Thanks for the reply!
I've always thought that the windows and Bridget's nap were a big part of this mystery,
Do you know 1) what time Andrew Borden expected lunch; 2) what was a typical lunch for them (for instance, cooked or sandwiches); and 3) did Bridget often nap right before lunch?
In addition, why didn't Bridget hang the cleaning cloths outside where they would have dried faster?
Evidence
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Kat
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I have the 1892 City Directory. Unfortunately my disc is not working well on this ancient laptop.
I did verify a few addresses of the banks in discussion.
The ads I could not get at tho. More info might be there pages 739 for Citizens Savings, 741 for First Nat'l and 742 for Nat'l Union and Union Savings.
Note:
I did not find yet a B.M.C. Durfee Safe Deposit & Trust in the section that lists "Banks." I did not have a chance to look for it in the regular listing of names. The disc froze up.
Note:
There was a "Citizens Savings" but not a "Citizens Union" as Shelley called it. Mayhap that misnomer caused the confusion. However, that bank was not with the Union Savings, again, as Shelley postulated.*
Diana is correct that the National Union and the Union Savings were at the same address: No. 3 Market Square and Main Street- unless "Main and corner Bedford" is the same as No.3 Market Square and Main?*
In Rebello, page 279 he lists Andrew's assests and there are deposits at a "Citizens Savings."
In the Directory it is at Main, corner Bedford.
First Nat'l is listed at 58 North Main and corner West Bank.
I would liked to have completed the search by looking at the ads but cannot right now. Maybe someone with the 1892 Directory can?
I did verify a few addresses of the banks in discussion.
The ads I could not get at tho. More info might be there pages 739 for Citizens Savings, 741 for First Nat'l and 742 for Nat'l Union and Union Savings.
Note:
I did not find yet a B.M.C. Durfee Safe Deposit & Trust in the section that lists "Banks." I did not have a chance to look for it in the regular listing of names. The disc froze up.
Note:
There was a "Citizens Savings" but not a "Citizens Union" as Shelley called it. Mayhap that misnomer caused the confusion. However, that bank was not with the Union Savings, again, as Shelley postulated.*
Diana is correct that the National Union and the Union Savings were at the same address: No. 3 Market Square and Main Street- unless "Main and corner Bedford" is the same as No.3 Market Square and Main?*
In Rebello, page 279 he lists Andrew's assests and there are deposits at a "Citizens Savings."
In the Directory it is at Main, corner Bedford.
First Nat'l is listed at 58 North Main and corner West Bank.
I would liked to have completed the search by looking at the ads but cannot right now. Maybe someone with the 1892 Directory can?
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Kat
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Okay Dokay,
In Rebello Appendix E, page 565, and illustration page 566, he has 3 banks noted.
See #4 & #5- he has titled as Union Savings Bank and National Bank at 3 Market Square. He does not call it The National Union Bank.
The National Bank looks here to be on the corner of Bedford at Main Street.
The First National Bank [#6 ] is here showing at 58 North Main.
In a "note" on page 567, Rebello has this:
Union Savings Bank and The Fall River National Bank were both in the same building. B.M.C. Durfee Safe & Trust Company were in the same room as the First National Bank."
--[Which is located at #6 on the map- 58 North Main Street.]
A while ago, Len had given Harry and myself permission to post graphics from his book with Courtesy given.
This is a partial look at the page.
In Rebello Appendix E, page 565, and illustration page 566, he has 3 banks noted.
See #4 & #5- he has titled as Union Savings Bank and National Bank at 3 Market Square. He does not call it The National Union Bank.
The National Bank looks here to be on the corner of Bedford at Main Street.
The First National Bank [#6 ] is here showing at 58 North Main.
In a "note" on page 567, Rebello has this:
Union Savings Bank and The Fall River National Bank were both in the same building. B.M.C. Durfee Safe & Trust Company were in the same room as the First National Bank."
--[Which is located at #6 on the map- 58 North Main Street.]
A while ago, Len had given Harry and myself permission to post graphics from his book with Courtesy given.
This is a partial look at the page.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
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Kat
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I was wondering the same thing.
Maybe it was a Senior Citizen Discount, for those who are retired and reading old ads in the old directory?
Maybe it means, since the National Union Bank advertises they solicit new business, that if one opens an account at close of day on Friday (2 pm), the cost (or whatever terms there are) is discounted because the bank gets to use the money over the weekend to bolster its accounting books and not have to show the money as accessible until Monday? It's the 2 pm Friday that is special somehow.
~ ~ ~
Harry, do you figure that *3 Market Square* is the same location as *Main and corner Bedford*?
