I was reading an article on the website "Histtory Buff.com" called the Borden murders. I found one statement interesting. It stated: "Police suspicions fell on four people as suspects in the case. They were: Bridget Sullivan the Borden maid, Lizzie Borden, the daughter of Andrew Borden and the step daughter of Abby Borden, John Morse the brother in law from a previous marriage, and an unknown fagrant who may or may not have been seen in the vacinitiy of the Borden house."
This is the first I heard of an unknown vagrant. How closely did the police look into the vagrant? Or was dismissed? Were the police concentrating more on the people in the house. I mean, that would make more sense to me. I wouldn't be chasing a ghost. Some people might have seen the vagrant but some might not.
But did the police check out the unknown vagrant.
Suicide is painless It brings on many changes and I will take my leave when I please.
As I continue on my own research, I've added David M. Anthony (per Ruby Cameron's story) and 2 others (including a beer salesman who was looking to rent a store in Fall River).
Inept is my word for the F.R. Police investigation.
nbcatlover - You found a beer salesman who wanted to rent a store??? That sounds fascinating!
What about the butcher, with the last name of Davis?
Thanks for the link, Harry. There were quite a few suspects. The police followed up on them pretty well, according to the papers. We just don't hear about them because it's all Lizzie, Lizzie, Lizzie.
I would love to know what the police did to clear Bridget Sullivan. She had to have been a suspect, the same as Lizzie. But I don't recall reading why they cleared her.
I did read why they didn't try her, which was because they had the same situation as Lizzie - just circumstantial evidence which would have almost surely ended in an acquittal for Bridget, too.
The weird thing is that from the research I'm finding, I think someone else examined this guy some time ago. I don't know whether it was another Borden researcher or what, but either they didn't find the smoking gun or chose, intentionally, not to bring the information forward. It may be unimportant to a resolution of the crimes, but I think there's still a lot of "hidden" information pertaining to this case.
I don't think the police did an adequate job searching for the young man seen in front of the Borden house with a carriage.
Davis was one possible. David Anthony is another. The beer salesman and his driver are others. None of these people even made the police investigation. There was also suppose to be a worker Andrew was going to pay after going to the bank--who was he? did he ever come back?
The fascinating aspect of the case is my feeling that Lizzie never lies. She may not tell the whole truth, but I believe there is some factual element to everything she says. This includes her feelings that the family was in danger, that something was going to happen, as expressed to Alice Russell the evening before the crimes.
Hi snokums--it does seem like certain types of workers were just part of the scenery and almost invisible to the police.
Who was the farm worker who delivered the milk? Was there an iceman who delivered to the house...I don't even know if the Borden's had an icebox. Why were the Whiteheads at the police picnic? Did the general public usually attend? Was their presence at Rocky Point known, in advance, by Lizzie? So many questions unanswered.
Second Street was a busy street; a noisy street. I'm not surprised everything wasn't noticed.
Nbcatlover, yes, the man in the carriage is a good example, I think, of a suspect disappearing and not being followed up on. At least, I never read of the cops finding him or trying to find him.
I don't know if the whole amusement point, Rocky Point, was closed off to the public on August 4th.
The cops did run down suspects in many cases and were better than I thought in doing that. It'd be interesting to read what they did about the ones you question, if they did anything.
The scene of the crime was almost a joke, with anyone who wanted to walking into the house or barn. Any of the site-seers going in there could have walked out with the weapon.
Yes, the Bordens did have an ice box. I don't think I've ever seen the ice man's name before, but that would have been easy enough for the police to get.
That list I created is 16 pages long in Word Doc format.
I think on the website, it's about 4 pages?
(Just so folks know there are several pages there.)
As for police follow-up, there are probably more people they checked that we don't know about.
We don't even know if we have the complete Witness Statements.
I have the story here that was a letter to Yankee Magazine in response to an article on the Borden murders. (Whoever sent me this~Thanks)
I've thought about transcribing it for this topic- it is germane.
November 16, 1966 When I was a young woman, I heard the story of a man who perhaps at one time held the key to unlock the mystery of the Borden tragedy.
One day many years after Lizzie Borden of Fall River, Massachusetts, was tried for murder of her parents, I happened to meet a man who unexpectedly brought the whole gruesome tragedy into focus again.
I had stopped at a farm in the adjoining county to ask the owner if a new kind of squash he had grown that season would be satisfactory for me to plant in my own small vegetable garden another year.
He answered my query and then as his wife was still busy clearing up after dinner, he showed me over his place. We finally came to a standstill beside a fenced orchard where contented hens were pecking around beneath the trees. As we did so a little oldish man hurried past us with a pan of table scraps and called the biddies to a feast. I watched him casually. I never dreamed he could possibly have any connection with the unsolved Borden murder mystery, nor that, as long as I lived, I would never forget him.
