you would have liked to say to them and now it's too late. If Susan had told me she was dying at least I could have had something to deal with and had some sort of closure at her death, if there is such a thing. As it is I sometimes find myself looking through my mail box for a letter from her when I suddenly remember that she is gone, and it's been thirty three years now. I'm planning on making a trip back east, maybe next spring, to visit her grave site. I have a lot of things I want to say to her and hope I will finally be able to tell her goodbye. She had a birthday last month. She would be ninety one. Susan gave me some real good advice and she was a real friend. She gave me some recipes that blew my mind, especially the chocolate pie, but they are lost. I still miss that little chipmunk. I guess I always will. She was something. Rest in peace, Susan.

-1bigsteve (o:

Constantine · Post by **Constantine** » Wed Jul 23, 2008 11:26 pm

I didn't realize you knew her personally. (I probably didn't read close enough.) Please accept my sympathy.

I heard that she acted in a film near an atom-bomb-testing site along with John Wayne and Agnes Moorehead and, perhaps, some other actors and that everyone (or at least quite a few people) who worked on that film eventually died of cancer. Does this ring true?

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Thu Jul 24, 2008 9:27 am

1bigsteve @ Wed Jul 23, 2008 9:18 pm wrote:... I got a good idea. How about having some lapel pins made with "Fateful Fourth" written above a little hatchet with "Fall River Tragedy" written below? We could wear them on August fourth in remembrance of two innocent people who were brutally murdered. It would help draw attention to the Borden case. I think it's a cool idea. What sayeth youeth? ...

Excellent idea, Steve!!! I like it!!! Hopefully, Augusta will too.

_____________

Steve, I know you addressed the part of your post regarding Susan Hayward to Augusta, but I have to tell you, I had to get out the tissues after reading it because it touched that special place within my heart. I have also lost friends as well as family without any warning whatsoever and it is one of life's hardest things to go through, because there is no closure. I guess that is why I make it a point to not only show my loved ones that I love them, but more importantly to tell them they are loved. We just never know what tomorrow may bring.

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Thu Jul 24, 2008 4:58 pm

Constantine @ Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:26 pm wrote:I didn't realize you knew her personally. (I probably didn't read close enough.) Please accept my sympathy.

I heard that she acted in a film near an atom-bomb-testing site along with John Wayne and Agnes Moorehead and, perhaps, some other actors and that everyone (or at least quite a few people) who worked on that film eventually died of cancer. Does this ring true?

Thanks, Constantine. That film was called, "The Conqueror." Many of the cast and crew members died from cancer. Agnes Moorehead was talking about this very thing shortly before she died of cancer. The area where it was filmed was radioactive from previous nuclear testing. I have heard that some of that sand was shipped to Hollywood for retakes. I don't know how true that is but it makes me wonder where all that glowing dirt is now.

I had an art book years ago and the author, who did a portrait of Agnes Moorehead, said she was a very charming lady, and not at all like the crusty character she played on Bewitched. Until then I never though much of Moorehead. Agnes Moorehead thought a lot of Susan and Debbie Reynolds. Since learning this my estimation of Moorehead has gone up several notches. I now think she is OK.

-1bigsteve (o:

DJ · Post by DJ » Thu Jul 24, 2008 5:09 pm

According to Debbie Reynolds, in her autobio, Agnes Moorehead was fond of Elizabeth Montgomery as well, and that the "Bewitched" costars were close friends.
There's an excellent interview with AM in the book "Hollywood Lesbians." I'm not overly fond of the author's aggressive "I'm gonna out you" tactics. Otherwise, the book is fascinating. My favorite quote is delivered by AM: "Fear of life causes us to lose out on far more than fear of death ever does."
The author, Boze Hadleigh, also produced a tome called "Hollywood Gays," which is worth the price of admission for the interview with Paul Lynde. I also enjoyed Peter Marshall's memories of Lynde in Marshall's autobio.