Maybe it was a Senior Citizen Discount, for those who are retired and reading old ads in the old directory?
Maybe it means, since the National Union Bank advertises they solicit new business, that if one opens an account at close of day on Friday (2 pm), the cost (or whatever terms there are) is discounted because the bank gets to use the money over the weekend to bolster its accounting books and not have to show the money as accessible until Monday? It's the 2 pm Friday that is special somehow.
~ ~ ~
Harry, do you figure that *3 Market Square* is the same location as *Main and corner Bedford*?
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Yooper
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My understanding of a bank discount is the difference between the face value of something (a loan or a note) and the amount paid by the bank for it. A loan can be made by deducting the interest at the time a loan is made, say $100.00 discounted 5%=$95.00 actually loaned by the bank. The borrower pays back $100.00 over the course of the loan. The same would hold for a note, $100.00 face value minus a percentage= the amount the bank will pay to the bearer. I don't know how that applies to the advertisements, however. It could mean something entirely different.
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To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
To be is to do. ~Kant
Do be do be do. ~Sinatra
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Harry
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From what I understand Market Square was the street between City Hall and the bank building marked #4 on the map you posted. It could very well be 3 Market Square at the corner of Main and Bedford depending where the door to the bank was.
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And fool enough to think that's what I'll find
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Harry
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Thanks, Yooper. That's sounds like a reasonable answer.Yooper @ Sun Mar 01, 2009 11:29 pm wrote:My understanding of a bank discount is the difference between the face value of something (a loan or a note) and the amount paid by the bank for it. A loan can be made by deducting the interest at the time a loan is made, say $100.00 discounted 5%=$95.00 actually loaned by the bank. The borrower pays back $100.00 over the course of the loan. The same would hold for a note, $100.00 face value minus a percentage= the amount the bank will pay to the bearer. I don't know how that applies to the advertisements, however. It could mean something entirely different.
I know I ask perfection of a quite imperfect world
And fool enough to think that's what I'll find
And fool enough to think that's what I'll find
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Kat
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Whew! You have been patient with our getting the bank thing somewhat settled! Thanks!goddessoftheclassroom @ Fri Feb 27, 2009 8:59 pm wrote:Thanks for the reply!
I've always thought that the windows and Bridget's nap were a big part of this mystery,
Do you know 1) what time Andrew Borden expected lunch; 2) what was a typical lunch for them (for instance, cooked or sandwiches); and 3) did Bridget often nap right before lunch?
In addition, why didn't Bridget hang the cleaning cloths outside where they would have dried faster?
1) I think most menfolk in Fall River expected *dinner* around 12 noon. We can figure that by what time witnesses testified as to when they stopped work or by figuring what time the ladies we knew went running to the store to get some fresh groceries expecting to feed people at home.
Does anyone have any testimony to offer?
2)I had not heard of sandwiches in the Borden home. Maybe with a cook they expected real food?
3) I think we figured Bridget did lie down when she had a chance. I believe she said so? Anyone have her statement about that?
As for the cleaning cloths, since Bridget stored them to dry behind the stove (trial 238), I figured they would dry sooner there rather than outside.
Do you have any comments to this response? Was it what you were looking for or do you want sources or anything?
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DJ
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GotC, I think it's important to bear in mind, too, the extenuating circumstance of Abby's allegedly being out on a call to a sick friend, courtesy of Lizzie's info. Everything in the Borden household, around 11 that a.m., seems to have been on hold till her return and her directives re dinner.
Also, is Uncle John returning for the noontime repast?
Questions were hanging in the air, and Bridget and Andrew chose to nap on them.
Also, is Uncle John returning for the noontime repast?
Questions were hanging in the air, and Bridget and Andrew chose to nap on them.
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DJ
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Apologies for the double-post, but, returning to the issue of the naps around 11 a.m. and the prep of dinner: From reading the testimony of others (ladies of the neighborhood), it was not unusual for them to go to market around 11 a.m., and put the dinner on around 11:30, depending on whether the meat was being cooked fresh or warmed over, so that the meal could be on the table at noon, or shortly thereafter.
It's my understanding from testimony that Bridget was planning to heat up the dreaded mutton broth and throw in some potatoes, plus there would have been more of the omnipresent pears, plus bananas and apples. In that day and time, and on into the next century, it was not unusual to offer an enormous breakfast, with the noon meal basically being more of the same.
Anyway, to address GotC's question, it wouldn't have been unusual for Bridget to be taking a rest until about 11:30, especially with Abby's whereabouts and the time of her return in question.
