Hello from a New Member

NancyC · Post by **NancyC** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 8:39 pm

Hi Everyone,

I am very excited to join the forum! For my birthday last week, I visited the Lizzie Borden house - what better way to celebrate? And only two days before Lizzie's b'day... fellow Cancerian! I went for a daytime tour (totally bummed to find out that the night tours are longer), but I hope to visit soon for an overnight and stay in the Morse room. Having grown up in western Mass I always knew of the story and remember the LB rhyme from when I was a kid and always wanted to visit the house. So the short tour was at least a big step in learning more about it. I had a chance to read a short book about it before going and at the gift shop met Lee-Ann who told me about this website and forum. I have since read the autopsy reports, Lizzie's inquest testimony and some of the trial testimony. It is so fascinating!

Now, I have several questions. I have read back through several pages of the forum and didn't see these topics addressed, so I thought I'd ask.

1. I also visited Oak Grove Cemetery last week and saw the Borden headstone. I know she changed her name to Lizbeth after the trial, but did she change her middle name as well by adding an "s" to Andrew, because it says Andrews on the stone?

2. After reading the autopsy on Abby Borden, it sounds like every wound was on the back side of her head. Yet on the tour, the guide mentioned one wound near the face as if she tried to turn and face her attacker. I also read in this forum that it is widely agreed upon that she was facing her attacker because of one wound on the forehead. So I am confused as to which is correct.

3. This one is not so much a question, but after visiting the house it's my own little theory. Going by what I had read in the autopsy report, I could not see how Abby would have been attacked by a stranger in that room if truly all the blows were to the back of her head. The door into the room is toward the front half of the room on the opposite the side of the bed Abby was found on. From where she was positioned, she would have had a clear view of the doorway and of the staircase going down to the front entry of the house. Surely, she would have had to see someone either coming up the stairs, entering the room, or walking all the way around the bed toward her. If she saw her attacker, wouldn't the natural response be to turn and face them in an attempt to block their blows?

Also, based on the way she was positioned, she was either already on her knees or fell to her knees and then just fell forward. Again, why would she be on her knees fixing the bed if a stranger was coming into the room? And if she were running from an attacker, I find it hard to believe she would fall straight down. I would imagine she'd be more splayed out had she been in motion as she fell.

This leads me to believe that her killer was in the room with her before the attack... and it was someone she was comfortable enough with to turn her back on while she worked.

After reading the book on the murders, I felt there was just no evidence against Lizzie, it was so circumstantial it seemed crazy. But the more I've read since and after visiting the house, I definitely think it's possible it was her.

4. Lastly, on display in the giftshop at the house were items found in the barn privy. Wasn't there also a privy in the basement? Was this one dug out as well? I've seen a video on You Tube about bottle digging in old outhouses and those things were pretty deep! At least 10 feet. It would have been a great spot to dump the murder weapon. Who would want to dig through that at the time? Now it's just plain old dirt.

Thanks for reading! I look forward to reading your replies.

Nancy

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 9:11 pm

Welcome Nancy! Sorry I missed meeting you by one day. Lots of questions- all of which have been answered in the threads here on the board-some in great detail.. It will take you a long time to read all the good comments here.

Yes, I believe most here would agree that Abby knew the person in the room with her. The bed was not in disarray, she had no defense wounds on her body, -apparently she was not alarmed. All points to an inside job. The first wound falls over her left ear with the hinge of the wound in the back meaning the slice came from the front. My theory has always been that the killer either pushed her down, or she may have stumbled or staggered down before being pinned. I can make a case for the killer sitting on her back, grasping her hair (thus explaining how a large wedge of Abby's real hair was cut off and ends up on the bed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nW-mwDP8 ... PL&index=4
The privy was in the barn -Andrew and Abby seemed to like to use it- and yes, the privy vault was searched. There was a pull-chain toilet in the cellar (you can still see where the walls were. Emma and Lizzie preferred that one. It is my understanding that Lizzie did not legally or formally change her name to Lizbeth with the usual legal documentation- just sort of did it on her own.

NancyC · Post by **NancyC** » Sat Jul 25, 2009 9:28 pm

Hi Shelley, Thanks for that link... that was you, right? That helped explain a lot. I'm sorry I missed you at the house too! Clearly, you would have given an amazing tour. I will be back for sure, maybe in the fall.