You could see that he understood hens for they circled about him clucking companionably. "That fellow belongs on a chicken farm," observed my host. "But," he added, "It wouldn't work. He could feed the biddies and collect the eggs, but he couldn't kill a chicken for market, if his life depended on it."
The man had turned now and I could see his somewhat vacant but gentle face topped by straggly gray hair. There was a nervous twitch to his mouth, however, and an anxious look in his faded blue eyes that made me ask, "He's a bit nervous over something, isn't he?"
"Yeah, and I guess I'll let you hear what he told me about that last night. You aren't a blabbermouth, and it won't hurt to repeat it to you. He's been worse than he is today, for over a week, but he says he'll be better now and I sure hope so."
Just then the wife came out and we three went around to the front piazza. There the farmer nodded in my direction and said "I'm a telling her about Joe, Molly." Then he turned to our conversation and went on.
"I've always called my men 'Joe' no matter what their real names are. Well, this Joe, every night when we'd finish supper and sit at the table to talk about what had happened during the day, would get up and go into the sitting room to glance over the paper. Then he'd start up to bed for he was tired early since he got up at four o'clock every morning along with me.
"One night he seemed terribly jittery and upset after he'd read the news, and when he left I looked to see what it was that made him feel that way. All that I could come across that was unusual was a piece about the Lizzie Borden case.
" 'Course that was a terrible affair, but it happened so long ago it didn't seem as if anyone ought to be upset about it now. Well Joe, he got more jittery every day. His hands shook, his legs wobbled and he seemed in a daze. "What's the matter, Joe?" I finally asked. "You sick?"
"He said he'd tell me about everything sometime, and then he'd feel better and last night he did just that, and it's quite a yarn. Now I'm the jittery one. He feels better because he's got it off his chest but my wife and I, we don't know what we ought to do about him."
"Tell me and let me share the responsibility," I said.
The farmer looked relieved and in a few moments began again.
"Joe was the runt of a big family that had a good old New England name. They lived on a farm and his brothers and sisters made fun of him because he was too spleeny to do heavy work. He didn't go far in school either. He grew up a loner, for the others were so much stronger and smarter than he was.
"When he was twenty-one his father gave him a little money for a start and he walked to the nearest city. That city was Fall River and here he looked about for a job. He was lucky too. You wouldn't expect jobs to be plentiful in a mill city for someone that could only do light farm labor.
"But there were a good many people there who didn't want a man all day every day, to look after their places, but would like a handy man to do jobs now and then as needed- clean a stable, curry and harness a horse, cut grass, weed a flower bed- you know what I mean.
"Joe was just right for such things and he always kept busy. One man let him sleep in a room over a stable. Cooks were always giving him leftovers to eat, so his living expenses were small and though he didn't charge much for what he did, he got along fine.
"One of the places he worked at, he told me, was the Borden's, and here a curious thing happened. He sort of fell in love with the daughter Lizzie. She was older than he was, but she was so domineering and strong, where he was shy and weak, he thought her wonderful. Said she was a good looker too, and her not being a favorite in her family, just as he hadn't been in his family, made her seem closer to him. He never told her how he felt but he was so glad to run errands for her, I guess she knew she had him wound round her finger, and figured he'd do anything she wanted him to and not ask questions.
"One day, as he was putting litter he'd raked up into a barrel to cart away, Lizzie came to the kitchen door and beckoned him over. She was wiping of a hatchet with a piece of rag. She handed the hatchet to him and told him to put it in the barn. He saw nothing strange about the request or about her wiping it off. Everyone wiped off used tools in those days to keep them in good condition. Tools cost money and money was scarce.
"She tossed the rag into the midst of the litter in the barrel and then said,'Wait, I've got something else to throw away.' She went into the house and in a few minutes came out and handed him a bundle wrapped in paper and tied around with a string.
"He put the hatchet in the barn and the bundle in the barrel in a wheelbarrow, and soon was trundling his load down the street to a lot where fill was needed. He felt proud he could show Miss Lizzie he could handle a man-sized load even though he knew it was light weight.
"After he'd dumped the stuff, he had to rest awhile, and then finding he was not only hot and tired but faint, as it was noon, he felt in his pocket for the quarter Mr. Borden had given him that morning for what he'd done. He'd spent ten cents of it for two fresh crullers and a glass of milk at a little shop he knew about.
"When he'd eaten he took the barrel and the wheelbarrow back to the Borden barn and put them where they belonged. He noticed people going in and out of the house more than usual. 'What's going on,' he asked a woman he'd worked for as she went along the walk.
" 'Abby and Andrew Borden have been murdered,' and added,'with a hatchet,' though she could hardly speak for she was crying.
"Joe said he felt sick all at once and as if he'd slump down right there. He couldn't believe Mr. and Mrs. Borden could have been murdered. And with a hatchet! Why such things hadn't happened since Indian times. If anyone was around killing with hatchets, he'd better hide the Borden hatchet out of sight. He didn't want any more murders. He went in the barn, took the hatchet and put it behind the horse stall. As he did so he remembered Miss Lizzie. She'd handed it to him that morning. What had she been using it for? Not to kill her father and mother. Oh no, he was sure of that, though he knew she hated them at times and she did have a terrible temper.
