Lizzie and Bridget

[SteveB]

Hello Everyone,

I recently discovered this site and became a member. Although I have been interested in the case for years, I haven't read (or thought) of it in quite sometime. I just moved and reacquired books which were in storage, including my Lizzie Borden collection. Anyway, that's enough about me.

I always felt that Lizzie did it, with Bridget as an accomplice. It just didn't seem to make sense to me that Lizzie could have carried out both killings without Bridget's knowledge. Maybe Lizzie paid her off, I don't know. I read somewhere that they never accused the other of the crimes and stated that the other person wasn't in the rooms at the time of the crimes. These points always stuck with me. Perhaps when I reread my books I will have a difference of opinion.

If you agree with me (or not) I would love to hear from you.

Thanks!


Steve

[snokkums]

I have felt somewhere along the line that Bridget was involved. I think, though, it was probably more after the fact, to protect Lizzie.

I believe that Emma was more involved than she let on. She just happened to be smart enough to get out of dodge.

[DJ]

Hey, Steve--
Bridget's a cipher in many respects, and it certainly seems wild that the murders were committed almost "under her nose," and that she was oblivious.
Still, I weigh in on the side that she wasn't directly involved, that she had no knowledge aforehand.
However, I think she really could have blown the lid off the trial proceedings. That is, that she must have seen and heard a lot more regarding the friction in the family than she ever let on, under oath. Had she been properly and patiently and reassuringly questioned, I believe she could have painted a most damaging portrait of Lizzie's familial relationships-- one that could have well given the jury serious pause.
I believe she was coached and/or intimidated prior to the trial. Sure, some money could have been forthcoming. Basically, though, I think she wanted out of the whole sorry mess, and probably lived in fear that she might be accused, sooner than later.
*************************************************************
I think Emma was involved beforehand. John Morse, too. Not that they were on the premises at the times of the murders, but that they knew what Lizzie was planning to do, and planned to protect her as much as possible.
*************************************************************
But, who knows????!!!!
Could be that Bridget came in from window-washing, buckets of soapy water in hand, and helped Lizzie wash off!
If Bridget were involved, one thing's for certain: She was a much better liar-- and actress-- than Lizzie.

[Kat]

Hi SteveB!

I find Bridget to be remote- I can't identify with her. It's hard enough to try to put myself into Lizzie's head- tho we are a week apart in birthdates, she was of 2 centuries ago. I mean 19th compared to 21st! I don't see how we can ever really know what life was like back then.

Other than that, Bridget seemed to talk *Bridget-Speak*- that's what we used to call it. And she pretty much said she didn't see Lizzie anywhere that day, except for in the kitchen eating a cookie, next at the screen door asking if she was going to wash the windows and after that in the dining room with Andrew after he got home. Lizzie said she had not eaten, she didn't seem to have spoken to Bridget when Bridget went out to wash windows (other than to inform her before that to shut the parlour blinds) and Lizzie also said she did not talk to Andrew in the dining room.
They did not *see* each other, rather than saying the other was not in the room, if that makes sense.
Lizzie said she did not know that Bridget washed the windows, only what Bridget told her. I always thought that was odd- each denying seeing the other- Like Morse and Lizzie denying seeing the other. It's weird.

[DJ]

One thing that's stuck in the back of my mind, is: How could Lizzie be certain that she had the "all clear" (all clean) to present herself to the prying eyes of others, if in fact she committed Andrew's murder?
That is, how could she be certain that she didn't, say, have some blood on the back of her head, or the back of her collar, or on the heel of her shoe?
IOW: It would have been MOST helpful to have had someone check her out, first. Almost NECESSARY. Even with a mirror in one hand and another on the wall, it would have been a most risky business. Her life-or-death business.
That is, unless she stripped and poured water over her head and torso. But, there would have been little time to do that, or for her hair to dry.
Also, why would she have put back on the dress that she later burned?
In my guesstimation, if LIzzie killed Andrew, she covered herself with his coat, or some such, along with some covering for her hair.
************************************************************
Anyway, my intent is not to inaugurate a discussion of that scenario, but merely to observe that:
If Lizzie killed Andrew, she took an awful risk presenting herself to inquisitive eyes without someone giving her a thorough once-over.
Otherwise, she could have immediately incriminated herself if there were blood, say, on her elbow, or any other hard-to-see-for-yourself place.
************************************************************
That is where Bridget-- or someone else-- could have come in most handy.

[Allen]

I think the reason Bridget didn't see Lizzie is, contrary to Lizzie's inquest testimony, she spent a lot of time upstairs. A place where Bridget had no reason to go. If Lizzie was the killer she probably waited upstairs for her chance at Abby, committed the murder, cleaned herself up, changed clothes, maybe tried to compose herself,...etc. All upstairs. Lizzie denied seeing Bridget during the occassions, such as at the back door, because these incidents could've been construed as suspicious. She was mostly unaware of Bridgets movements because she hadn't been downstairs to witness them. She couldn't offer any information about them. Not knowing what Bridget had been doing while she was supposedly downstairs would've been suspicious also, so she claimed not to have seen her at all.