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Sat Jul 26, 2008 12:16 am

twinsrwe @ Thu Jul 24, 2008 5:27 am wrote:
1bigsteve @ Wed Jul 23, 2008 9:18 pm wrote:... I got a good idea. How about having some lapel pins made with "Fateful Fourth" written above a little hatchet with "Fall River Tragedy" written below? We could wear them on August fourth in remembrance of two innocent people who were brutally murdered. It would help draw attention to the Borden case. I think it's a cool idea. What sayeth youeth? ...
Excellent idea, Steve!!! I like it!!! Hopefully, Augusta will too.
_____________

Steve, I know you addressed the part of your post regarding Susan Hayward to Augusta, but I have to tell you, I had to get out the tissues after reading it because it touched that special place within my heart. I have also lost friends as well as family without any warning whatsoever and it is one of life's hardest things to go through, because there is no closure. I guess that is why I make it a point to not only show my loved ones that I love them, but more importantly to tell them they are loved. We just never know what tomorrow may bring.

When I was a kid I was into jewelry making. If I could remember how it's done I could make a pin. That would be cool wearing one of those. Imagine the puzzled stares and questions. I could put a "plug" in for Stefani's site.

____

I know exactly what you mean Judy. It seems we all get so caught up in our lives and problems that we so often fail to take a moment to tell those around us how much we love them. I think it is very important that we allow those who care about us to help us when we are facing a life and death struggle because it helps them deal with the grief and pain they feel. Can you imagine a parent sitting back watching their child die without doing something to help? Or a husband or wife watching their spouse suffer without stepping in and taking action to help in some way?

When my mom started developing health problems I could see her death coming a long way off and I had the chance to come to terms with it before she died. A few hours before her death I told her I loved her for the last time. She was in a coma but I like to believe she heard me. With her death I have had some sense of closure because I saw it coming. With Susan's death it was a lot different. She never told me she was sick so I never saw that train coming. She may have thought she was sparing me some grief but she has only caused a lot more in the long run. If she had told me she was dying at least I would have had something to deal with, something to come to terms with. I still had a lot of conversations left I wanted to have with her, a lot of things I wanted to talk with her about, a lot of things left to say, but all that was suddenly cut off. Part of me has accepted the fact that she is dead but it seems that some part of my psyche hasn't received that message yet. As a result I occasionally find myself wanting to sit and write her or looking through my mail for a letter that I suddenly remember will never come. I heard about a wife who lost her husband and for years she would hear his voice in the house and turn to answer only to realize that he isn't there. Thats the best way I can describe what it's like. I think by visiting Susan's grave I will finally be able to have those conversations and say the things I wanted to say, to thank her for being such a caring friend and a wonderful person. She may not be listening any more but I want to be able to say to her, after all these years, I love you Susan.

I'm sure there are a lot of people wandering around in cemeteries looking for some sort of closure in their lives, regrets that they have in not telling their friends, husbands, wives, parents, brothers and sisters that they love them while they had the chance. Now it's too late. There's nothing like experience to teach us a lesson the hard way that we shouldn't have had to learn in the first place.

-1bigsteve (o:

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Sat Jul 26, 2008 1:51 pm

1bigsteve @ Fri Jul 25, 2008 10:16 pm wrote:When I was a kid I was into jewelry making. If I could remember how it's done I could make a pin. That would be cool wearing one of those. Imagine the puzzled stares and questions. I could put a "plug" in for Stefani's site. ...

Yes, that would be cool, then we could all put a plug in for Stefani's site!!!

1bigsteve @ Fri Jul 25, 2008 10:16 pm wrote:... Can you imagine a parent sitting back watching their child die without doing something to help? Or a husband or wife watching their spouse suffer without stepping in and taking action to help in some way? ...

No, I can't. Perhaps this is why Susan Atkins' husband is fighting so hard for his wife's freedom, although I think he is going about it in the wrong way.

1bigsteve @ Fri Jul 25, 2008 10:16 pm wrote:... I think by visiting Susan's grave I will finally be able to have those conversations and say the things I wanted to say, to thank her for being such a caring friend and a wonderful person. She may not be listening any more but I want to be able to say to her, after all these years, I love you Susan. ...