"He stumbled out into the yard. A policeman passed by and greeted him with a sober nod. Would the police question him later as to what he'd done every minute that morning? Suddenly he remembered Miss Lizzie cleaning off the hatchet with the rag. Was there blood on the rag? He recalled the bundle. Were there bloody things in the bundle? He must go down to the rubbish lot and find out. If there were bloody things he would have to take them to the police and tell how they got there. He couldn't believe Miss Lizzie had done the killings but if she had she must pay for doing them. Would they hang her? He shuddered. All the same he must find out before the police asked him questions. He hurried away to where he had dumped the litter.
"When he reached there he found he was too late. During the noon hour one or two cartloads of clutch had been dumped right on top of his little pile. His was buried so deep he could not possibly unearth the rag or the bundle.
' 'Guess it's a sign I'd better mind my own business,' he thought. In a way he felt better. He wouldn't have to be the one to find out for sure if Miss Lizzie was the killer or not. The police would come up with the murderer. He sure hoped they would. He liked Mr. and Mrs. Borden. He couldn't bear to think they hadn't been let to live out their lives peacefully.
"He went to his room after that and flung himself, spent and shaken, on his cot. For a long time afterward he did his usual work but he felt half-sick and stunned.
"When the Superior Court trial took place a feeling of guilt developed in his mind and he worried. He should have told the police at the beginning. They would have known how to get at the rag and bundle. Now rain and snow and still more clutch had fallen on his rubbish pile. It would do no good to tell about it now. Bloodstains would be washed away and everything be a sodden mass. Miss Lizzie's acquittal and the fact that nobody at all had been convicted of the murders bothered him no end. He could not bear to stay in Fall River any longer and made up his mind to leave it for all time. He especially did not want to chance meeting Miss Lizzie.
Of his life after that, the hired man told the farmer little. He never stayed long in one place and became a pathetic drifter. He'd never gone hungry however; there was always a meal for an odd-jobs man. In summer he often slept on haymows or in the lee of a haystack in a field. In cold weather he looked for work where he could stay in a house nights, though a barn with cows in it was always warm. So the hired man, after he got started, had talked on and on. He never mentioned names of people or places though. Folks were always good to him, he said.
"And now," concluded the farmer, "what shall I do with him? Turn him over to the authorities? Their questions and reporters would drive him crazy or kill him; I don't know which. HE couldn't be called guilty of doing any wrong but concealing possible evidence even if they believed what he said. There'd be no way today to disprove or prove his story either. The wife and I thought we might tell an old judge that comes here summers, all about it. What do you think?" It seemed a good idea. They could abide by the judge's wisdom.
But there was no need to tell anyone. Some extrasensory perception must have made the hired man sure that the stranger who saw him feed the hens was hearing his story, and he didn't know what the consequences would be. That night he quietly assembled his few belongings, then stole down stairs and out into the night, completely vanishing. The farmer never saw him again .
We all wondered what had become of him. Could he have got to a box car on the tracks not far away, and slipping within its safety, later been whisked out to the midwest? Could he have reached the waterfront and boarded a packet that had a soft-hearted skipper? Could he have tramped along woods roads to the cranberry bogs and joined the pickers there? No one ever knew. Joe just couldn't be located.
Do you believe his story? It was plausible.
Do you believe he was a crackpot? Perhaps. He had been through a great deal.
Whatever you believe, I am sure you feel, as we did, that wherever he was, someone would look out for him and care for him to the very end.
It's half a century since I was told I was not a blabbermouth but I feel I'm not betraying a confidence now in telling the story of this pitiable, bewildered man, who tried tried so hard to be independent and make his own living and do what was right. I can never forget him.
Sincerely,
Marion Hicks Campbell
----from Yankee Magazine. The chapter was called "The Unfathomable Borden Riddle" by John U. Ayotte. The editors added this note after reprinting the article:
Yankee Magazine originally published this story [the Ayotte chapter] in August 1966. Soon after the magazine appeared on the newstands, we received a flood of mail related to the article. Certain letters offered surprising testimony- some of it firsthand, most of it hearsay, all of it interesting. Here's one that reads something like an epilogue.
----This was the introduction to the "letter" printed that is transcribed here.
That is an interesting story. I always liked Yankee magazine. Now it has me wondering where the dump was that Joe deposited the tied up bundle. If the dump was near the Borden house would the police have searched it?
Bless you for having the patience to read the whole thing!
I type with one finger!
Since I had read this item several times over the years, as I typed my mind was looking at alternate people to insert in there to take the place of "Joe" in the story. It is plausible enough to have a germ of truth in it. My imagination substituted Emma.
Read: Emma didn't know anything but was asked for help in dumping or hiding or concealing something after the fact by a guilty Lizzie. Unsophisticated and naive Emma complies.