[SteveB]

This may seem rediculous or far-fetched to some, but (not wanting blood-stained clothes on the premises) perhaps Lizzie was nude when she commited one, or both, murders. Then, perhaps with help, i.e. Bridget, she washed and dressed. IMO if someone is capable of murder they are certainly capable of committing them nude, if it will benefit them.

[Allen]

I have a problem with the scenario of her committing the murders in the nude for two reasons. I believe if Abby had seen Lizzie coming towards her in the nude, there would've been some shocked outcry by her. Second I think it was stated that the windows downstairs in the sitting room and dining room had no curtains, and the blinds were opened. I will have to check on this, but I believe it's in testimony. I have often wondered if this was the case why someone standing near a window at Mrs. Churchills couldn't have possibly seen more of the events than they claimed?

I don't think Lizzie's dress left very much of her exposed to scrutiny. I think all she had to do was hurriedly change clothing and wash her hands and face. She could've worn Andrew's coat backwards, or the waterproof in the closet at the foot of the stairs, and covered her hair with something for Andrew's murder. She had plenty of time to clean up after Abby's murder, and would be more aware of what to avoid for Andrew's.

[1bigsteve]

I never felt that Bridget had anything to do with the killings. Lizzie could easily order Bridget in and out of the rooms and house at will so the killings could happen without Bridget witnessing anything. However, I do feel Bridget quickly put two and two together and decided to beat a hasty retreat out of that house. I think she felt that Lizzie was guilty or strongly suspected Lizzie of being involved.

-1bigsteve (o:

[Kat]

Good one Missy- I didn't know Mrs. Borden kept her gossamer in the closet at the foot of the stairs. That might have been a rather sizable garment, and taken up some room amongst the other items in there.

Trial
Emma
Q. I don’t know as I will bother about that. Did any of the members of your family have waterproofs?
A. Yes, we all had them.

Q. What kind were they?
A. Mrs. Borden’s was a gossamer, rubber.

Q. That is, you mean rubber on the outside?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. And black?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where was that hanging?
A. I think she kept it in the little press at the foot of the front stairs in the front hall.

Q. Did Miss Lizzie have one too?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Where did she keep hers?
A. In the clothes press at the top of the stairs.

Q. What kind of one was that?
A. Blue and brown plaid, an American cloth.

Q. And you had one too?
A. Mine was gossamer.

Q. Did you have yours with you in Fairhaven?
A. I did.

Page 1569

Q. So that was not at the house while you were gone?
A. No, sir.

[DJ]

I think Lizzie "lucked out" on a lot that day. What if Mr. Borden had brought someone home with him? For dinner! (We have a fine aged mutton on the bill of fare.)
Guess who's NOT coming to dinner.
Wonder what John Morse would have done if he'd returned under those circumstances, and discovered Abby's body. (Lizzie, you've got some splainin' to do.)
*************************************************************
Another "back of the mind" thought: That Bridget didn't think it odd that Abby didn't speak to her before leaving to tend to the party of concern mentioned in The Note. Especially, that Abby didn't make some quick reference to the preparation of dinner, in her absence. Whether she would be picking up something at the market on the way home, etc.
I wonder if Bridget had a sinking feeling that Abby's body was upstairs when Lizzie mentioned The Note.
That is, that Abby would leave without a few words with Bridget.

[Allen]

Here is the bit of testimony about the curtains and shutters.

Trial Testimony of Bridget Sullivan page 228:

Q. Then you say you went into the dining-room and sitting-room and left down the windows?
A. Yes.

Q. And what did you do to them, exactly?
A. Well, the windows was up, and I left down the windows.

Q. Shut them up?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you shut the windows in both rooms?
A. Yes, sir; there was a window up in both rooms.

Q. Were the curtains up or down in those rooms?
A. There was no curtains there.

Q. Were the shutters closed or open?
A. They was open at the bottom, I remember.

Q. Did you change their position at the time you shut the windows- the position of the shutters?
A.No, sir; I don't think I did.

[nbcatlover]

I've been reading Muriel Arnold's book. She believes Bridget committed the murders alone. She feels that the only window Bridget washed was the one Mrs. Churchill witnessed her washing. She also says that while Bridget when outside to vomit that morning, no vomitus was ever noted and that Dolan and others noted brown spots on the downstairs windows which could have been dirt or blood.

She also feels that many inconsistencies in Lizzie's statements were caused by what Bridget said, when Bridget was actually lying.

