I have always wondered about this. If someone else had come in and "killed father", why noone heard anything, sayw anything. I mean, unless the person broke in, in which, something would have been heard, somebody had to have let the person in, I which case, two people still living, the person had the possibly of being identified.
This is the reason I have always thought that the murders were and inside job. And I wonder how much Bridget knew. How are you going to be going in and out of the house cleaning windows and not hear a thud of a 200 pound body falling to the floor.
Some one has come in and killed him
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snokkums
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Some one has come in and killed him
Suicide is painless It brings on many changes and I will take my leave when I please.
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Cheryl
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Yooper
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Besides, according to Lizzie, "it wasn't Bridget or anyone who works for father" (!).
Even if Bridget had heard Abby hit the floor from outside, she probably wouldn't have thought it was someone falling to the floor; why would she? It might have been a door slamming or something being dropped, any number of things would come to mind before thinking of a person falling. Besides, Bridget thought both Abby and Lizzie were inside, and one or the other would investigate the cause of the sound.
If Bridget did hear something unusual from outside, I'll bet it didn't take her long to add up the score when she found Abby's body!
Even if Bridget had heard Abby hit the floor from outside, she probably wouldn't have thought it was someone falling to the floor; why would she? It might have been a door slamming or something being dropped, any number of things would come to mind before thinking of a person falling. Besides, Bridget thought both Abby and Lizzie were inside, and one or the other would investigate the cause of the sound.
If Bridget did hear something unusual from outside, I'll bet it didn't take her long to add up the score when she found Abby's body!
To do is to be. ~Socrates
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
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Kat
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Brownnnn....Brownnnn....Brownnnn....,
Q.E.D.
You've discovered my secret, Kat!! Boy, THAT'S a scary thought!!
I have no source for the quotation, only something I remembered reading for which I thought a source had earlier been cited. I stand corrected.
Q.E.D.
You've discovered my secret, Kat!! Boy, THAT'S a scary thought!!
I have no source for the quotation, only something I remembered reading for which I thought a source had earlier been cited. I stand corrected.
To do is to be. ~Socrates
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
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Bob Gutowski
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Kat
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Yes of course, good question!
But that is what someone said Lizzie said. (Whether the quotes mean someone here or a witness at the time.)...
To be fair to Lizzie, she is recorded as claiming to say she thought Andrew was hurt, and that she did not say she thought she heard Abbie come in.
Inquest
78(35)
Q. Describe anything else you noticed at that time.
A. I did not notice anything else, I was so frightened and horrified. I ran to the foot of the stairs and called Maggie.
Q. Did you notice that he had been cut?
A. Yes; that is what made me afraid.
Q. Did you notice that he was dead?
A. I did not know whether he was or not.
Q. Did you make any search for your mother?
A. No, sir.
Q. Why not?
A. I thought she was out of the house; I thought she had gone out. I called Maggie to go to Dr. Bowen's. When they came I said, "I don't know where Mrs. Borden is." I thought she had gone out.
Q. Did you tell Maggie you thought your mother had come in?
A. No, sir.
Q. That you thought you heard her come in?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you say to anybody that you thought she was killed up stairs?
A. No, sir.
Q. To anybody?
A. No, sir.
Q. You made no effort to find your mother at all?
A. No, sir.
Q. Who did you send Maggie for?
A. Dr. Bowen. She came back and said Dr. Bowen was not there.
Q. What did you tell Maggie?
A. I told her he was hurt.
Q. When you first told her?
A. I says "Go for Dr. Bowen as soon as you can, I think father is hurt."
Q. Did you then know that he was dead?
A. No, sir.
. . . .
83(40)
(Judge Blaisdell)—Was there any effort made by the witness to notify Mrs. Borden of the fact that Mr. Borden was found?