Furthermore, it's my understanding that Bridget had Thursday afternoon off, along with all day Sunday, although her afternoon no doubt began after the family-- and she-- had had the noon meal.
If the windows were to have been washed on Thursday, which was the day that Bridget normally did so, they would have to be washed in the a.m.
It would have been highly within the ordinary for Bridget to have been washing windows the day of the murders-- something Lizzie was probably counting on.
What confounds the question of dinner that day is Lizzie's testimony about Abby allegedly asking her, before Abby's alleged departure, about what type of meat Lizzie would like for dinner.
I would think, however, if Abby had been going shopping (along with her call on the alleged sick friend), she would not have asked Lizzie such a question. I believe the question was a fabrication by Lizzie in order to demonstrate her supposedly "cordial" relationship with her stepmother, to Mr. Knowlton and others at the Inquest.
Indeed, Abby would have shopped within her budget and by what looked decent at market. If anything, she would have asked Andrew for his preference.
Anyway, I don't read anything into Bridget's window-washing or nap that a.m., for above-stated reasons.
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Kat, thanks for all the posts on Andrew's bank visits that a.m.!
It's my understanding from testimony that Bridget was planning to heat up the dreaded mutton broth and throw in some potatoes, plus there would have been more of the omnipresent pears, plus bananas and apples. In that day and time, and on into the next century, it was not unusual to offer an enormous breakfast, with the noon meal basically being more of the same.
Anyway, to address GotC's question, it wouldn't have been unusual for Bridget to be taking a rest until about 11:30, especially with Abby's whereabouts and the time of her return in question.
Furthermore, it's my understanding that Bridget had Thursday afternoon off, along with all day Sunday, although her afternoon no doubt began after the family-- and she-- had had the noon meal.
If the windows were to have been washed on Thursday, which was the day that Bridget normally did so, they would have to be washed in the a.m.
It would have been highly within the ordinary for Bridget to have been washing windows the day of the murders-- something Lizzie was probably counting on.
What confounds the question of dinner that day is Lizzie's testimony about Abby allegedly asking her, before Abby's alleged departure, about what type of meat Lizzie would like for dinner.
I would think, however, if Abby had been going shopping (along with her call on the alleged sick friend), she would not have asked Lizzie such a question. I believe the question was a fabrication by Lizzie in order to demonstrate her supposedly "cordial" relationship with her stepmother, to Mr. Knowlton and others at the Inquest.
Indeed, Abby would have shopped within her budget and by what looked decent at market. If anything, she would have asked Andrew for his preference.
Anyway, I don't read anything into Bridget's window-washing or nap that a.m., for above-stated reasons.
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Kat, thanks for all the posts on Andrew's bank visits that a.m.!
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goddessoftheclassroom
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Thank you all for your explanations!
Kat, if we entertain the possibility that Lizzie was telling the truth, I see Abby's asking her about what kind of meat as Abby meeting her half way after Lizzie's showing some thawing by joining them at breakfast.
OK, next question: I know Emma said she and Lizzie usually looked after the guest room, but I wonder why Abby didn't ask Bridget to do it and save the windows for the next day. I've wondered whether Uncle John didn't come back for something he'd "forgotten" and Abby went up to help him search for it...
I MUST ready the primary sources, but I so enjoy discussing the case with y'all who are so well-informed.
Kat, if we entertain the possibility that Lizzie was telling the truth, I see Abby's asking her about what kind of meat as Abby meeting her half way after Lizzie's showing some thawing by joining them at breakfast.
OK, next question: I know Emma said she and Lizzie usually looked after the guest room, but I wonder why Abby didn't ask Bridget to do it and save the windows for the next day. I've wondered whether Uncle John didn't come back for something he'd "forgotten" and Abby went up to help him search for it...
I MUST ready the primary sources, but I so enjoy discussing the case with y'all who are so well-informed.
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Shelley
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Abby kept her things in the bureau drawers of the guest room as well as her sewing basket and sewing machine. Emma and Lizzie used it as sort of a parlor to visit with friends when they came over and they wanted privacy from Bridget and Abby upstairs. I suspect it is because of these reasons, Bridget was not responsible for any room on the second floor.
I liked Bridget's initial testimony about "going upstair to fix my room" given on the day of the murders. Eventually she qualifies that to include lying down on the bed for a rest. Sounds as if she did not want to be thought lazy for going to bed at 11 a.m. when she ought to have been working for her employer.
I liked Bridget's initial testimony about "going upstair to fix my room" given on the day of the murders. Eventually she qualifies that to include lying down on the bed for a rest. Sounds as if she did not want to be thought lazy for going to bed at 11 a.m. when she ought to have been working for her employer.