Personally, I need to go back and re-read the inquest and preliminary with an eye focused on the details of Bridget's testimony.

There's always that unusual "confession" Bridget wanted to make to her friend in Montana, when she thought she was dying.

[Kat]

Well, the inquest testimony of Bridget is gone from us, but maybe by reading the trial, one can piece together what she said, in essence- because I think Bridget was read back some of her inquest answers(?)
I've wanted to do that- just take out and look at what was read back to her. Maybe you will get to do that?

The mark on the window that we know about (and I don't know that Ms. Arnold would know any more about it) was in the guest room- so it was not downstairs that dirt was noted.
The guest room window mark was noticed because it was thought to be blood from the body, but they decided it was dirt. (This would be under Dolan's testimony.)

Also, if Bridget almost confessed (or made a statement) when she first thought she was dying- why didn't she make a statement when she really did die? (Someone mentioned that to me recently~not my own thought.)

I am not positive Bridget did wash the windows. No one mentioned seeing puddles of water around under the windows, and she didn't seem to be soaked after tossing water up into the air. (I would be soaked. I get soaked just using a hose, for some reason.)
We don't hear of any muddy footprints in the barn near the water faucet or in the house when Bridget would have been finished outside.

[Kat]

Missy, I now picture that big black gossamer raincoat as scaring the you-know-what out of whoever first opened that closet door that morning, looking for a hiding killer!

The testimony posted as to shutters and such- is that to show that you think Bridget was preparing to clean windows? I didn't quite catch the context?

[Allen]

I have a problem with the scenario of her committing the murders in the nude for two reasons. I believe if Abby had seen Lizzie coming towards her in the nude, there would've been some shocked outcry by her. Second I think it was stated that the windows downstairs in the sitting room and dining room had no curtains, and the blinds were opened. I will have to check on this, but I believe it's in testimony. I have often wondered if this was the case why someone standing near a window at Mrs. Churchills couldn't have possibly seen more of the events than they claimed?

If there were no curtains in the windows, and the shutters were opened, wouldn't there be a chance that someone at a window in one of the neighboring houses could've seen into the house?

[DJ]

I still find it strange that Bridget doesn't find it strange that Mrs. Borden has taken off, without some sort of instruction regarding dinner.
Also, Bridget is outside when the alleged note arrives. She's also outside when Mrs. Borden allegedly departs. However, she hears/sees none of that. Of course. However, doesn't she find that peculiar?
I just don't think Mrs. Borden would depart, and leave Bridget "dangling"-- what if Mrs. Borden couldn't make it back for dinner, having to tend to a sick friend or relative? Surely, Bridget would have found that odd.
Also, if Lizzie knew that a note had come, wouldn't HER logical question be, "Where to, and when will you be back?" However, SHE, too, is oblivious.
Also, on top of everything, when does Bridget plan to come down and prepare dinner? Mr. Borden is reclined on that couch, with the door closed to the kitchen. Does Lizzie and/or Bridget leave him to assume that someone's cooking dinner?
I still don't think Bridget committed the murders, but her actions come into question. I think she knew way more than she ever let on, regarding the events of that morning. She may have caught Lizzie in the act, or in the act of cleaning up. She may have discovered irrefutable evidence that Lizzie committed the murders. That may have been what she wished to confess, on her deathbed: that she knew something important, that she never told.
Bridget would have been easy enough to intimidate, to coerce into silence, with the threat that she would be accused if she spoke up. It's no wonder that she didn't.

[Allen]

Bridget seems to have made a statement to Mrs Churchill about Abby not telling her where she was going. Lizzie also stated that Abby had told her she was going to get the dinner, and asked her what she wanted. So Bridget may have assumed she would find out that days menu when Abby returned.

Trial testimony of Adeladie B. Churchill page 368:

Q. What did Bridget tell you about Mrs. Borden having a note?
A. She said Mrs. Borden had a note to go see some one that was sick, and she was dusting the sitting- room, and she hurried off, and says, "She didn't tell me where she was going; she generally does."

Q. That was what Bridget told you?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. That was not what Lizzie told you?
A. No, sir.

Q. Bridget said Mrs. Borden had a note.
A. Yes.

Q. And she hurried off?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. She was dusting the sitting-room?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. And Bridget says, "She didn't tell me where she was going; she generally does."?
A. Bridget said.

Q. Bridget said that?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. That was not what Lizzie said?
A. No, sir.

Q. Now, you have got that right, haven't you? No doubt about it?
A. That Bridget said that," Mrs. Borden had a note to go see some one that was sick. She was dusting in the sitting-room. She hurried off. She didn't tell me where she was going; she generally does."