Q. Did you make any effort to notify Mrs. Borden of your father being killed?
A. No sir, when I found him I rushed right to the foot of the stairs for Maggie. I supposed Mrs. Borden was out. I did not think anything about her at the time, I was so—
Q. At any time did you say anything about her to anybody?
A. No sir.
Q. To the effect that she was out?
A. I told father when he came in.
Q. After your father was killed?
A. No sir.
Q. Did you say you thought she was up stairs?
A. No sir.
Q. Did you ask them to look up stairs?
A. No sir.
Q. Did you suggest to anybody to search up stairs?
A. I said, "I don't know where Mrs. Borden is;" that is all I said.
Q. You did not suggest that any search be made for her?
A. No sir.
Q. You did not make any yourself?
A. No sir.
Q. I want you to give me all that you did, by way of word or deed, to see whether your mother was dead or not, when you found your father was dead.
A. I did not do anything, except what I said to Mrs. Churchill. I said to her: "I don't know where Mrs. Borden is. I think she is out, but I wish you would look."
Q. You did ask her to look?
A. I said that to Mrs. Churchill.
Q. Where did you intend for her to look?
A. In Mrs. Borden's room.
But that is what someone said Lizzie said. (Whether the quotes mean someone here or a witness at the time.)...
To be fair to Lizzie, she is recorded as claiming to say she thought Andrew was hurt, and that she did not say she thought she heard Abbie come in.
Inquest
78(35)
Q. Describe anything else you noticed at that time.
A. I did not notice anything else, I was so frightened and horrified. I ran to the foot of the stairs and called Maggie.
Q. Did you notice that he had been cut?
A. Yes; that is what made me afraid.
Q. Did you notice that he was dead?
A. I did not know whether he was or not.
Q. Did you make any search for your mother?
A. No, sir.
Q. Why not?
A. I thought she was out of the house; I thought she had gone out. I called Maggie to go to Dr. Bowen's. When they came I said, "I don't know where Mrs. Borden is." I thought she had gone out.
Q. Did you tell Maggie you thought your mother had come in?
A. No, sir.
Q. That you thought you heard her come in?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you say to anybody that you thought she was killed up stairs?
A. No, sir.
Q. To anybody?
A. No, sir.
Q. You made no effort to find your mother at all?
A. No, sir.
Q. Who did you send Maggie for?
A. Dr. Bowen. She came back and said Dr. Bowen was not there.
Q. What did you tell Maggie?
A. I told her he was hurt.
Q. When you first told her?
A. I says "Go for Dr. Bowen as soon as you can, I think father is hurt."
Q. Did you then know that he was dead?
A. No, sir.
. . . .
83(40)
(Judge Blaisdell)—Was there any effort made by the witness to notify Mrs. Borden of the fact that Mr. Borden was found?
Q. Did you make any effort to notify Mrs. Borden of your father being killed?
A. No sir, when I found him I rushed right to the foot of the stairs for Maggie. I supposed Mrs. Borden was out. I did not think anything about her at the time, I was so—
Q. At any time did you say anything about her to anybody?
A. No sir.
Q. To the effect that she was out?
A. I told father when he came in.
Q. After your father was killed?
A. No sir.
Q. Did you say you thought she was up stairs?
A. No sir.
Q. Did you ask them to look up stairs?
A. No sir.
Q. Did you suggest to anybody to search up stairs?
A. I said, "I don't know where Mrs. Borden is;" that is all I said.
Q. You did not suggest that any search be made for her?
A. No sir.
Q. You did not make any yourself?
A. No sir.
Q. I want you to give me all that you did, by way of word or deed, to see whether your mother was dead or not, when you found your father was dead.
A. I did not do anything, except what I said to Mrs. Churchill. I said to her: "I don't know where Mrs. Borden is. I think she is out, but I wish you would look."
Q. You did ask her to look?
A. I said that to Mrs. Churchill.
Q. Where did you intend for her to look?
A. In Mrs. Borden's room.
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Bob Gutowski
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True. But Lizzie is pretty wiggly in her direct inquest testimony, isn't she? As if her cries for Maggie to come down wouldn't have been heard by Abby, sitting in her bedroom, eating pears or crocheting, or whatever. I feel in my bones (totally subjectively) that the quote is probably correct; that Lizzie was dying (har, har!) for them to find that second body. I still feel sure Liz thought that people would think the folks were killed at the same time, seeing as how she didn't have cable and couldn't watch "Forensic Follies" on The History Channel. :)
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Kat
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Sure, we have to listen to our gut.
[This is one of those *common* misapprehensions tho, so I am going to paste it over on the topic I created for readers and researchers.