Then she gets to wondering, over time, is suspicious, yet it's too late to take back what she did and too late to prove anything~ too late to recover the potential evidence.
Then, she can't sleep, can't concentrate, gets nervous, decides to leave Lizzie. Moves away- but still can't really settle anywhere. It haunts her. Her friends see the change and as the letter-writer in this item states- they hope someone will care for Emma the rest of her remaining life.
Meanwhile, no matter who this other 'victim' is- unknown 'Joe' or her own sister, Emma- Lizzie lives her life as normally as possible, unknowing or uncaring how the crime has affected her sister, or any innocent others whose lives have changed...
It seems so real...
This lady, Campbell, says it was 50 years earlier- that would be 1916 or thereabouts that she heard the story.
Personally, the letter is a little too 'urban legend' for me. A good yarn but no real details (man name, family surname, no specific details about the Bordens or their house/grounds/habits that one could not get from a newspaper), and then the man just disappears.
People used to beat up on Ray for believing the Bill Borden story. At least that story had a name and some details.
The story would need more specifics to be credible to me.
It seems almost like a professional writer, to me.
I would liked to have seen those other letters the magazine received~ and what criteria they used to sift thru to publish this one?
But, lest we forget~ I do like to give the benefit of the possibility of a germ of truth in any story (even Brown)- but yes- it needs some kind of verification, agreed.
xyjw asked about a dump. Maybe you would know of one nearby Second Street?
Although it is an intriguing story, I agree with nbcatlover, the letter is a bit too 'urban legend' for me. There is not very much to go on. The story definitely needs to be verified.
I am also curious to find out if there was a dump site near the Borden house on second street, at the time these murders occurred.
Kat @ Sat Jan 02, 2010 12:35 am wrote:… "When he'd eaten he took the barrel and the wheelbarrow back to the Borden barn and put them where they belonged. He noticed people going in and out of the house more than usual. 'What's going on,' he asked a woman he'd worked for as she went along the walk.
" 'Abby and Andrew Borden have been murdered,' and added,'with a hatchet,' though she could hardly speak for she was crying.
"Joe said he felt sick all at once and as if he'd slump down right there. He couldn't believe Mr. and Mrs. Borden could have been murdered. And with a hatchet! Why such things hadn't happened since Indian times. If anyone was around killing with hatchets, he'd better hide the Borden hatchet out of sight. He didn't want any more murders. He went in the barn, took the hatchet and put it behind the horse stall. As he did so he remembered Miss Lizzie. She'd handed it to him that morning. What had she been using it for? Not to kill her father and mother. Oh no, he was sure of that, though he knew she hated them at times and she did have a terrible temper.
"He stumbled out into the yard. A policeman passed by and greeted him with a sober nod. Would the police question him later as to what he'd done every minute that morning? Suddenly he remembered Miss Lizzie cleaning off the hatchet with the rag. Was there blood on the rag? He recalled the bundle. Were there bloody things in the bundle? He must go down to the rubbish lot and find out. If there were bloody things he would have to take them to the police and tell how they got there. He couldn't believe Miss Lizzie had done the killings but if she had she must pay for doing them. Would they hang her? He shuddered. All the same he must find out before the police asked him questions. He hurried away to where he had dumped the litter.
"When he reached there he found he was too late. During the noon hour one or two cartloads of clutch had been dumped right on top of his little pile. His was buried so deep he could not possibly unearth the rag or the bundle.
' 'Guess it's a sign I'd better mind my own business,' he thought. In a way he felt better. He wouldn't have to be the one to find out for sure if Miss Lizzie was the killer or not. The police would come up with the murderer. He sure hoped they would. He liked Mr. and Mrs. Borden. He couldn't bear to think they hadn't been let to live out their lives peacefully. ...
There are a couple of things that I don’t find credible in this story; see the lines I have highlighted…
If there were people going in and out of the house more than usual, when he took the barrel and wheelbarrow back to the Borden barn, how come no one seemed to notice him?
After putting the barrel and wheelbarrow where they belonged, he had came out of the barn and had gotten near enough to the walk to ask a woman, who was on the walk, 'What's going on.' Again, how come no one, except the woman on the walk, seemed to notice him?
Then he went back to the barn where he took the hatchet and put it behind the horse stall. Again no one seemed to notice his going to and from the barn, then back to the barn again. Was there ever a hatchet found in this location?
Then he stumbled out into the yard, where a policeman passed by and greeted him with a nod. Apparently, the policeman didn’t notice this man’s activities either!
And, no one seems to have noticed that this man left the Borden property as he headed back to the rubbish lot to see if he could find the bundle that he had dumped there.
In remembrance of my beloved son: "Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 ) “God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
I think there were 2 stories of a potential weapon being found in the barn- one when the barn was taken down in 1919 I think?
I thought maybe these stories that made the papers might have helped contribute to this "story."
