How Many People Were There?

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 6:58 pm

Has anyone ever come up with a list and a number of how many people were in the Borden house Thursday, August 4, after Andrew was found? It seems like every now and then I read of someone different.

1. Dr. Dolan
2. Dr. Coughlin
3. Dr. Dedrick
4. Dr. Leary
5. Dr. Gunning
6. Dr. Dutra
7. Dr. Tourtellot
8. Dr. Peckham
9. Dr. Bowen

(Numbers 2 - 9 are given in 'The Lizzie Borden Sourcebook', page 8, that says these doctors "assisted" in the partial autopsy in the house.)

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 9:27 am

10. Mrs. Churchill
11. Alice Russell
12. Mrs. Dr. Bowen

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 10:09 am

Not to make light of the question but it seems about half of Fall River.

Add lots of policemen, newspaper men Stevens and Manning, Pettee, Sawyer, Walsh.

xyjw · Post by **xyjw** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 11:48 am

I guess it also includes Bridget.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:05 pm

Add Mrs. Holmes. She said she went there about 1pm accompanied by Dr. Bowen.

Emma arrived later in the afternoon.

Tina-Kate · Post by **Tina-Kate** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:08 pm

Yikes!

Allen, Mullaly, Wixon, Harrington, Doherty, Fleet, Medley, Gillan, Wilson, Donnelly, Chase, JVM, Geo Pettee (or Petty?), Rev. Buck, photographer Walsh, Mrs. Holmes...

(Great minds think alike, Harry!)

mbhenty · Post by **mbhenty** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 1:51 pm

Yes, I would need to research the answer myself but, was the autopsy held the day of the murders?

Always suspicious of what some author wrote, I pulled out the Source Book to see what was written about the presence of the doctors at the Borden place. It appears that it was reported in the fall river Herald. Though newspaper reporters are at times notoriously shaky with the facts, I suppose we can safely accept...............,no, let me rephrase that........., "YOU" can safely accept that as the truth.

..............................................................................................................

But, while the Source Book lay in my lap I thumbed thru-it and came to this illustration which caused me to chuckle.

Still not sure what it is all about. This was an advertisement in a fall river News Paper circa 1890s. Some sort of entertainment. Notice, only men in the audience.

It announces "5 Champion Lady Sprinters, In a Grand International Sprinting Contest."

Running in your underware? Precursor to strip club entertainment?

Who said fall river was not ahead of it's time?

Tina-Kate · Post by **Tina-Kate** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 2:16 pm

I think that's one of Harry's favorite ads!

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 4:11 pm

Oh yeah! Pretty risque for 1892.

I would assume they "ran" for a specific period of time and the meter behind them measured how far they ran.

$2 on number 2.

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 5:38 pm

I think the man standing third from the left looks a bit like Andrew Borden....

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 8:43 am

It's hard to believe they actually had a show like that. God, you guys are funny. Harry and his bet.

11. Allen 12. Mullaly 13. Wixom 14. Harrington 15. Doherty 16. Fleet

17. Medley 16. Gillan 17. Wilson 16. Donnelly 17. Chase 18.Pettee/Petty

19. Rev. Buck 20. Mrs. Holmes 21. James Walsh 22.Stevens

23. Manning 24. Sawyer

(I did not intend to count the family.)

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 9:21 am

Don't forget the City Marshal. He came rather late to the party, about 3 in the afternoon. What was more important I can't imagine.

Allen · Post by **Allen** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 12:40 am

Hiram Harrington, although I think he had his "long talk with Lizzie" at the door?

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 5:31 pm

Did we mention Mr. Winward and his assistant- and Uncle John of course.

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:18 pm

25. Hilliard

Allen, I can check to see if Hiram Harrington went into the house. It seems to me that he did, because he gave the press that interview of his long talk with Lizzie.

26. Winward
27. Assistant to Winward

Thanks, Shelley. I was not counting the family (Lizzie, Emma, Bridget, Andrew, Abby or Privy Morse).

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 6:05 pm

Well, there seems to be no definite answer whether Hiram Harrington had his talk with Lizzie at the door or if it took place in the house. But it was on Thursday, August 4th.

From The Witness Statements, page 11, Harrington says: "I had a long talk with Lizzie yesterday, Thursday, the day of the murder..."

When Andrew was lving, Hiram Harrington would not go into the house. I don't see why he would refuse to go inside after he was dead, and I would not think Lizzie would expose herself to the public by talking to him so long outside of the door. So, I'll take a stab at it and list him.

28. Hiram Harrington
Opposing views most welcome.

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 6:30 pm

Uncle Hiram allegedly had a long interview with Lizzie the day of the murder. Kent, in his book, casts doubts that he did and had this to say:

"... On the day after the murders, Hiram spoke freely with reporters, and he patently enjoyed the limelight. He aired his version of what had happened at Andrew's house and left little doubt that he thought Lizzie was the villain.
Implying an intimacy with Lizzie that he certainly never had, Harrington told how he had had a long "interview" with her, another fabrication. A reporter who had been present when Harrington came to the Borden house said he had been inside exactly three minutes. "Mr. Harrington is embittered against the family," he told his editor, 'and does not hesitate to make startling statements."

doug65oh · Post by **doug65oh** » Fri Mar 27, 2009 7:32 pm

Chalk it up to faulty memory or what have you, but I’d almost swear reading somewhere that Hiram Harrington made at least two visits to Second Street on the 4th … The first was rather early, within an hour or so of the first word getting out about the murders. (One would suppose he heard it and decided to go up and see for himself that the old *expletive deleted* was really and truly dead.) Whomever the witness was said Hiram was seen headed away from the house, presumably en route to his own home to inform Lurana.

(I thought the source for that initial visit to be Porter, but it’s apparently not – although the old feller does run on for nearly two pages in Porter’s book, starting at pg. 24.)

As for the "long interview"... I don't believe it ever happened. I think he tried, but was given the old heave ho right quick.

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Sun Mar 29, 2009 12:59 pm

I've always had doubts about Hiram Harrington going in and talking that long with Lizzie too.

Well, he was at least in there 3 minutes then. Thanks, Harry.

That does ring true, Dougoh65, that they threw him out. And Harrington going over there to see if Andrew were "really most sincerely dead" sounds true as well. But he need not have gone inside to learn if it was true. He could have gotten that info from the people outside.

Still, he could have used his pull of being a close relative of Andrew's to get in if he went in that first time. It'd be great to find the source for that, and hopefully one of us will run into it some time. Dougoh's memory is incredible, tho. I would put my money on him.