By *common*, I mean we always hear it attributed to Lizzie, yet the true source should be cited: as say, Bridget or Mrs. Churchill, or whomever...]
[This is one of those *common* misapprehensions tho, so I am going to paste it over on the topic I created for readers and researchers.
By *common*, I mean we always hear it attributed to Lizzie, yet the true source should be cited: as say, Bridget or Mrs. Churchill, or whomever...]
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Bob Gutowski
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Yooper
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Lizzie said a great many things with respect to the murders, unfortunately, seldom the same thing twice. She heard a groan from outside, heard a scraping sound, then, when questioned by the authorities, she heard nothing from the yard or from the barn. She certainly didn't hear Abby doing anything, Abby had died about an hour and a half earlier. It would have been better for Lizzie to keep up with the groan/scraping sound story, she would have been more credible in her contention of a murderer escaping. Lizzie would have been better served by unlocking the front door, also. The best thing would be to find the door wide open when police arrived, or at least ajar. This would have provided for a believable escape route by an intruder.
Lizzie's habit of changing her story makes others, whose contradictory testimony on the same point is consistent from Inquest through the trial, all the more believable.
Lizzie's habit of changing her story makes others, whose contradictory testimony on the same point is consistent from Inquest through the trial, all the more believable.
To do is to be. ~Socrates
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
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Kat
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Yes indeed.
Did you ever see one of those Court TV shows where they have a false confession? The psychology behind it is very elusive, but the more real interrogations I see that result in a false confession, gives me more clues about the lack of sophistication of the suspect.
BTW: once you actually hear Lizzie's testimony, admittedly by an actress and directed as to how to interpret the answers and how to pose the questions- it is pretty much a guarantee to give a new perspective on Lizzie. She becomes real and human. We have a recording like this, I think from Terence's Collection.
Did you ever see one of those Court TV shows where they have a false confession? The psychology behind it is very elusive, but the more real interrogations I see that result in a false confession, gives me more clues about the lack of sophistication of the suspect.
BTW: once you actually hear Lizzie's testimony, admittedly by an actress and directed as to how to interpret the answers and how to pose the questions- it is pretty much a guarantee to give a new perspective on Lizzie. She becomes real and human. We have a recording like this, I think from Terence's Collection.
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Harry
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Here's a bit more confusing testimony by Lizzie at the Inquest about where Bridget was when her father came home. (p60+):
"Q. What was Maggie doing when your father came home?
A. I don't know whether she was there or whether she had gone up stairs; I can't remember.
Q. Who let your father in?
A. I think he came to the front door and rang the bell, and I think Maggie let him in, and he said he had forgotten his key; so I think she must have been down stairs."
Then on page 67+
"Q. So far as you know you were alone in the lower part of the house, a large portion of the time, after your father went away, and before he came back?
A. My father did not go away I think until somewhere about 10, as near as I can remember; he was with me down stairs.
Q. A large portion of the time after your father went away, and before he came back, so far as you know, you were alone in the house?
A. Maggie had come in and gone up stairs."
Put aside that she said he left about 10 as that is obviously wrong and she may have meant to say 9-ish. That's forgivable under the circumstances. But Bridget went upstairs before Andrew came home? Huh?
Later on page 69 she is asked:
"Q. How soon after your father came in, before Maggie went up stairs?
A. I don't know. I did not see her.
Q. Did you see her after your father came in?
A. Not after she let him in."
It is confusing testimony like this that makes me think Lizzie is making up her testimony as she goes along. Or she is indeed high on morphine.
"Q. What was Maggie doing when your father came home?
A. I don't know whether she was there or whether she had gone up stairs; I can't remember.
Q. Who let your father in?
A. I think he came to the front door and rang the bell, and I think Maggie let him in, and he said he had forgotten his key; so I think she must have been down stairs."
Then on page 67+
"Q. So far as you know you were alone in the lower part of the house, a large portion of the time, after your father went away, and before he came back?
A. My father did not go away I think until somewhere about 10, as near as I can remember; he was with me down stairs.
Q. A large portion of the time after your father went away, and before he came back, so far as you know, you were alone in the house?