Also, there should be an allowance made for the fact that the "story" is third-hand and 50 years old (in 1966).
'Joe' tells the farmer, the farmer tells Campbell, Campbell (supposedly) writes it in a letter to a magazine, who publishes it. Well, technically, maybe considered second-hand, but we don't know if the editor edited the letter, which would make it third-hand.
The human element is believable- folks were described as thinking and feeling and acting in certain ways under extraordinary circumstances that come off as believable. It's a good story, I think.
Harry has one from The Knowlton Papers about *the Smith boy* that is very interesting, too. Maybe he will put it here?
Even if the story is total fiction, it brings light to the fact there are peripheral witnesses or innocent accessories who become aware after the fact. These may be incorrect terms, but I am trying to describe an idea rather than a fact. My family is from southeastern Mass. and not involved in the Borden murders. But when I first learned about the Borden case I immediately asked my grandparents about it and their facial expressions became stern, the room was silent and the subject immediately switched to something else. I knew not to persist with my grandfather but I pulled my grandmother aside later to see why their reaction was so weird. She only said that it was not a good idea to discuss such things and not to talk about it. So I left it alone but my grandparents response is what caused me to become so intrigued with the Borden case in the first place. I often wonder, did their grandparents know someone like "Joe"? Had they heard interesting local stories? I also think Emma realized after the fact that Lizzie committed the murders and maybe didn't realize she had perhaps disposed of evidence or later realized she had witnessed something. It seems like something always haunted her and she eventually left Lizzie to distance herself from the memories. Yes, it's like Emma's story is being told through the Joe character in the Yankee Magazine story.
The unnoticed activities of ‘Joe’ was just something I happened to pick up on when I read the story. You’re right, Kat, we don’t know if the story may have been changed since it went through so many people. I agree that the human element is believable. As I stated in my previous post, it is an intriguing story. Thanks for sharing the letter with us.
In remembrance of my beloved son: "Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 ) “God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
Kat @ Sun Jan 03, 2010 1:49 pm wrote:Harry has one from The Knowlton Papers about *the Smith boy* that is very interesting, too. Maybe he will put it here?
The story in the Knowlton papers (HK142, p147) is some 5 to 6 pages in length, too long to post in its entirety here. Here is an edited version:
Alfred A. Smith, a boy sixteen years old, son of Robert Smith, of Suffolk St. Fall River, Mass. who was sent from Fall River, Second District Court for Breaking, Entering & Larceny on Dec. 28, 1892, made the following statement to me, in the presence of Deputy Superintendent Charles Hart.
I formerly worked for the Globe Street Railway Co. Fall River, part of the time at the North barn, Bowenville and part of the time driving a lead horse on cars from City Hall, throught South Main St. to Morgan St.; ........"
At this point he describes his wandering around downtown and eventually ends up on Second St.
"When I got in front of the Borden house, I saw a woman looking out of the window, as if looking up and down the street; there were lace curtains at this window, and she was moving the curtains aside with her hands; the window was not open; I have known this was the Borden house for some time. When she saw me she backed away from the window, I do not know who the woman was, she had bangs on her forehead, I think I would know her face again if I saw it.
I continued down Second St. as far as the Academy of Music, I then turned and went back, and when in front of the Borden house, I saw the same woman a little way from the same window, she was untying a bundle.
I should say the bundle was about eighteen inches long, and strong paper around it, looked as if it was cloth of some kind; saw her take out some kind of wooden handle, when she saw me she backed away from the window toward the South of the room, and I went on to Roberson's Candy store again. I bought more candy, came out of store and came down Second St. towards City Hall again, when passing the Borden house I saw lying just inside the front fence, and near to the fence on North side of lot a hatchet and a pair of kid gloves; the gloves were all covered with blood; I went in and picked up the gloves and put them in my left hand coat pocket; I picked up the hatchet the blade was well covered with blood, and there were stains of blood on the handle. I put the hatchet under my coat and buttoned it up, as I turned to come out of the yard, I saw the same woman that I saw at the window, halfway out of the door, this door was on the north side and at the east end of the Borden house, as soon as she saw me looking at her she drew in quickly and shut the door.
I ran out of the yard and down Second St. as far as the entrance in the rear of the Post Office, this entrance is where the mail wagon's drive in; I went into the Post Office yard & went to the stream at the South of the yard and washed the hatchet and gloves.
Question. What did you think about the blood on these articles?
Answer. I thought some carpenter had been using the hatchet, and cut his hand and threw it down in the yard where I found it.
After washing the gloves and hatchet I placed them back where I first had them in my coat; came out of the yard crossed Second st. through Market St. to horse-cars in front of City Hall, got on the car and rode North to Turner St. Got off the car and went down Turner St. went into the barn same way I came out, and hid the hatchet. ......"
At this point he goes off on another ramble of his about town trips.