I'd like to think she can hear you. I hope you can find some kind of closure to your friend's live. If after you visit her grave and there still is no closure for you, then hang on to the good times you and she shared. If you loved her, then most likely she loved you back - that is what being friends is all about. My heart goes out to you, Steve, for I know the kind of pain you are feeling.

1bigsteve @ Fri Jul 25, 2008 10:16 pm wrote:... There's nothing like experience to teach us a lesson the hard way that we shouldn't have had to learn in the first place. ...

You've got that right!!!

DJ · Post by DJ » Sat Jul 26, 2008 2:21 pm

I get a good sense of what you're feeling, Steve. I had a dear college friend-- one of the kindest people I've ever known. We had stayed in close touch in the years following graduation. The last I heard from him, via a lengthy Christmas missive, was that he'd just purchased a house in Atlanta and was working for the CDC, so I figured all was right in his world.
As it happened, he had "full blown" AIDS. I knew nothing of this until his Mother wrote me a letter saying that he had died, and that she was cleaning out his house, would I like to come over and have anything?
I was shocked. Why hadn't anyone told me? Why couldn't I have gone for a visit? Been, perhaps, a comfort? Then, I started to think how his Mother must feel-- she was a fairly young widow who was very close to this son. So, I did my best to be of comfort to her, in telephone conversations and letters. We still communicate.
About two years later, I had a vivid dream. I was walking through a meadow, down a country lane, near a beautiful village, with this friend. We were having a wonderful conversation, strolling along. Then, we neared a gate in a sort-of picket fence. He started through it, then turned, and said, "I'm sorry you can't come with me. You must stay on the other side of this gate, for now."
Finally, I was able to let go of any lingering feelings of not having been able to say goodbye.
*************************************************************
I have a brother who's an MD. He says he's noticed that people who are near the end often admit they're just tired out-- they can't fight staying alive any longer. They're ready to let it all go.
I had a dear older friend who died from cancer, about three years ago. Her adult grandson was in the room with her when she died. Her last words were, "I'm just so tired."
*************************************************************
I know Susan Hayward had suffered various types of, various bouts with cancer. I distinctly remember reading a fan-mag article titled, "God, It's Good to be Alive," about one of her comebacks from illness.
Maybe, at the very last, she just wanted to go it alone, peacefully and quietly, without hooplah. Maybe, she was just too tired to trouble her friends. Didn't want to worry them.
You know, you can always talk to her. I still talk to my dear friend, mentioned above. Usually, it's, "I wish you were here to offer your sage advice."
I believe, if you'll ask her, she'll send you a sign. Probably when you least expect it, as I wasn't expecting that dream, which came two years after my friend's death.
She obviously had a difficult time departing this life. Wish her peace.
*************************************************************
My Father died from cancer nine years ago. There was an inoperable tumor that had encircled his liver, and he was too weak to undergo chemo or radiation. Actually, by the time it was diagnosed, I think it had metastasized all over his body. He lived one month. In some respects, he was bitter. He and my Mother were preparing to move into her old family home. She told me that they had driven to the house one day, and he wouldn't get out of the car, saying, "I'll never live here."
All I felt able to do was to be a comforting presence to him, and to my Mother, to give him reassurance that I would look after my Mother, as well as his Mother.
As I told my Mother, "I don't know exactly what to do. But, for heaven's sake, let's not break down in front of him."
Maybe, some people who are dying are afraid that their friends and relatives will break down in front of them, that that's something they cannot bear to see, especially at the last.

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 1:22 am

Thank you Judy and David.

I've seen people will themselves to death in nursing homes. They can get tired of fighting old age or health problems and just "let go." One of my relatives, who was in his eighties, got up one morning and sat down in his favorite easy chair in the living room as he had done thousands of times before. He looked up at his wife and said, "I've always loved you baby" and then closed his eyes. It was all over just that quick. He had told me a few months earlier that he didn't want to die. He must have known his end was fast approaching.