A. Maggie had come in and gone up stairs."
Put aside that she said he left about 10 as that is obviously wrong and she may have meant to say 9-ish. That's forgivable under the circumstances. But Bridget went upstairs before Andrew came home? Huh?
Later on page 69 she is asked:
"Q. How soon after your father came in, before Maggie went up stairs?
A. I don't know. I did not see her.
Q. Did you see her after your father came in?
A. Not after she let him in."
It is confusing testimony like this that makes me think Lizzie is making up her testimony as she goes along. Or she is indeed high on morphine.
I know I ask perfection of a quite imperfect world
And fool enough to think that's what I'll find
And fool enough to think that's what I'll find
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william
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Yes, Harry, the morphine could have confused her mind. I don't believe answering over 800 questions helped her already befuddled thought processes. I have expeienced interrogation on the witness stand - it's not a picnic even when you're attempting to tell the truth. Those lawyers can really confuse you - (and after alll - isn't that why they get the big bucks?)
Don't misunderstand me - I still think Lizzie was aa guilty as sin!
Don't misunderstand me - I still think Lizzie was aa guilty as sin!
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Yooper
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It is important to remember that not all of Lizzie's contradictions took place while she was taking morphine. The groan/scraping/nothing she heard from outside the house was from the police notes shortly after police arrived, or came from the testimony of others, but it was at a time when Lizzie had not taken the drug.
Another important point is that Lizzie was never prescribed an overdose, or double dose, of morphine. Her initial prescription was for a fractional dose, I think it was a half-dose, which was subsequently doubled to a full dose. I'm surprised that the prosecution didn't try to clear that up with Dr. Bowen at the time. I'm not sure how a full dose of morphine would affect a person, however.
Another important point is that Lizzie was never prescribed an overdose, or double dose, of morphine. Her initial prescription was for a fractional dose, I think it was a half-dose, which was subsequently doubled to a full dose. I'm surprised that the prosecution didn't try to clear that up with Dr. Bowen at the time. I'm not sure how a full dose of morphine would affect a person, however.
To do is to be. ~Socrates
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
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Yooper
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The more I think about it, we may be able to draw a conclusion about the effect of morphine on Lizzie. Since Lizzie was giving contradictory information before the morphine was prescribed, (groan/scrape/nothing with respect to what she heard and iron/lead for her reason for going to the barn), and contradictory information after the morphine was prescribed, then the morphine was having no effect where Lizzie's contradictory statements are concerned. The morphine was not the source of the contradictions. The contradictions right after the murders were given before Lizzie was aware she was suspected, also. We can't chalk the contradictions up to the stress of being suspected as the murderer, either.
To do is to be. ~Socrates
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
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Susan
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From what I could find, the standard oral dosage of morphine is 5mg to 10mg pill. A 10mg pill contains 1/6th of a grain of morphine. 1 gram = 15.43 grains of morphine. According to Dr. Bowen's trial testimony, Lizzie was given 1/8th of a grain of morphine initially and that dosage was doubled:
page 327, trial volume 1:
Q. You directed morphine to be taken?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. In what doses?
A. One-eighth of a grain.
Q. When?
A. Friday night, at bedtime.
Q. The next day you changed that?
A. I did not change the medicine, but doubled the dose.
Though it isn't quite clear, I wonder if this was directed to be taken by Dr. Bowen only at bedtime to help Lizzie sleep? From what I can tell from my searches, morphine's effects wear off after about 4 hours. If it was only given at bedtime, Lizzie shouldn't have had any problems with memory or hallucinations, etc. If it was given to Lizzie during the day, I find it a strange choice as morphine is overall a painkiller. Why give a painkiller to someone who as far as we know was in no intense physical pain?
As a sleep aid, I can testify having had a morphine shot when I had kidney stones, it works very well; puts you right out. That I can definitely see whether Lizzie was guilty or no, having problems sleeping with all the excitement going on.
page 327, trial volume 1:
Q. You directed morphine to be taken?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. In what doses?
A. One-eighth of a grain.
Q. When?
A. Friday night, at bedtime.
Q. The next day you changed that?
A. I did not change the medicine, but doubled the dose.
Though it isn't quite clear, I wonder if this was directed to be taken by Dr. Bowen only at bedtime to help Lizzie sleep? From what I can tell from my searches, morphine's effects wear off after about 4 hours. If it was only given at bedtime, Lizzie shouldn't have had any problems with memory or hallucinations, etc. If it was given to Lizzie during the day, I find it a strange choice as morphine is overall a painkiller. Why give a painkiller to someone who as far as we know was in no intense physical pain?