The defense tried twisting it to look as though Bridget heard about the note directly from Abby, not that Lizzie had told her. But judging from the statement, in my opinion, she is giving second hand information to Mrs. Churchill. Relaying what Lizzie told her. Technically she could've meant Abby didn't tell her the exact location of the friend, but how often would Bridget have a need to go searching for Abby? I think just informing Bridget she was leaving would suffice. If Abby had told her directly about the note, she would've known basically where Abby was going and why. But she says,"She didn't tell me where she was going; she generally does."

I was thinking about something else earlier. I remember a previous discussion about why Bridget was scared to go upstairs to look for Abby after she had already been up after the sheets. Rereading her testimony it kind of hit me. I probably would've reacted the same way given the circumstances. When she went up after the sheets she believed Abby was not in the house. When Lizzie said she "thought she heard her come in" Bridget probably put two and two together. Abby wasn't in her room, she hadn't come downstairs after the ruckus of finding Andrew, after Lizzie yelling loud enough for Bridget to hear in the attic, and if Abby had come in the front door wouldn't one of the first sights to greet her have been Andrew on the sofa? I think everyone would've heard her! There had been people in the kitchen who would've seen her come in the back door. Bridget probably surmised that Abby was lieing upstairs in the guestroom.

Trial testimony of Bridget Sullivan page 248:

Q. Won't you state that again? I did not quite hear it. You said, "I says Lizzie, if I knew--" Now upon your return, what was said?
A. I said, "Miss Lizzie, if I knew where Mrs. Whitehead's was I would go see if Mrs. Borden is there." She said, "Maggie, I am almost positive I heard her coming in," she said, "I am sure she is upstairs." I said "I am not going up again."

[Allen]

Lizzie's inquest testimony page 65:

Q. Had you any knowledge of her going out of the house?
A. She told me she had had a note, somebody was sick, and said " I am going to get dinner on the way," and asked me what I wanted for dinner.

Q. Did you tell her?
A. Yes, I told her I did not want anything.

[kssunflower]

I'm wondering, if Bridget was somehow involved or discovered Lizzie's actions, if she didn't have the opportunity to dispose of evidence when she went to fetch Alice Russell?

[1bigsteve]

I'm wondering, if Bridget was somehow involved or discovered Lizzie's actions, if she didn't have the opportunity to dispose of evidence when she went to fetch Alice Russell?

I believe it was Radin who believed that Bridget had the hatchet hidden between her legs as she was going for the Doctor. But what would she have done with it? Throw it in a river in broad daylight? Ram it down a gopher hole? I don't think Radin ever explained what he thinks Bridget had done with it. Perhaps she kept it under her dress until she could sneak out and get rid of it, or put it in her suit case as she was leaving that night and got rid of it under cover of darkness. I never felt that Bridget knew of the crime ahead of time or worked with Lizzie to cover it up. I think she put two and two together after the crime and left the house out of fear of being next. I'm sure she knew a lot more about the goings on than she reported. I think she kept her views to herself out of fear.

-1bigsteve (o:

[Wordweaver]

I think Lizzie "lucked out" on a lot that day. What if Mr. Borden had brought someone home with him? For dinner! (We have a fine aged mutton on the bill of fare.)
Guess who's NOT coming to dinner.
Wonder what John Morse would have done if he'd returned under those circumstances, and discovered Abby's body. (Lizzie, you've got some splainin' to do.)

I doubt that Andrew *ever* brought anyone home, with or without warning. He doesn't strike me as the kind of warm-hearted, spontaneous fellow who would do that -- and I am not sure such informal invitations would be at all usual in Fall River's Yankee culture. Even if he did, he would have been smarter than to bring someone home to rotten mutton and nausea.

I don't think Uncle John would have come home to dinner, because I strongly suspect that he heard or saw something (maybe he heard Abby fall) that made him realize violence was afoot. Why else would he prepare such a detailed alibi with the precise street-car numbers?

[Kat]

Uncle John was coming back for dinner tho- that's the point- he was asked by Andrew to come back. Warm & fuzzy feelings or not- he did extend that invitation.. Then when DJ mentions Andrew on the couch- I picture him waiting for Morse's arrival- as maybe Bridget was too, before heating up the dinner. But wouldn't Bridget hear people start coming home (from her room) and that would spark her knowledge that the family was near to getting ready to want to eat? If Bridget rested in her room most days before dinner, what would be her *signal* (so to speak) to get up and get busy? I wonder what Bridget's criteria was as to when to get up to make the dinner, usually?
I think she would get the food ready whether Mrs. Borden had returned or not. In those days the men got fed, period.

As for the 9 a.m. timing, it's an interesting point: that Bridget goes out to vomit but does not know if Mrs. Borden has left to respond to a note around that time. But maybe Abby was assumed to have left by the front door, if she was not seen after that. Did Bridget see Mrs. Borden in the dining room before she vomited? If so, and then Bridget went outside to throw up- Andrew had left but she did not see him go either.
In my own timeline, of Bridget, from the testimony at the Prelim. everything happened around 9 a.m. giving 5 or 6 minutes either side of that.