DJ · Post by DJ » Sun Jul 26, 2009 3:24 pm

Hey, NancyC!
Abby HAD to die in that room, if Lizzie were the murderer. Otherwise, Mr. Borden could have returned at any moment, Bridget could have come in for some reason, or someone else could have dropped by *before* Lizzie had cleaned up herownself.
Now, if Lizzie had planned in advance on taking out both Mr. and Mrs. B, then Mrs. B REALLY HAD to die in that room, so her corpse would be out of view.
Also, too-- making footfall on those stairs would have taken away the element of surprise for any "outside" murderer. Abby knew someone was coming, and surely looked over to see who it was. If it were a stranger, particularly a stranger with a hatchet in view, she would have screamed, at least, and probably would have made telltale signs of defense.
If someone had been attempting to burgle the upstairs, why hang around to administer so many blows, when one or two would have killed her? And why hang around to kill Mr. B, without even stealing his wallet, much less anything else in the house?
Another question of logic: Why is Lizzie spared? (And Bridget, too, for that matter?) If "Father has an enemy," and the enemy's about killing two people, what's two more?

NancyC · Post by **NancyC** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 3:35 pm

Hi DJ, Yes, I would agree that she saw and knew her killer. And you're right, I hadn't thought about it much, but that would have been the only room except for Lizzie's or Emma's where Abby would have been kept out of sight. If Lizzie were the murderer, I wonder how long she planned it... waiting for the right moment. A lot had to fall into place - her sister out of town, Bridget outside washing windows and then going off to her room for a nap... it's a miracle anyone could have pulled it off. The timing was impeccable. Could she have been just waiting for the time to be right and when everything fell into place that day she jumped on it?

I am currently reading some old posts from 2006 where Shelley was considering doing a re-enactment involving every character related to the events - did that ever happen? That would be amazing to see.

Nancy

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 3:44 pm

Oh- we are getting closer to seeing that realized. We now have a cast of 13 for this August 4th. Everyone is really studying their historic person in the case and we have a good time line to work with. I think we will have to do it in the off season though- in August there is just too much traffic in and out of the house and it would really throw the timing off. January would be GREAT.

Yes, I agree about the room comments- downstairs would be far too risky of possible incoming traffic (John, Andrew, Bridget, maybe a nosey neighbor listening or looking at just the right moment). Bridget said she had no business ever on the second floor. Lizzie locked her room and her dress closet. The Borden's room was right under Bridget's and may have been risky for the killer, The key to it was right on the mantel- but then, how would an outsider KNOW that and it had to look like an outsider. The cellar might have been the only other place- but that too was risky as Bridget might go down there. If she had an accomplice though, the cellar was a good place for concealment all morning.

NancyC · Post by **NancyC** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 3:48 pm

Shelley, what events are happening on August 4th? I want to return for a longer tour and was considering then or the paranormal weekend. Do you recommend one over the other?

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 3:55 pm

Every year on the fourth , since the B&B opened, there have been re-enactments of the events of the fourth. There is a new script every year. I have done the script in '98,99,00,01,02,03,05,06,07,-08,09. They start on the hour. The house itself is booked full on the 3rd and 4th-generally it fills nearly a year ahead for these dates and Halloween.
Here is last year and our house acting troupe

http://pearessentialproductions.wordpress.com/

I am the wrong one to ask about paranormal stuff- as I am not much of a believer in such stuff. But I do not spoil it for those who love it.

The last Haunted University weekend cancelled on June 26th weekend. So if you ask me- come on the 4th! Or if you want a leisurely weekend to have a good poke around all things Lizzie, come in September and stay over Friday and Sat. nights. Sat. night there is usually a seance-I only work on friday nights and usually do a neighborhood tour, Oak Grove, and a city tour if you want one.

NancyC · Post by **NancyC** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 4:00 pm

I don't really believe in the paranormal either - although I would love to experience some sort of ghostly presence in the house. I may shoot for a Friday night in September as I run my own business (a Halloween retail website) and we're busy ramping up for the season so taking a weekday off is a little tough. Thanks for the info - see you in September! I will check with you before booking a room to be sure you'll be there.