As a sleep aid, I can testify having had a morphine shot when I had kidney stones, it works very well; puts you right out. That I can definitely see whether Lizzie was guilty or no, having problems sleeping with all the excitement going on.
“Sometimes when we are generous in small, barely detectable ways it can change someone else's life forever.”-Margaret Cho comedienne
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Yooper
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According to one internet source, a recommended adult dosage for sulphate of morphine is 10-30 milligrams. 1 grain=64.8 milligrams, so 1/8 grain=8.1 milligrams, and 1/4 grain=16.2 milligrams. Body mass would be considered as part of the dosage, the 30 milligrams would likely be prescribed for a very large person. In any case, the 1/8 grain dose at 8.1 milligrams was almost 20% below the 10 milligram minimum. It was prescribed as a sedative in those days as well as a pain killer, so maybe lighter doses were prescribed for sedative purposes.
To do is to be. ~Socrates
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
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Kat
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Harry @ Thu Nov 20, 2008 8:07 am wrote:Here's a bit more confusing testimony by Lizzie at the Inquest about where Bridget was when her father came home. (p60+):
"Q. What was Maggie doing when your father came home?
A. I don't know whether she was there or whether she had gone up stairs; I can't remember.
Q. Who let your father in?
A. I think he came to the front door and rang the bell, and I think Maggie let him in, and he said he had forgotten his key; so I think she must have been down stairs."
Then on page 67+
"Q. So far as you know you were alone in the lower part of the house, a large portion of the time, after your father went away, and before he came back?
A. My father did not go away I think until somewhere about 10, as near as I can remember; he was with me down stairs.
Q. A large portion of the time after your father went away, and before he came back, so far as you know, you were alone in the house?
A. Maggie had come in and gone up stairs."
Put aside that she said he left about 10 as that is obviously wrong and she may have meant to say 9-ish. That's forgivable under the circumstances. But Bridget went upstairs before Andrew came home? Huh?
Later on page 69 she is asked:
"Q. How soon after your father came in, before Maggie went up stairs?
A. I don't know. I did not see her.
Q. Did you see her after your father came in?
A. Not after she let him in."
It is confusing testimony like this that makes me think Lizzie is making up her testimony as she goes along. Or she is indeed high on morphine.
I've wondered if this talk by Lizzie meant that Bridget did go upstairs and did not tell about that trip. Either up the front, or back. If up the front, she would see Abby dead before Andrew came home, if that guest room door was open.
It's not impossible it is the truth. It may be a slip-up on Lizzie's part, or she may not have realized what she was implying, or, then again, she may have, in her own way, been pointing a finger for Abbie's murder or knowledge of it, at Bridget. If so, she must have been frustrated that no one seemed to pick up on it.
Personally, I like this bit- it's so mysterious.
And when Lizzie says later *It has always been a mystery to me*-- Things like that sound real.
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Yooper
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The questioning about Lizzie being alone in the lower part of the house would best be answered by a simple "yes" if she thought Abby had gone out. For all she knew, she was alone in the house while Bridget was washing windows and Andrew was out. The attorney was even allowing the idea of a note through implication with the phrasing of the question. Lizzie seems to be resisting with giving a later time for Andrew's leaving and by implying Bridget went to her room earlier than previously thought. She seems to be fighting, or trying to minimize the concept that she was alone in the house, when according to her story, she indeed should have thought she was alone in the house for an extended period of time.
To do is to be. ~Socrates
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
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Yooper
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In re-reading Lizzie's Inquest testimony, another question arises. If Lizzie did not say she thought Abby had returned, then why did she prevent Bridget from looking for her at Abby's sister's house? Why did she direct or confine the search for Abby to upstairs? Lizzie certainly did not mean for Mrs. Churchill and Bridget to search in Abby's room as her testimony states, they had just been up there to get a sheet to cover Andrew.