I think a lot of people close up toward the end and just want to die quietly, much like an animal going off to a private place to die. I can understand that. Susan had her two sons with her when she died and I'm very grateful they were. It's strange that we often fail to tell the people we love that we love them until it's too late. George Burns said in his book that he often visited his wife's grave. He would sit and talk with her and tell her what all was happening in his life since she left. I know exactly where he is coming from.

We all lose friends and family over time. We are fortunate when we are aware of their impending death and can help in some way. When it happens behind our back it can really hurt.
____

I'm thinking of buying one of those small drilling tools and carve a "fateful fourth" pin out of hardwood. Maybe I'll have it ready by next August 04th. It will be kind of cool to see what it will look like. Wood now, gold later? Hmmm...

-1bigsteve (o:

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Mon Jul 28, 2008 1:52 pm

You're welcome, Steve.

1bigsteve @ Sun Jul 27, 2008 11:22 pm wrote:... I've seen people will themselves to death in nursing homes. They can get tired of fighting old age or health problems and just "let go." ...

I have also seem people will themselves to death in nursing homes, and I've seem people will themselves to live until a family member or someone they want to see before their death occurs, shows up.

Many years ago I worked as a nursing assistance in a nursing home. There was a resident there who chose me as her favorite nursing assistance, because I was the only one who could lift her out of her bed and cut her fingernails without causing her pain. I must admit she was my favorite resident, although we were not suppose to have favorites; that's easier said than done. She and I had a very special relationship.

This lady had rheumatoid arthritis which is a chronic, progressive, and disabling disease. It causes swelling along with damaged cartilage and bone around the joints. It is an incredibly painful condition, which caused her joints to deform and become unstable; her fingers were bent sideways. When she found out I was pregnant with my son, she kitted him a pair of booties and a cap to match. I've never taken them out of the box, she gave them to me in, because these items shows me the love this woman had for me - the pain and trouble she had to have gone through to kit them must have been incredible - I will always treasure these items.

This lady knew her time on earth was up; she knew she was going to die. The morning she pasted on, I was in report when the nurse from the previous shift told us that this resident was probably not going to make it through the day - her family members were called in during the night, and she had requested to see me. I went to her; as soon as she saw me, her face lit up like a Christmas tree, as it always did when I entered her room. She then asked her family to leave the room. Once they had all left, she asked me if I would be the one to clean her up after she pasted on. I placed my hands over hers, and told her that I would. I can't tell you how honored, I felt - what a compliment this was to me, not only for my work in caring for the elderly, but also the compassion that I displayed for other human beings. This compliment came from someone who loved me as much as I loved her; a loved that did not need the words 'I love you' said, for us know that it did, indeed, exist. She then asked that I have her family come back into the room. She pasted away within a ½ hour after she asked her very special request of me.

1bigsteve · Post by **1bigsteve** » Tue Jul 29, 2008 5:39 pm

It's good that the lady had you as a friend, Judy. Someone to make her passing as comfortable as possible, someone who really cared. Most of those people die all alone with no one around who really cares. When I had my mom in a nursing home my dad and I came to visit her twice a day to visit and feed her. The staff thought we came by because we didn't trust their care but when I told them we came by twice daily because we loved mom they told us that that was very rare. Most patients die without any visitors at all or just once in a while. I couldn't imagine abandoning mom and can't see why others do it to their family members. I don't get it.

Love is not something we can live or die without.

-1bigsteve (o:

Tina-Kate · Post by **Tina-Kate** » Wed Jul 30, 2008 8:49 am

O my goodness, that was very touching.

Thank you for sharing that with us.

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 8:19 am

YES! Big Steve, why don't you make a demo pin or button?!

I have this in my head: On the top line, maybe curved around the top if it's round - "August 4, 1892". Then, center stage, "The Fatal Fourth". Then on the bottom line, also maybe curved if it's round - "The Borden Murders", or "(The) Lizzie Borden Murders". I'd much rather see "The Borden Murders" and leave Lizzie out of it for a change, especially if she did do it. But I'm afraid that no one would recognize it without "Lizzie" in there.