DJ · Post by DJ » Sun Jul 26, 2009 4:32 pm

Just to clarify a bit, NancyC-- Abby would not have entered Lizzie's or Emma's rooms under any normal circumstance. Nor would Lizzie have entered Mr. and Mrs. B's bedroom (with the key missing prominently from the sitting-room mantel, as Shelley notes). If Abby happened to be in her bedroom with the door unlocked, and Lizzie appeared, that would have raised all sorts of alarm bells in Abby.
Also, Abby would have heard the footfall on the back steps. Also, Mr. B would have likely encountered his wife's body whenever he returned, which could have been too soon to suit Lizzie (no time to clean up; no chance to take care of him).
Bridget's room would have been way out of bounds for both Mrs. B and Lizzie.
So:
(1) Mr. and Mrs. B's bedroom is out, for several reasons, most notably that he is just as likely to go up there upon his return as anywhere downstairs.
(2) Bridget's room is way out.
(3) Lizzie's and Emma's rooms are "personal space," off limits to Mrs. Borden. Also, for Lizzie, it would have looked bad if Mrs. B died in Lizzie's bedroom, or the small room directly off of it.
(4) As Shelley points out, Bridget could have gone down cellar for any number of reasons, and thus discovered Mrs. B's body. Whereas, Bridget never went up the front stairs, under normal circumstances. The only ones who did were Mrs. B, Lizzie, and Emma, as revealed in testimony (or a visitor in the guest bedroom).
So-- that leaves the guest room as the one best suited to Lizzie's needs. In any other room, Mrs. B's body could have been discovered too soon to accommodate Lizzie-as-murderer.

NancyC · Post by **NancyC** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 4:42 pm

I agree completely. I see that none of the other rooms make sense, my point about Lizzie's and Emma's rooms were that they were the only two other rooms in the house that neither Mr. Borden or Bridget would have entered, so the body could have been hidden there. But you're right that finding the body in Lizzie's room would have been a "dead" giveaway. Sorry, couldn't resist.

kssunflower · Post by **kssunflower** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 5:10 pm

Welcome to the forum, NancyC. You brought up some good questions. I've always thought that Lizzie's middle name was interesting. I wonder how common it was then for a daughter's middle name to be masculine after the father. And on which stone is it listed as Andrews?

DJ, I should let sleeping dogs lie, but I too believe Uncle John's visit played some part in the murders.

NancyC · Post by **NancyC** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 8:37 pm

Hi Sunflower,

Her middle name as Andrews appears on the large family tombstone - here's a picture I took of it.

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Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 11:48 pm

Hi Nancy!
May I ask to which book do you refer when you said you read a book on the murders?

Here is the trial info on Abbie's wound - the *Flap Wound*- it is Dr. Dolan testifying~ Abbie would have been standing and facing her attacker, for the first blow:

Page 923

Q. There was a flap cut here? (Indicating on forehead)
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Cut so it came forward like that (I am pointing to the right, because that is before the Jury, but really on the left side of the head)?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. And it was cut from the front towards the rear?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. With the hinge on the back part of the cut so that it would lift up in this way, as on a hinge?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. When that blow was given, where in your opinion, did the assailant stand?
A. In front, facing the assaulted.

Q. That is, the assailant and assaulted faced each other?
A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did you entertain the opinion that the bruises and contusions found on the forehead of Mrs. Borden were caused in any other way than by falling?
A. No, sir.

Q. They were probably and could adequately have been so caused?
A. Yes, sir.

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sun Jul 26, 2009 11:53 pm

Abbie's facial wounds were contusions- The flap wound was described as on the forehead.

Here is a diagram of the possible marks found on Abbie's face, excluding her scalp *flap* wound, with source and testimony:

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Jul 27, 2009 12:13 am

I don't think we've come to any consensus or conclusion as to why there is that *s* after Lizzie's middle name.

Harry found this a while ago, in Jan. 2002: One would think these burial instructions would have been followed- but don't know if *Andrew/Andrews* is even written on here- I'm bad at reading odd handwriting.

http://www.handwriting.org/images/samples/lborden.htm

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Mon Jul 27, 2009 12:16 am

Hey DJ: you make it sound like a rein of terror!

If Abby happened to be in her bedroom with the door unlocked, and Lizzie appeared, that would have raised all sorts of alarm bells in Abby.

We don't know if Abbie feared Lizzie.
(PS: She was acquitted, let's remember...)

NancyC · Post by **NancyC** » Mon Jul 27, 2009 7:54 am

Thank you Kat for the testimony. I haven't yet read Dr. Dolan's. The book I read was "Lizzie Borden" by Chaney.

The handwritten note is tough to make out, at least where she wrote her name. It helped me a bit to darken up the image, but not enough in that section. Maybe whoever had to follow the note had the same trouble!

Harry · Post by **Harry** » Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:09 am

Hello NancyC, welcome aboard!