"Took my lead horse and came up through South Main St. to City Hall, and went to work towing cars up South Main St. as far as Morgan St. took my horse back to barn on Broadway & got through about 10:55 p.m. Took the car and came back to Bowenville barn; went into the barn got the hatchet and took it home; kept it about three weeks. The edge of the hatchet was smooth having no nicks in it, but in using it at home to break up a dry goods box I dulled it and nicked it very badly. I sold it to Thomas Connors who keeps a little store near Fulton St. School; he gave me ten cents worth of candy for it.
The gloves I used to drive horse with, one of them got wore out and I threw it away, the other I think is at home in the bureau drawer, I am not sure but I think it is. The gloves were too long in the fingers and too small in the wrists for me. I think it is the left hand glove that is at home.
Question: Why didn't you tell the police about this hatchet and gloves when you heard the Borden's had been murdered?
Answer: Because I was afraid to do so.
Question: What was you afraid of?
Answer: I don't know, but I was afraid.
Question: Did you ever tell anyone in Fall River what you had found?
Answer: No I never told anyone.
Question: Who was the first one you ever spoke to about it?
Answer: To the Officer who has charge of the room I work in at the Reformatory; also to Deputy Superintendent Hart.
Question: Why didn't you tell me when you was in the lock up in Fall River?
Answer: Because I was afraid to. I was going to tell my father, when he came to see me in the lock-up, but he only stayed a minute or two and I did not have time to tell him.
Question: What was the cause of your telling the Officers at the Reformatory?
Answer: Because I kept thinking about it and couldn't get it out of my mind.
Question: Did anyone tell you or talk with you about making up this story?
Answer: No, nobody whatever
Question: What time did you leave the barn to go up to Stanton Bros.?
Answer: I should say it was 10 a.m.
Question: Which window of the Borden house did you see the woman first looking out of?
Answer: It was at the South window on the front of the house downstairs.
Question: What window was she at when you saw her the second time?
Answer: The same window.
Question: Did you notice whether the blinds were closed on the other window on the front of the house or not?
Answer: I think the white shutters were closed on the inside.
Question: Did you notice how the windows up stairs were?
Answer: I think they were shut also the white shutters on the inside.
Question: How was the woman you saw at the door dressed?
Answer: I don't know.
Question: When you went into the gate after the hatchet which way did you turn to your right or left?
Answer: I turned to my left and went North towards the other house.
Question: How close to the other house was the hatchet?
Answer: It was within three or four feet of the fence, next to the other house.
Question: Is there a fence there?
Answer: Yes: a board fence with some bushes or vines growing on the North side.
Question: If you should see the Borden house could you tell it?
Answer: Yes: (here the picture of three or four houses was shown him and he selected the Borden house, also the window where he saw the woman; he also pointed to the place where the door would be, where he saw the woman, when he was picking up the hatchet. He said there were steps at this door and they run up to door from both sides. He also identified the barn, and Dr. Kelly's house and the Buffinton house.
Question: Did you see anyone sitting on the steps of the house North of the Borden house?
Answer: No, I did not.
Question: Did you see a team across the street directly opposite the Borden house?
Answer: No, I did not.
Question: Do you know where the grocery store is South from the Borden house on Second st.?
Answer: I do.
Question: Did you see any men or boys in front of that store?
Answer: I did not. I think there was a grocery team standing in front.
Question: Did anyone see you pick up the hatchet and gloves?
Answer: Nobody that I know of but the woman I saw standing in the door of the Borden house.
Question: Did you speak to anybody after you picked up the hatchet before you got to the horse-cars?
Answer: No, I did not.
Question: Did you make this story up or is it the truth you are telling me?
Answer: No I did not make it up. It is just as I have told you and is the truth.
Question: (By Mr. Hart) Has anyone in the institution said anything to you about this matter before you spoke to them about it?
Answer: No: nobody.
Question: (By Mr. Hart) Do you know that this is a pretty serious affair for you if you have made this story up and it is not the truth?
Answer: Yes sir I do; but it is the truth.
Question: (By Mr. Hilliard) Now Alfred all that you have told us is the truth?
Answer: Yes sir.
Question: You are sure of it are you?
Answer: Yes I am it is the truth.
Question: You say you have never told anyone of it until you came to the Institution.
Answer: I did not tell anyone before I came here. I was going to tell my father but did not. I thought of telling the Officer, when he brought me here, when we were in the cars.
Question: Why didn't you?
Answer: Because there were so many talking I did not get a chance to do so.
This ended the conversation.
A mark on the hatchet:
1
C. Hammond
Phila.
Cast Steel."
Whew, that's a lot of typing. Read with a large dose of skepticism!
I know I ask perfection of a quite imperfect world
And fool enough to think that's what I'll find
Wow, Harry. I don't know if your post or Kat's post is the longest!
Thank you so much for sharing this with us.