I think it's "Fatal", not "Fateful", BigSteve. THANK YOU for offering to give it a try! That is really good of you.

What about graphics? We could go with the old tried-and-true axe. We could have "The Lizzie Borden Murders" in red that looks like it's dripping blood.

What say you, fellow posters?

I think it's about time some of the focus started to really be on the victims. No one has ever treated them fairly. "Andrew is a Scrooge." "Abby was fat and mean." Always one-sided, negative descriptions of the victims, for God's sake.

Angel · Post by **Angel** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 8:35 am

No dripping blood. Too teenage and comic book like.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:07 am

1bigsteve @ Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:39 pm wrote:It's good that the lady had you as a friend, Judy. Someone to make her passing as comfortable as possible, someone who really cared. Most of those people die all alone with no one around who really cares. When I had my mom in a nursing home my dad and I came to visit her twice a day to visit and feed her. The staff thought we came by because we didn't trust their care but when I told them we came by twice daily because we loved mom they told us that that was very rare. Most patients die without any visitors at all or just once in a while. I couldn't imagine abandoning mom and can't see why others do it to their family members. I don't get it.

Love is not something we can live or die without.

-1bigsteve (o:

Thanks, Steve.

I believe it is because of my grandmother (my mother's mother), that I feel such compassion for the elderly and the handicapped, as well as the terminally ill. My grandmother was the most influential person in my childhood. I adored her, and have always wanted to be just like her. When I was a nursing attendant, I treated the elderly, and took care of them, as I would want my Grandmother treated and taken care of'. People who can't take care of themselves need someone who will do the right thing by them.

Unfortunately, it is true, and so very sad, that many of the people in nursing homes do die all alone. I have never understood people who leave their, supposedly, loved ones, to die alone. It was heart-warming to hear about how you and your father were there for your mother.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:10 am

Tina-Kate @ Wed Jul 30, 2008 6:49 am wrote:O my goodness, that was very touching.

Thank you for sharing that with us.

I'm not sure if you are addressing me or Steve.

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 12:56 pm

Wow - this is a powerful thread. Twinsrwe, I don't think I'll ever forget about your friend in the nursing home who knitted you something, with her arthritis! DJ and Wordweaver, thanks for sharing. ('Guy Fawkes Night' was neat. I should wash my own windows on The Fateful Fourth...

)

BigSteve, you have a big heart. Your sharing all you did - and everyone who did - may not have been easy. Then again, maybe it helped you guys. It was all true. Everything everyone said I've experienced, and it's so very, very true.

I lost my dad 20+ years ago of lung cancer (smoking). He died slowly, by the inch, and it was excruciating to watch. He was such a strong man! But everyone got a chance to tell him what they needed to, and to this day it is a comfort.

When me, my mom and my sister were standing by his casket, me and my mom could smell this real rich flowery smell that nobody else could. I thought it was strange, but figured it had to be the flowers there.

My husband had to go somewhere for several days, and I was standing at the kitchen sink washing my mom's dishes. The window above the sink was open, tho there wasn't a breeze. I had the thought: "Gee, this will be the first night I'll be sleeping alone since Dad died." And this lovely breeze came in the window, smelled like that strange flowery smell, and all I can say is that it felt like it went right thru me. Right away I thought it was my Dad, but I went over to kitchen counter to make sure it wasn't the same smell as an arrangement of flowers there. No. To this day I do believe it was him telling me he was okay. During his last couple weeks, when even he knew he was going, I asked him to do me one favor. He said sure. I said please don't ever come to me in a physical form after you go - I'll have a heart attack. And he said sure. I never experienced something like that breeze again, tho I've heard lots of people tell of it happening to them.

My sister died in 2002, very slowly from diabetes. She was too weak to reach the nurse's button, and she asked for things out of the blue every now and then. A nurse would have never heard her. So I stayed by her bedside each day, and her husband stayed with her each night, sleeping on a cot. We were not going to let her lay there alone, and possibly neglected.