[Susan]

I still find it strange that Bridget doesn't find it strange that Mrs. Borden has taken off, without some sort of instruction regarding dinner.
Also, Bridget is outside when the alleged note arrives. She's also outside when Mrs. Borden allegedly departs. However, she hears/sees none of that. Of course. However, doesn't she find that peculiar?
I just don't think Mrs. Borden would depart, and leave Bridget "dangling"-- what if Mrs. Borden couldn't make it back for dinner, having to tend to a sick friend or relative? Surely, Bridget would have found that odd.

DJ, do you have access to the Preliminary documents? Though I can't find anything on whether Abby told Bridget what to make for dinner, or Bridget was instructed to use what she had at hand unless told otherwise? But, she did have some sort of menu for dinner the day of the murders.

From the Preliminary Volume 1, page 26, Bridget on the stand:

Q. Do you know what the dinner was that day?
A. Yes Sir, some soup to warm over, and some cold mutton.

Q. Potatoes?
A. No Sir; potatoes in the soup.

Q. Had you put the soup on when you went up stairs?
A. No Sir.

Q. You were coming down to do that about half past eleven?
A. Yes Sir.

Q. Cold mutton, of course, did not require any cooking at all?
A. No Sir.

[Harry]

I couldn't find any direct reference as to Mrs. Borden instructing Bridget what to prepare for dinner. Need to do a little more digging.

However, I did find this interesting. Bridget is being questioned under cross-examination at the Trial:

"Page 270

Q. Could you tell us just what Mrs. Borden did the Tuesday before when she came down stairs?
A. The Tuesday morning?

Q. Yes.
A. Why, she went in the sitting-room as usual.

Q. Well, not as usual. I want to know what you remember about it?
A. Why, the woman came down stairs and wanted to know what was for breakfast and so forth, and went into her sitting-room and stayed there until her breakfast was ready."

Can we infer from this exchange that usually Bridget decided what was for breakfast?

[Allen]

I couldn't find any direct reference as to Mrs. Borden instructing Bridget what to prepare for dinner. Need to do a little more digging.

However, I did find this interesting. Bridget is being questioned under cross-examination at the Trial:

"Page 270

Q. Could you tell us just what Mrs. Borden did the Tuesday before when she came down stairs?
A. The Tuesday morning?

Q. Yes.
A. Why, she went in the sitting-room as usual.

Q. Well, not as usual. I want to know what you remember about it?
A. Why, the woman came down stairs and wanted to know what was for breakfast and so forth, and went into her sitting-room and stayed there until her breakfast was ready."

Can we infer from this exchange that usually Bridget decided what was for breakfast?

That would be my personal opinion on the exchange. It sounds as though Bridget might have planned the menu at least on that morning.

[DJ]

Bridget SAYS she's going to warm up soup and re-serve the re-served mutton.
Lizzie SAYS Mrs. Borden allegedly said she was going to get the (fixings for) dinner.
Which leads us to wonder what Mr. Borden was expecting-- Bridget's version of dinner, or Lizzie's version.
***********************************************************
If Bridget did have an understanding with Mrs. Borden about dinner, and then Bridget heard Lizzie's "tale"-- well, Bridget would have to be suspicious then, at least.

[diana]

On page 215 of the Prelim. Bridget is asked what the family had for breakfast on the morning of the murders. According to her testimony Abby does ask Bridget what's available for breakfast, but it is Abby who suggests rounding off the morning menu with johnny cakes and coffee -- and she seems to feel there would be enough soup and mutton for the noon meal as well. Is it possible that after they'd tucked in at breakfast, Abby thought she might have to make a visit to the store for more supplies?

"Mrs. Borden came down directly, before I had anything underway; she asked me what did I have for breakfast. I told her. She said John is in the house. I says is that so? . . . I told her there was nothing, sure, but soup and cold mutton. She said she thought they'd have that for dinner. She says there will be plenty for dinner too. She told me to warm it over, and make johnny cakes, and have coffee."

Missy, I now picture that big black gossamer raincoat as scaring the you-know-what out of whoever first opened that closet door that morning, looking for a hiding killer! . . .

That's interesting. I've always thought of the 'gossamer' as a very light filmy garment. Merriam-Webster, for example defines gossamer as: "1 : a film of cobwebs floating in air in calm clear weather 2 : something light, delicate, or insubstantial".

But a black rubber raincoat doesn't fit that description, does it! I wonder why they were called gossamers?