Yes, the handwritten note is hard to read in spots. Here is my interpretation:

"My funeral to be strictly private with a short prayer at the grave.
At the house I wish read “The Crossing of the Bar”. Also the 14th
chapter of St. John and the 23rd Psalm.
Also sung the first and fourth verses of “My Ain Countrie”.
I wish to be laid at my father’s feet.
A small head stone to match the others of my family.
Lizbeth [underlined twice] to be cut on the stone.
Lizbeth Andrews [or Andrew] with the date July 1860.
The minister of the Church of the Ascension is to conduct the services.
Grave to be bricked.

Signed/ Lizbeth A. Borden
March 31, 1919 Fall River"

Comments in brackets are mine. The note was written some 8 years before her death.

I did contact the handwriting expert who had the document but he never finished the discussion about its authenticity. I seem to remember him saying the document was on colored paper. But my memory is not that clear on this point. Not that it's important.

BTW, the web site where I found it is still running:

http://www.handwriting.org/main/hwasmpD1.htm

kssunflower · Post by **kssunflower** » Mon Jul 27, 2009 3:23 pm

Thanks for posting that photo, NancyC. I didn't notice the spelling before. So perhaps it's Andrews because the note was somewhat illegible? That's interesting.

DJ · Post by DJ » Mon Jul 27, 2009 3:28 pm

Kat-- I'll tone it down: "Abby would have found it most unusual for Lizzie to have entered Mr. and Mrs. Borden's bedroom, unannounced."

Kssunflower-- Uncle John's presence certainly contributes to the complexity of this mystery. I'll not resurrect that discussion anytime soon. The camps are too polarized. I don't think he committed the murders, but I do believe he was not forthcoming with everything he knew pertaining to the case.

cfking · Post by **cfking** » Mon Jul 27, 2009 6:15 pm

I am a new member too! I indeed enjoy to no end reading all of your posts!!
Here's a little input from me now:
I have always believed that perhaps, just perhaps Lizzie was innocent, but I recently made my first pilgrimage to Fall River & The House-and can honestly say that after being inside-I cannot imagine in any way possible that Lizzie could not have known what was going on. She may not have been the one to swing the hatchet-but she had to know who did!!

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Mon Jul 27, 2009 6:16 pm

I wonder just how much John did know about the sisters and Abby. Apparently not too much about Lizzie personally. Emma says she wrote a few times a year. It is hard to know just how much Andrew confided in him about his family problems.
John hits me as a man not too savvy about the ladies. I agree he probably did see plenty in the days following the murder and probably had some of his own conclusions.

SallyG · Post by **SallyG** » Mon Jul 27, 2009 6:45 pm

DJ @ Mon Jul 27, 2009 2:28 pm wrote:Kat-- I'll tone it down: "Abby would have found it most unusual for Lizzie to have entered Mr. and Mrs. Borden's bedroom, unannounced."

Do we really know that it would have been that unusual for Lizzie to have entered Abby's room if Abby was in there? Abby had been with Lizzie since she was a small child, so I question if she actually feared Lizzie at all. They may not have been on the best of terms, but I doubt Abby EVER entertained the thought that she was in any real danger from Lizzie. That is probably how Lizzie was able to attack Abby with the hatchet..because Abby was NOT fearful of Lizzie.

Shelley · Post by **Shelley** » Mon Jul 27, 2009 8:22 pm

I doubt Lizzie made cozy visits up to Abby's room to chat with her stepmother -and I expect Abby might have been surprised if she suddenly did so. If Abby had been in her room, the door most likely would have been open or unlocked while Abby was in it, but I would not think Abby would have been frightened had Lizzie suddenly appeared-maybe more AWARE. In the guest room, Abby would have given far less thought to Lizzie's presence. Yes, it was the perfect spot for a killing, given the dynamics in that house.

Nadzieja · Post by **Nadzieja** » Tue Jul 28, 2009 7:13 am

A big welcome to NanceC & cfking!!!

I'm sure you will enjoy the forum, there is a wealth of information through this whole site. You can't find better people anywhere and of course we all love Lizzie.

stargazer · Post by **stargazer** » Sun Aug 02, 2009 8:57 pm

Lizzie could have mumbled words about needing something from the sewing box. If they weren't on speaking terms, generally, Abby may have nodded "suit yourself", and gone back to her work on the tidying. Lizzie may have had the axe already in her room. With Lizzie moving in and out of the sewing area, it was just a matter of when to attack.