To do is to be. ~Socrates
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
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snokkums
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That's a good point, Yooper. My own theory of that is that Lizzie knew Abby was dead. If she let Bridget go over to Abbys' sisters' house, Bridget might have figured out that Lizzie did kill Abby. Lizzie was aware of this. I think she was working the situation. She wanted Bridget as witness for her/Also, she might have been trying to protect Bridget. the less Bridget knew, the better she would be; she wouldn't be able to testify for the prosecution. If she didin't know anything she wouldn't be a good witness for the prosecution.
Suicide is painless It brings on many changes and I will take my leave when I please.
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1bigsteve
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Bob Gutowski @ Tue Nov 18, 2008 10:31 am wrote:I love the flat-footedness of that initial quote "Someone HAS COME IN and killed him." Along with 'I don't know but that SHE IS KILLED, TOO, for I thought I heard her come in" it seals Lizzie's guilt or complicity for me.
Questions not asked: "WHEN did you hear her come in?"
That is what I have been thinking for years, Bob. When Lizzie made those comments it sounded, to me, that Lizzie was quickly trying to point the spotlight away from herself and onto someone "coming from outside." If Lizzie had said, "Someone killed father" and "I don't know where Abby is" that would have been more believeable as coming from an innocent person.
Perhaps Lizzie was telling the truth when she made those comments. Maybe she knew someone had come in and that Abby was dead because she knew who the killer was and had seen Abby's body before her father's death. Maybe the only thing Lizzie didn't do was name the killer. So often killers speak the truth at a crime scene without meaning to. I guess that is why lawyers tell their clients to keep their mouths shut. Perhaps Lizzie spoke the truth before thinking, or without thinking?
-1bigsteve (o:
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DJ
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If only, if only, if only-- Lizzie had simply swooned, been carried upstairs, and not come out of her haze (however many days that took) until Mr. Jennings advised her to say nothing, on the grounds that she was so upset she would be unable to recall incidents correctly and therefore should not be allowed to testify at the Inquest.
Lizzie would have been well served to have never spoken a word on the record.
Moreover, the above reaction would have seemed more natural for a person in her circumstances.
As pointed out under this topic, she had too much to "stage manage," evidently, as per concealed evidence. She had to be up and alert in case evidence came into view. I'm inclined to believe the dress she burned was stashed in the clothes press. Lizzie was too meticulous about making sure it was locked after each search. Why not just be "sunshiney" about not having anything to hide, and leave the door unlocked?
I've said before-- I would have left the cellar door to the outside wide open, as if someone had beat a hasty exit. However, I don't think Lizzie wanted people milling around in the cellar, searching for "clews." I'm one of those who believes the handle-less hatchet that the police found there was/is THE ONE. Lizzie would have been well served to have that cellar door open, but I don't think she wanted to draw any attention to the cellar.
Lizzie would have been well served to have never spoken a word on the record.
Moreover, the above reaction would have seemed more natural for a person in her circumstances.
As pointed out under this topic, she had too much to "stage manage," evidently, as per concealed evidence. She had to be up and alert in case evidence came into view. I'm inclined to believe the dress she burned was stashed in the clothes press. Lizzie was too meticulous about making sure it was locked after each search. Why not just be "sunshiney" about not having anything to hide, and leave the door unlocked?
I've said before-- I would have left the cellar door to the outside wide open, as if someone had beat a hasty exit. However, I don't think Lizzie wanted people milling around in the cellar, searching for "clews." I'm one of those who believes the handle-less hatchet that the police found there was/is THE ONE. Lizzie would have been well served to have that cellar door open, but I don't think she wanted to draw any attention to the cellar.
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Yooper
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I agree, if Lizzie had been outside and heard something, then someone would have "gone in", not "come in". The authorities questioned her as to what she heard while outside, but she told them she heard nothing.1bigsteve @ Sat Jan 10, 2009 9:13 pm wrote:Bob Gutowski @ Tue Nov 18, 2008 10:31 am wrote:I love the flat-footedness of that initial quote "Someone HAS COME IN and killed him." Along with 'I don't know but that SHE IS KILLED, TOO, for I thought I heard her come in" it seals Lizzie's guilt or complicity for me.