In remembrance of my beloved son: "Vaya Con Dios" (Spanish for: "Go with God"), by Anne Murray ( https://tinyurl.com/y8nvqqx9 ) “God has you in heaven, but I have you in my heart.” ~ TobyMac (https://tinyurl.com/rakc5nd )
Kat and Harry's posts both make me ask the question of whether or not there was a statute of limitations in Massachusetts in the 1890's. If Lizzie had hidden the hatchet or dropped it into a place that she could not easily retrieve it, could she have been arrested for the murders and charged again? After her aquittal could she sell the house on Second St. and move to Maplecroft and not worry about the new owners "digging up" the hatchet? It is an interesting question because she either had to plan the murders and what she was going to do after committing them, or she committed them on impulse and had to act quickly to cover up her acts. Planning might have had the benefit of successfully disposing of the evidence, impulse might have caused a few loose ends. Her father was a successful local businessman and she must have had some realization that the police (and many other people) would not just get this case investigated and forgotten. If she acted on impulse someone like Joe would have been very convenient. If he were seen taking the evidence to the local dumpsite he would have more than likely been blamed for the murders.
I believe the concept of double jeopardy goes back to common law. Once acquitted, she's free...even if new evidence come forth. Unless the charge was as an accomplice rather than the actual murderer.
Alfred Smith's family is kind of interesting:
Name Relation Marital Status Gender Race Age Birthplace Occupation Father's Birthplace Mother's Birthplace
Robert SMITH Self M Male W 50 ENG Tin Peddler ENG ENG
Ann SMITH Wife M Female W 42 ENG Keeping House ENG ENG
Mary J. SMITH Dau S Female W 24 ENG Works In Cotton Mill ENG ENG
Frederick W. SMITH Son S Male W 18 ENG Works In Cotton Mill ENG ENG
Emerson L. SMITH Son S Male W 16 ENG Works In Cotton Mill ENG ENG
Auther R. SMITH Son S Male W 16 ENG Works In Cotton Mill ENG ENG
Salena A SMITH Dau S Female W 12 ENG At Home ENG ENG
Alfred A SMITH Son S Male W 3 MA ENG ENG
Cora A SMITH Dau S Female W 1 MA ENG ENG
Source Information: Census Place Fall River, Bristol, Massachusetts
Family History Library Film 1254524
NA Film Number T9-0524
Page Number 228D
Source: FamilySearch.org (Census of 1880)
Alfred's father was a tin peddler like Abraham Bowen Borden (Andrew's father), and his older brothers and a sister all worked in cotton mills. Alfred probably knew the house location and may have heard plenty of stories. Whether his story was just a ploy to get him out of reformatory or whether he, like Brownie, was on the Borden premises the day of murder is an interesting speculation. Again, not enough specific details for me.
SteveS. @ Mon Jan 04, 2010 8:58 am wrote:That stream in the center of Fall River is the Quequechan River.
Yes thanks Steve, I know~ because we "found" a new view of it downtown that not many know is there. At the one spot MB took us to, it was wild and flowing strongly with power- and Harry almost fell in! He is light on his feet tho and caught himself in time tho I grabbed his belt from behind- he had saved himself.
But this other overlook, not many know about and it was stunning to be close to such massive power. But I could not call it a "stream"- not the places we visited!
Yes Kat. The Quequechan is a powerfull and amazing river and the few places that she does peek out from where Fall River buried her, she is AWESOME. I think I know the spot you are referring to Kat. The thing about the Quequechan is that she does start out as a relatively gentle stream way to the East where she starts her trek from the Wautuppa Pond but by the time she is nearing the Taunton River she is boiling angry.
In memory of....Laddie Miller, Royal Nelson and Donald Stewart, Lizzie Borden's dogs. "Sleeping Awhile."
nbcatlover @ Sat Dec 19, 2009 6:24 am wrote:Hi snokums--it does seem like certain types of workers were just part of the scenery and almost invisible to the police.
Who was the farm worker who delivered the milk? Was there an iceman who delivered to the house...I don't even know if the Borden's had an icebox. Why were the Whiteheads at the police picnic? Did the general public usually attend? Was their presence at Rocky Point known, in advance, by Lizzie? So many questions unanswered.
I've been very busy and have had no time really to visit the forum. I am going to hopefully have a lot more time on my hands and hope to get caught up to you all.
Trial Testimony of Bridget Sullivan page 203:
Q. Did you go directly to bed?
A. Yes, sir: I went and took the lamp off the table and went to the ice chest and took a glass of milk. That was all.
Page 206
Q. After you had got your wood and coal and started your fire, what is the next thing that you did?
A. I unlocked my door and took in the milk and put a pan out for the ice man and a pitcher with some water in it.
Page 223:
Q. Now during that time were you in any other room except the kitchen and diningroom?
A. No, sir; except going in the kitchen closet to put things away, and so forth. Of course I had to go there, and the ice chest.