[Susan]

Thanks, Diana. I was looking for that and couldn't find it. Since Bridget did the cooking, she was probably more aware of what was available to eat in the house, hence Abby asking her. But, it sounds as though Abby set the menu. Makes me wonder how much mutton was left after eating it for so many meals?

[Kat]

It is possible that, after breakfast, Abbie felt she did need to supplement the food by getting more groceries, hence she might have said - after now knowing Morse would be returning for dinner- that she should go out and get some.
Hmmm...
A couple of the ladies in this story, except for Mrs. Dr. Bowen, did go get groceries before the murders: Mrs. Churchill and Mrs. Emery. Why not Abbie- as she now had a guest.

Yes Diana, I think of a *gossamer* as a whispery-light thing- but to be black, rubber, and cover Abbie's big dresses and just be hanging there upon opening that shallow closet! Wow!
(Maybe it was folded up on a shelf?)

[Angel]

Allen, this is off the subject, but I just noticed your avatar. It's such a pretty picture. Do you know who the woman is?

[Allen]

Thanks Angel. It is actually a picture of Bonnie Parker.

[SallyG]

Bridget SAYS she's going to warm up soup and re-serve the re-served mutton.
Lizzie SAYS Mrs. Borden allegedly said she was going to get the (fixings for) dinner.
Which leads us to wonder what Mr. Borden was expecting-- Bridget's version of dinner, or Lizzie's version.
***********************************************************
If Bridget did have an understanding with Mrs. Borden about dinner, and then Bridget heard Lizzie's "tale"-- well, Bridget would have to be suspicious then, at least.

I was contemplating why Lizzie would say Abby told her she was going out to see a sick friend, etc, etc, etc....why not just play dumb? What was the purpose of the story? Then I realized she had to have some reason not to have seen Abby all morning. If anyone questioned where Abby was, she had to have a story...she probably could not just say "I don't know". That may have sounded very suspicious..at least for that particular household, who may have known what every member of the family was doing most of the time. But having the story about Abby going out prevented anyone from looking around the house for her and finding her body prematurely.

I would think if Abby was going on a sick call, she would have not expected to be back in time for dinner, let alone stop and buy it. That may have been a touch Lizzie threw in to make the conversation sound casual and ordinary..Abby going out on a sick call...before she really thought it through. Then, she probably realized she had to stick with the story. That probably raised Bridget's eyebrows a bit...since she already had a menu for dinner...why would Abby be buying more food for dinner?

I don't think Bridget had anything to do with the murders...but I think she put two and two together real quick. Bridget probably covered a bit for Lizzie because she liked her...but also because she realized it would be very easy for her to be accused of the murders herself. Lizzie could have easily accused Bridget of the murders and Bridget would probably have been convicted...she was an Irish immigrant...many people at that time had no use for the Irish, anyway. She was probably more than willing to help out any way she could.

I've always thought that what Bridget wanted to "confess" was that she had lied a bit on the stand and that she was pretty certain Lizzie had done it. As an Irish Catholic girl, she would have had that hanging over her all her life and would have wanted to clear her conscience before she died...I would be interested to know, which I never will, if she confessed anything to a priest during her lifetime?

[DJ]

Well, SallyG, you're playing the song that's been buzzing in my head-- Lizzie says Abby will be bringing "the meat" (Abby's supposedly even asked La Liz, according to herownself, what she would like-- as if!!!).
However, Bridget's going to warm over soup and re-serve the aged mutton.
No way would Mrs. Borden leave that house, with a change in plans for dinner, and not tell Bridget. Nor would she have asked Lizzie to pass along the instructions. Abby would have given them directly to Bridget, because preparing dinner was Bridget's job, not Lizzie's.
(Furthermore, I doubt Abby would even trust Lizzie to pass on the information, particularly if Abby suspicioned she had recently been poisoned.)

[Allen]

I have never believed there ever was any note, and I have never believed that any such conversation took place between Abby and Lizzie. I think Lizzie fabricated the whole thing from start to finish. She needed a reason to keep Andrew and Bridget from wondering where Abby was, and to keep them from asking any questions. So she left the house to see a sick friend (don't look for the body), and she had said she was getting the dinner on the way (to keep Bridget from wondering.) It is also possible that by dinner they are not referring to the noon meal, which we refer to as lunch, but had been referring to dinner. So maybe it was warmed over mutton for the noon meal, and then Bridget may have wondered what was for dinner. Sorry for all the edits but my browser is being a pain.

[DJ]

Of course-- it's Lizzie's word alone that there was a note. There was a "great call" for the sender, and no one stepped forward.
Moreover, given what Lizzie said about Abby picking up something for dinner, and asking Lizzie what she wanted:
Bridget would have seen how "wrong" that was, how untrue it seemed, given that Mrs. Borden said nothing of that to her, Bridget, who was supposed to prepare dinner.
Secondly, the "What would you like, Lizzie?" element of what Lizzie attributed to Abby could have been an attempt to make their relations seem more-- "cordial."