Every day was a story unto itself. But there's 3 things I'd like to share. She was sleeping - maybe she was semi-comatose - when she wasn't screaming from pain. She had her leg gradually amputated up to the thigh, then when blood would not circulate to it anymore, they couldn't take any more of the leg off. (She had gangrene, which they would cut off that part of her leg, then in a day or so more would just appear further up.) Anyway, this one evening she was laying there, and these volunteers brought their dogs in to visit with the patients. How they knew my sister loved Collies, I don't know. (Maybe her husband told them.) But I walked in the room, and there was this toy collie dog laying beside her so nicely, and she was petting it! She still had her eyes closed, but she knew the dog was there. She always knew who was there, even tho she very rarely seemed awake. I saw the dog volunteers by the elevator and thanked them for the good they had done my sister.

The second thing I want to share is about the comment one of you posted that the one dying does not want to upset others. One evening one of her doctors came in, lifted up her eyelids, and said, "She doesn't have long. A couple of days." I hadn't cried all that time, except on the way home or at home. But when the doctor left the room and that sentence was spoken, I burst out in sudden heaving sobs. I sat on her bed and I told her goodbye, that I'd love her and miss her, and to say hello to Dad for me. You know what she did? She shook her head "no", then slowly raised her hand up to her eye to indicate tears. She was telling me not to cry! She's dying, and she's not wanting me to cry.

The third thing is after she died. Me and my husband and kids were all in the kitchen here, and we were all real upset over her passing. Suddenly our old mantle clock on the fireplace started working. It never had. We inherited it from my husband's father. We had it over 20 years. And it chimed! Bong! Bong! Bong! I don't know how many times. And it kept it up for a few minutes. Then stopped. The next time we got real upset over her passing the clock went off again. That weekend (She died on a Friday) that clock worked and bonged with no one in that room, and none of us walking in the other room to possibly jar it into movement. (My husband, the engineer!, said maybe it was that - and we were all standing still the whole time before and during. We just looked at him ... He even had to admit that it must have been Nan.)

Like that breeze from my father, I have no doubt that it was Nan telling us she was okay. Nan was highly educated and just generally very intelligent. She picked something that she knew we would know it was her. Of course the clock never worked again after that weekend. Three days it worked, off and on - especially when we were really sad about her, then nothing ever since. I wonder if it has something to do with Jesus rising from the dead after three days. Like maybe some people get three days before they go to heaven, and are allowed to
stay around if they feel there's a need. I never 'heard from' Nan again after that clock. I didn't need to!

A sudden death is just terrible. My brother died in 2006. I got a phone call at night from a detective. It turned out he was real sick, but he did not want anyone to know because he had agoraphobia (fear of going places) and he knew if we knew how sick he was, we would make him go in the hospital. He had diabetes, which we never knew, and he had three holes in his legs and ankle. The detective said there was a hole the size of a tennis ball, all black (gangrene) thru his ankle.

I was so shocked when he died. I still am, tho my screaming stopped that night. They had to do an autopsy on him, because he had no doctor. It was/is so hard to know that. And the mortician talked about him like he was garbage because he was a 'charity case'. "He won't be shown on a weekend." "Oh, uh, okay." "Those are for paying customers." ... "And then they'll take him out in a van to the cemetery." "Gee, can't he even have a hearse? What if the family pays for it?" "Nope! The family can't pay more than $XXXX, or else the state won't kick in its part." "Does he really have to have an autopsy?" "Yup! As a matter of fact," he said, looking at his diamond-encrusted watched, "He's gonna be on the table at 2:00." It was then 1:45. Let me run into that guy again some day...

YES - telling people you love them and whatever you need to, for God's sake, it needs to be done before they die. My brother and I were all
right with each other when he passed. The last time I had talked to him was on Xmas Day (he died in February). We argued some about my mom's state of being. I thought she should be in assisted living; he didn't. We disagreed. But at the end of that last phone call, he told me he loved me, and I did, too. I am thankful that that was said, by both of us.