Questions not asked: "WHEN did you hear her come in?"
That is what I have been thinking for years, Bob. When Lizzie made those comments it sounded, to me, that Lizzie was quickly trying to point the spotlight away from herself and onto someone "coming from outside." If Lizzie had said, "Someone killed father" and "I don't know where Abby is" that would have been more believeable as coming from an innocent person.
Perhaps Lizzie was telling the truth when she made those comments. Maybe she knew someone had come in and that Abby was dead because she knew who the killer was and had seen Abby's body before her father's death. Maybe the only thing Lizzie didn't do was name the killer. So often killers speak the truth at a crime scene without meaning to. I guess that is why lawyers tell their clients to keep their mouths shut. Perhaps Lizzie spoke the truth before thinking, or without thinking?
-1bigsteve (o:
If Lizzie thought Abby had been killed too, then she must have thought it was raining hatchets in Fall River because she thought Abby was out. She also somehow knew she would have to make the arrangements at the cemetery rather than Abby.
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SallyG
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Lizzie certainly made no effort to put herself somewhere where she could not have seen or known what was going on. She stated she was in the attic of the garage eating pears and looking out the front window, so she could have seen anyone coming or going from the house. Prior to that, she was in the house where she could have seen or heard anything that was going on. And during that time, 2 people were brutally hacked to death without her knowledge....within an hour and a half of each other. And she saw and heard NOTHING!
Bridget had the excuse of being outside or on the 3rd floor in her room, which not only makes it more likely that she saw and heard nothing, but she also had no contact with Lizzie either, so she had no idea what Lizzie might have been doing.
All the evidence points to Lizzie as the killer....she had the motive and the opportunity. And I think the one thing that could tie her to the murders, the infamous dress, was burned before it could be found by the police. She had to get rid of it somehow, and took the opportunity that morning to do it. Emma probably had a good idea of what she was doing, too. I think Emma put two and two together pretty quickly, but still did everything she could to protect Lizzie.
Bridget had the excuse of being outside or on the 3rd floor in her room, which not only makes it more likely that she saw and heard nothing, but she also had no contact with Lizzie either, so she had no idea what Lizzie might have been doing.
All the evidence points to Lizzie as the killer....she had the motive and the opportunity. And I think the one thing that could tie her to the murders, the infamous dress, was burned before it could be found by the police. She had to get rid of it somehow, and took the opportunity that morning to do it. Emma probably had a good idea of what she was doing, too. I think Emma put two and two together pretty quickly, but still did everything she could to protect Lizzie.
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Kat
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BigSteve, please see my prior posting of what Lizzie testified to on this thread on Tuesday, Nov. 18, at 2:18 pm. Her quotes are there, not what other witnesses said Lizzie said.
This is one reason why we hope to keep the quotes within real testimony, by looking it up- or giving attribution to what another said Lizzie said, and not repeating something that is not real- as it confuses the issue.
(This is not directed at you- as we all do it now and then- it's just a reminder.)
This is one reason why we hope to keep the quotes within real testimony, by looking it up- or giving attribution to what another said Lizzie said, and not repeating something that is not real- as it confuses the issue.
(This is not directed at you- as we all do it now and then- it's just a reminder.)
1bigsteve @ Sat Jan 10, 2009 9:13 pm wrote:Bob Gutowski @ Tue Nov 18, 2008 10:31 am wrote:I love the flat-footedness of that initial quote "Someone HAS COME IN and killed him." Along with 'I don't know but that SHE IS KILLED, TOO, for I thought I heard her come in" it seals Lizzie's guilt or complicity for me.
Questions not asked: "WHEN did you hear her come in?"
That is what I have been thinking for years, Bob. When Lizzie made those comments it sounded, to me, that Lizzie was quickly trying to point the spotlight away from herself and onto someone "coming from outside." If Lizzie had said, "Someone killed father" and "I don't know where Abby is" that would have been more believeable as coming from an innocent person.