[Allen]

Given that Abby was the lady of the house, and not Bridget who only prepared the dinner, technically Abby could buy whatever she wanted for the meal and not consult Bridget about anything but cooking it. I'm sure that Bridget probably did find it odd that Abby left without telling her. But then it seems that Bridget pretty much made her own schedule when it came to taking care of her chores. She may only have had to consult Abby about the meals (what to cook), and ask if there was any special duties she had for her that day.

[Allen]

If Lizzie told Bridget that Abby had gotten a note to visit someone who was sick, the first person that Bridget thinks Abby may have gone to see is her sister Mrs. Whitehead. In my opinion, this implies that would be her usual calling place. How many other people there in Fall River would specifically send for Abby in a time of sickness? With the reward offered nobody stepped forward to claim it. If someone besides Lizzie was really intent on killing Abby, they could've lured her away from the house with said note and killed her at another location. That is another reason I think the note was just a cover up by Lizzie.

[SallyG]

Obviously, there was no note; Lizzie made that up. If she made that up, doesn't that point to her as being the murderer? Why else would she have fabricated the story of the note for Abby?

Once people begin arriving after Andrews murder, she repeats the statement that she thought she heard Abby come in and wants someone to search for her. Obviously she knows where her body is and wants it found as well.

If Abby had come in the front door, and heard several people in the dining room and kitchen, does it not make sense that she would have immediately come in to see what was going on? Why would she have gone straight upstairs to the guest room? Even if she came in the side door, she would have encountered strange people and come in to find out what had happened...not just go up to her room!

Lizzie alone had motive and opportunity. No one else was in the house, no one was seen entering or leaving the house. The broken hatchet was more than likely the murder weapon. There had been no opportunity to dispose of any other murder weapon. And the dress that she burned was probably the one she wore to commit the murders. The police had done several searches and no one reported finding that dress in the cupboard previously. Lizzie had plenty of time to clean up after she murdered Abby...and a quick clean up after murdering Andrew. Any bloody water from the washbowl could have been poured in the slop pail and needed no explanation, since she was at the end of her period.

And, as I said, I think poor Bridget would have been happy to repeat any story she was told to tell, as long as it kept her from being accused!

[Allen]

In my opinion, if Abby had come in the front door one of the first things she would've seen is Andrew laying on the couch, unless she went directly upstairs to the guestroom without so much as a glance toward the sitting room. I think anyone near would've heard her come in once she saw Andrew. I believe the "I thought I heard her come in" statement was for the intent of getting Abby found, as SallyG also stated. But she didnt want to be the one to "find" it. So she had to steer the search. I think there were many reasons she wanted the body found. But in my opinion I think she probably wanted to get up to her room and away from all the commotion and questioning downstairs. I also think she might have wanted to change clothing, just as she did, to hide some possible evidence. It's eerie to think of Lizzie upstairs in her room on her lounge with Abby laying dead on the guest room floor.

[Allen]

Lizzie had plenty of time to clean up after she murdered Abby...and a quick clean up after murdering Andrew. Any bloody water from the washbowl could have been poured in the slop pail and needed no explanation, since she was at the end of her period.

That's a very good point SallyG. Lizzie could have possibly emptied the water from cleaning up into her slop pail.

It's possible the slop pail Lizzie brought down that morning, the one Bridget saw her set down in the kitchen, could have been used to transport the hatchet upstairs. Lizzie admits she made a trip down cellar. She could have slipped the hatchet inside and taken it back upstairs.

[Allen]

Secondly, the "What would you like, Lizzie?" element of what Lizzie attributed to Abby could have been an attempt to make their relations seem more-- "cordial."

That's an interesting observation DJ. I had never looked at it like that before. Lizzie creates the exchange adding little touches to make it appear she and Abby were on good terms with each other.

[morgan]

Bridget sure did a good job of keeping her mouth shut. I don't think she did any actual killing, don't think she even witnessed any.

[DJ]

Hey, Morgan!
I'm with you on Bridget's being nonparticipatory.
However, she may well have come across some key evidence, or just suspicioned Lizzie on enough scores to convince herself (Bridget) of Lizzie's guilt.
We've discussed the infamous note.
Also, there's the pail of bloody cloths in the cellar. Bridget tells the police on the Fatal Fourth that they (the cloths) cannot have been down there as many days as Lizzie claims. That she (Bridget) would have washed them by then. (BTW: It would have been clever of Lizzie to have used her monthly "cloths" to clean up after she killed Abby-- the cloths would probably have been dampened first, and she couldn't very well burn THEM.) If Bridget was right, and she knew it, wouldn't that have been enough for her to be convinced about Lizzie?
Also, Bridget was privy to (probably highly heated) household conversations among Mr. Borden, Mrs. Borden, Lizzie, and Emma.
These three "for-instance's" may be just the tip of the iceberg, insofar as Bridget's suspicion of Lizzie. Perhaps Bridget came across something that convinced her beyond the proverbial "reasonable doubt."
*************************************************************
I wager that Miss Bridget Sullivan would have done quite a bit of squawking, however, if someone had accused HER. I believe that's why Lizzie knew she had much more to lose than to gain by implicating Bridget, and that is why she never did implicate her.
In return, Bridget kept her mouth shut, as you say.