DJ · Post by DJ » Thu Jul 31, 2008 2:42 pm

I'm so sorry to hear of those excruciating family deaths, Augusta. As grim as the cancer was, the two from diabetes sound HORRIFYING.
I'm gladdened you received those signs-- beautiful, and profound.
I had a dear Uncle who died on Christmas Eve, a year and a half ago.
On Christmas Day, I was sitting at the kitchen table at my Mother's, looked out the window, and there were NINE, bright-red male cardinals perched in the bare branches of a dogwood tree. It was a striking sight! The birds seemed so solemn, too, for lack of a better word.
This Uncle had lived in St. Louis for years-- he and his wife were big fans of the-- you guessed it! In fact, on one visit, he had taken me to a double-header at the old Busch stadium.
*************************************************************
Speaking of signs, I was re-reading Lizzie's inquest testimony this week-- boy, did Mr. Knowlton OBVIOUSLY suspect her, and boy, did he evermore try to trip her up-- and I ran across this question: "You understood I was asking you exactly and explicitly about this fatal day."
So, I reiterate my nomination for "Fatal Fourth"!!!

SteveS. · Post by **SteveS.** » Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:59 pm

My heart goes out to all of you on the losses of loved ones, Speaking of signs after death...I lost my Mom to cancer back in Dec. 1989. She had been sick for a year and slowly deteriated and I am thankful that I was able to be there every day for her and to take care of her and make sure she was as comfortable as possible. She was only 57. So when she died I was so hurting and so angry with God for taking her from us. On the way to the florist to make arrangements for the funeral flowers I angrily and very stupidly demanded of God that he show me a sign that she was ok and not in pain any more and was with him in heaven or else I would refuse to believe he exists and curse him for the rest of my life. (sorry, I was grieving so much at that time it was such a stupid thing to think). At the florists one of the arrangements I picked out was a beautiful heart made of pink carnations and roses that matched the casket that we picked out for her. Other members of my family had picked out arrangements that some were also made of the exact same flowers. Well Dec. of 1989 was an extremely cold Dec. in New England, the days were only in the single digits. All the flower arrangements had been placed atop the new grave as is custom and the very next day after the funeral because of the extreme cold all the flower arrangements turned brown from the cold except one. You guessed it...my floral heart was still pink and fresh as it was when it was made. My Dad lived just up the road from the cemetary and would visit every day and after about 5 days he cleared off the dead brown flowers from the grave and called me and said "it's weird but the heart you got for your Mom is still pink, do you want me to just leave it on the grave?" I replied yes, leave it as long as it stays fresh and pink. It stayed that way for 2 weeks to the day after she died. It was so strange to have just that pink heart on the grave. I believe this was my sign from God that he knew I loved her and that she was ok and with him in heaven. Sorry for such a long post but I just wanted to share this with all of you.

Nadzieja · Post by **Nadzieja** » Fri Aug 01, 2008 4:42 am

I want to say thank you all very much for sharing your most heartfelt stories. They really do help the rest of us who have also gone through the hearbreak of losing someone. They always say being the youngest you are spoiled. I'm the youngest and I wasn't the spoiled one, however being the youngest it seems you're always the one who is around to say goodbye to everyone. I didn't realize that until I was looking at my wedding photos from 35 years ago and realized that my husband & I were the only ones still living. When you lose someone when your're young it changes your whole perspective of what's really important in your life--it sure is not money!! I lost my dad at 15 and it was like being in one of those crystal snow globes that when everything finally settles down, nothing is the same. I've felt that with every funeral I've been to, and it seems there have been way too many it only confirms my belief that enjoy this day because you might not have another.

twinsrwe · Post by **twinsrwe** » Fri Aug 01, 2008 9:59 am

I appreciate all of the wonderful comments my fellow forum members have given here. I am so thankful this wonderful woman was a part of my life. She is someone I remember as a delight to be with, and care for; she was so appreciative of the littlest things I did for her. Remembering her brings me the warmest heartfelt joy, and although I tear up every time I see the booties and cap she kitted for my child, or tell other people about her - my tears are definitely tears of joy. She would not have wanted anyone shedding tears of sadness for her.