Perhaps Lizzie was telling the truth when she made those comments. Maybe she knew someone had come in and that Abby was dead because she knew who the killer was and had seen Abby's body before her father's death. Maybe the only thing Lizzie didn't do was name the killer. So often killers speak the truth at a crime scene without meaning to. I guess that is why lawyers tell their clients to keep their mouths shut. Perhaps Lizzie spoke the truth before thinking, or without thinking?
-1bigsteve (o:
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Kat
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--Susan, partialIf it [morphine] was given to Lizzie during the day, I find it a strange choice as morphine is overall a painkiller. Why give a painkiller to someone who as far as we know was in no intense physical pain?
That's got me thinking, Susan:
Maybe Lizzie was injured in the attack? (If she did it). Maybe Bowen helped her to the extent that she admitted to him her injury and gave him some story that still deflected guilt away from herself and left her a victim. He might give her morphine for pain.
The bloody cloths in the bucket that Lizzie set down (possibly in the kitchen) probably wouldn't have anything to do with a wounding as that seems to have taken place after Lizzie first came down. Both Abbie and Andrrew were still alive then. (Unless Bridget is not truthful as to the timing of that.)
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Susan
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The only two injuries that I can think of would be 1) a slash caused by the hatchet, which might have required sutures later by Dr. Bowen. Lizzie could have bandaged the wound to staunch the bleeding and depending where it might be; arm, leg, etc. it would have been covered by her long sleeved blouse or by her skirts. A wound that required stitches would be painful enough to require some sort of painkiller that was stronger than aspirin. She could have told Dr. Bowen that she cut herself with those lead sheets she pulled out of the box in the barn somehow.
And 2) some sort of muscle pull, possibly in the shoulder region. If that story is true about Lizzie bringing a new hatchet to Marion to chop the firewood herself, then she knew something about using a hatchet and chopping wood. But, chopping into bone would probably be a bit different than chopping wood, probably be more like chopping into green wood that hasn't cured yet. The hatchet might bounce off of bone more, it might stick in the cracks it has made and make that horrible teeth gritting squeaking-squelching as it is pulled free. Lizzie may have pulled her shoulder out of whack from all that chopping which could be quite painful. Ah, to have been a fly on the wall that day to observe all that was said and did. So many little mysteries wrapped up into the larger one.
And 2) some sort of muscle pull, possibly in the shoulder region. If that story is true about Lizzie bringing a new hatchet to Marion to chop the firewood herself, then she knew something about using a hatchet and chopping wood. But, chopping into bone would probably be a bit different than chopping wood, probably be more like chopping into green wood that hasn't cured yet. The hatchet might bounce off of bone more, it might stick in the cracks it has made and make that horrible teeth gritting squeaking-squelching as it is pulled free. Lizzie may have pulled her shoulder out of whack from all that chopping which could be quite painful. Ah, to have been a fly on the wall that day to observe all that was said and did. So many little mysteries wrapped up into the larger one.
“Sometimes when we are generous in small, barely detectable ways it can change someone else's life forever.”-Margaret Cho comedienne
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Kat
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You're so good at theorizing further!
A muscle strain is a good one!
I think Dr. Bowen would have believed whatever Lizzie told him.
Maybe she was hurt.
The thing I keep remembering is that they say, when a person kills with a knife they usually have cut marks themselves. One stabbing where the blade is left in the first wound, excepted, of course.
What are the odds that a person hatcheting 29 times would not get hurt somehow?
A muscle strain is a good one!
I think Dr. Bowen would have believed whatever Lizzie told him.
Maybe she was hurt.
The thing I keep remembering is that they say, when a person kills with a knife they usually have cut marks themselves. One stabbing where the blade is left in the first wound, excepted, of course.
What are the odds that a person hatcheting 29 times would not get hurt somehow?
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Susan
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Yes, I think at the very least there would be some muscle strain after that many whacks. Another thought occurred to me, there were no defense wounds on the victims, but, could there have been any on Lizzie anywhere? Could Andrew or Abby have fought back? Maybe gave Lizzie a good whack back with something; a book, a broom handle, whatever was handy at the moment? Severe bruising somewhere beneath her clothing, perhaps bruised ribs, those really hurt. If only they had given Lizzie a thorough physical exam, something may have come to light.
“Sometimes when we are generous in small, barely detectable ways it can change someone else's life forever.”-Margaret Cho comedienne