[kssunflower]

I wager that Miss Bridget Sullivan would have done quite a bit of squawking, however, if someone had accused HER. I believe that's why Lizzie knew she had much more to lose than to gain by implicating Bridget, and that is why she never did implicate her. In return, Bridget kept her mouth shut, as you say.

Good point, DJ. I'm sure her court testimony would have been much more truthful if she were under suspicion.

[SallyG]

That is a good point...Lizzie probably knew that if she fingered Bridget, Bridget knew where a lot of skeletons were buried. It probably WAS a wise move to keep her out of it. And I still think Bridget was paid off for her favorable testimony.

[snokkums]

Hi Morgan, welcome to the forum. I do think that Bridget had alittle something to do with the murder after the fact. Maybe helping clean Lizzie up. Don't think she had anything to do with the murders, or any idea or planning of the murders. I don't think she had the knowledge of them, at least until after the fact.

[Debbie]

Several posts back talks about Bridget washing the windows. I know this is really out there, but that would have given her an excuse to be wet. If she were in on the murders and needed to get blood from her hair, would that not have been a good excuse for being wet. I know some time had passed between the window washing and the discovery of the body. Maybe she could have been dry by that time, but I don't remember reading anywhere about whether she was dry or wet when Mr. Borden's body was found.
I seem to go back and forth as far as guild on the part of Lizzie and Bridget. I will read one book and think one way and then another and start thinking a different way.
However, it really bothers me Lizzie's hair was dry. I know she could have covered her hair, but wasn't it noted her hair was perfect and not out of place right after she sent out the cry of murder. If her hair were so completely covered as to not get bloody, I would have thought she would have had to tidy up her appearance. Wasn't it noted by the doctor the blood was still coming from the wounds and this had just happened a few minutes before?
Since we have so many knowledgeable others here, I would love to hear their opinion.

[Kat]

I'm late getting to page 2 here on this topic. I have a couple of commets:

It was mentioned that if Abby went out "on a sick call, she would have not expected to be back in time for dinner, let alone stop and buy it."-- I can only give examples of other women in the case who were a part of the family or neighborhood, who did stop what they were doing (about being in the murder house, say) to go get the dinner. And getting the dinner (noon meal explicitly) may not have involved the store but at least a prepared meal for men coming home who expected to eat. Mrs. Borden could easily time her going out and returning around the noon meal, especially if it was thought a note came around 9 a.m.

Mrs. Dr. Bowen was *sent home* by Dr. Bowen, and he did go home and most probably had his dinner. Mrs. Churchill had her responsibilities to her family -and maybe her boarders -to go fix the food she had previously gotten on her trip to the store earlier. Also, Mrs. Emery waited until Morse left and right away went to the store herself.

So I think that Abbie wanting to go shopping before dinner was not unusual, especially since she now had Morse there and he had been asked back. Bridget may have known from Abbie that Morse was due back for a meal, tho she did not hear Morse's answer to Andrew. I remember asking earlier what family *cues* Bridget relied upon to get herself up after her lie-down. It may have been waiting to hear Mrs. Borden return with the fresh shopping to supplement the meal. If so, she would not be in any hurry to get up until new groceries came.

I do agree that Lizzie saying Mrs. Borden told her her plans, and supposedly asked Lizzie what she wanted for meat, sounds far-fetched, because of their relationship and also because Lizzie doesn't seem to eat there much. But maybe the family had been trying to be more cordial for real, and that might be Abbie's attempt at small talk.

[Kat]

It was posted that "The broken hatchet was more than likely the murder weapon. There had been no opportunity to dispose of any other murder weapon."-- I don't necessarily agree, because the first weapon fixed upon seemed a good candidate to me- the claw-head hatchet. It even had a fibre on it. It was the one stuck in the chopping block. It was the one that came to be shown at the preliminary hearing. That was not hidden, but it was given up later as the weapon.

If the HH was used, it would have taken time to clean up, and if the handle was not deliberately broken (which would take time) it was at least rinsed and *disguised* in ashes- and put away- so obviously there was time.
If the HH was not the murder weapon, then obviously the real weapon was hidden or removed from the premises, so there had to be time to do that.