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Sat Aug 02, 2008 3:09 pm

SteveS: I just noticed you're from Fall River. Do you live there today?
I don't think you need to apologize for a "long" post. Geez, look at mine!

There are like 7 steps to grieving, and anger at God is one of them.

My eyes widened at your fresh-pink-heart sign. Things have happened at my dad's grave along those lines. Every year, we are allowed to put one grave wreath on his grave. Me and Nan made this huge heart wreath the first year. "God," she said. "It looks like a Mafia chieftain's." It did.

After that we got busy with other things and took turns purchasing a wreath for him. I would always tie on a special ornament on it, just from me. The first one I did was a small, plastic candy cane. I thought I would so love to see a sign from him. When I went back in the spring and the wreath was gone, his grave was muddy from the rains. But there was my candy cane. I was stunned, and I knew ... but I have to rule out everything, and a small part of me thought maybe I just didn't tie it on tight enough. But I didn't really believe that.

It kept happening the next several years. Another plastic candy cane the next year. A little flag. Every year I put my ornament I found on his grave in my kitchen drawer. I knew what it was, and I told my sister. I got to where I expected to see my ornament on his grave. And that's when they stopped. It was like, "Okay, you know. Just wanted you to be sure." Like it wasn't needed to show me anymore. But it was the dangdest thing.

*****
Angel, no dripping blood, huh? Yeah, I guess that's not sending such a good message. I'm thinking of how to brighten the pin - make it noticeable and not just writing. Is there a Victorian sign of mourning that would be understood by everyone? What other ideas do we have?

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Sat Aug 02, 2008 3:33 pm

DJ, I'm sorry. I meant to respond to your post. Thank you for your kindness. I was very interested to read your post about the cardinals. They have always played a part in my mother's beliefs about my dad. This one cardinal used to come and like visit her regularly from outside the window. It didn't act ordinary. Anyway, she believed it was some contact from my dad. My mother has always been somewhat psychic.

When my brother died, a fellow employee of his bought him a lovely basket with, I dunno, "stuff" in it (I can't remember). And it had cardinals wired on here and there. She told me the story of my brother and this bird that one day, when he was walking home from work, this bird (not a cardinal) acted very bizarre. It followed him. I think she said at one point it got on his shoulder. He loved animals, and he didn't try to shoo it away. My brother and this employee were very good friends. He really cared about her (platonically). She had health problems, and he felt so badly for her. Anyway, she said when he died she was so upset. But it went away when she went to get in her car, and on her car seat there was a bird feather. She said, "I just said, 'Okay, George. I get it.'." I thought that was a lovely story.

I kept one of the cardinals from her basket and put it away. Months passed. Probably a year. I never got a sign from him, but I told everyone that I knew that he was in heaven; I had no doubt. He probably didn't think I needed one. But the missing him went on and on - it still breaks my heart.

Then one day, my son and I went somewhere and when we got back in the car, there was this little white plastic dove on my car seat. I had bought those before in dime stores for decorating church bulletin boards, but I'd never seen one in my car before, let alone on my seat. I thought my son must have gotten one from Boy Scouts or something. Nope. My husband very seldom used my car, but I asked him and he thought I was nutz to ask. (Things like this worry Engineers. There's no answer for it!)
Well, to this day I don't know if this was a comfort sign from my brother. I mean, one from church could have suddenly maybe stuck on my clothing somehow maybe as I reached into the back seat or something, even tho I had not had one of those in my car for several years. And for it to be like "placed" on my seat like that ... I don't know. But I keep it on a little shelf of my dashboard, and I look at it, and I wonder ...

kssunflower · Post by **kssunflower** » Sat Aug 02, 2008 3:52 pm

I know mourning pins and broaches were popular during that era and were black and usually included some hair from the deceased or were in a floral design. We had a pin displayed in the parlour of the historic site I volunteered at. So I don't know, maybe a black flower design of some sort on the pin?

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