From Bridget's testimony it seems the milk may have been delivered by a regular milkman. I say regular because she states they kept one of the cans at all time. I've found the partial listing for the 1892 City Directory. But there are listings in 1882 in the Fall River City Directory for several "milkmen". They are Brault Paschal of no 2 Weetamoe mills block, Charles H. Brightman of 320 North Main, John L.T. Boomer, William B. Ashley who boarded at North Main, William Brownell, and Abraham L. Davis. There are five "milk dealers" Benjamin Jones of 190 Old Bedford Road, John Richardson who boarded at 7 Leonard St, John Byron of 20 Raymond Street, William H. Brown 98 East North Main, and Philip Flannery on Old Bedford Road. I'm assuming since the milk came so early in the morning it would have to be someone fairly close. Whether or not they were still employed in 1892 I wish I could say. I did find a listing for an ice man in the partial 1892 directory and he is Charles C. Borden.
Trial Testimony page 203:
Q. From time to time. What time in the morning did the milkman come, if he came in the morning?
A. I couldn't tell. The milk was always left. I guess probably five or half past five; I couldn't tell.
Page 204:
Q. You had two cans?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. One of which was with the milkman all the time and the other at home?
A. Yes, sir.
"He who cannot put his thoughts on ice should not enter into the head of dispute." - Friedrich Nietzsche
This is from the Fall River Herald of Aug. 4th, 1892:
"...Another sensational story is being told in connection with the murder. It appears that the members of the family have been ill for some days and the symptoms were very similar to those of poison. In the light of subsequent events this sickness has been recalled. It has been the custom of the family to receive its supply of milk from the Swansey farm every morning, and the can was left out of doors until the servant opened the house in the morning. Ample opportunity was afforded, therefore, for anybody who had a foul design to tamper with the milk, and this circumstance will be carefully investigated by the police."
Then in a later edition on the 4th of the Herald:
"... The story relative to the suspected milk has been verified, and the doctors will take special pains to look for traces of poison at the autopsy. Even if any are found, it will be difficult to form a clue from this fact, since it has been the custom to leave the can on the doorstep, and anybody could have tampered with it."
An unidentified "citizen" made this remark which appeared in the Evening Standard of Aug. 24th:
"...Did you ever know that when Andrew Borden wanted eggs or anything else from the farm he used to tie a note to the empty milk can which the Swede used to call for? No? Well, that's the case. "
So it would appear that the milk came from the Swansea farm each morning. I think that would be very odd if that was the only delivery that was made. But perhaps, like Stephen Manchester's job, the milk was delivered to Fall River each morning. Mr. Manchester and son were away delivering milk the morning Bertha Manchester was murdered in May 1893. It was said Mr. Manchester had a regular delivery route.
I know I ask perfection of a quite imperfect world
And fool enough to think that's what I'll find
I can't remember where I read this information about the Police Picnic at Rocky Point, but I do seem to remember reading that it wasn't just the policemen who showed up. It was also family and friends of the officers, and that was open to the public. That it was some kind of big affair when the policemen had their annual outting. It was announced in the papers ahead of time.
I wonder if the milk was delivered from the farm, why Lizzie would say she thought someone had put something in the milk? Wouldn't she realize that would possibly cast suspicion onto someone at the farm? She made statements that none of the farm hands should be suspected because they were all loyal to Andrew. This is kind contradictory saying someone might have tampered with it. It would be pretty bold to try to slip poison into the milk can as it sat on the porch. They would first have to linger outside the house waiting for the milk to be delivered. Then they could not know when Bridget might open the door to take the milk in.
This also raises a few questions. If the milk was delivered every morning from the farm, and Andrew could put a note on the can if he wanted anything, why did Uncle John make a trip to get some eggs? Someone came that morning to deliver milk, and it would seem they had on Wednesday morning also. Andrew could've added a note to the can Wednesday morning. The eggs could've been delivered later on Wednesday, or on Thursday morning with the milk. If the milk was delivered every morning, why did Mr. Eddy say that if Morse had not picked the eggs up he would've taken the train to deliver them on Thursday. Why two trips from the farm by two separate individuals to make deliveries? The milk gets delivered at around 5:00-5:30am, and then Mr. Eddy claims he would've taken the train to deliver eggs at around 11:00am? Something doesn't jive there.
The Witness Statements page 36, from the notes of George F. Seaver.
"...it has seemed to me a singular coincidence that he should come over that night for the eggs, for, had he not, I should have taken the train and gone to Mr. Borden's Thursday morning, arriving at the house about quarter to eleven or eleven. "
"He who cannot put his thoughts on ice should not enter into the head of dispute." - Friedrich Nietzsche
I think Lizzie when she said she didn't suspect workers at the farm she meant Eddy and Johnson who were both long time employees of Mr. Borden. I believe there were other workers.
It does not look like to me either of them normally delivered the milk. They were both questioned in the Witness statements and neither of them mentioned that as part of their duties. In fact the subject of the milk is not even mentioned at all. I would have thought who delivered the milk that morning would have been a top priority.
I know I ask perfection of a quite imperfect world
And fool enough to think that's what I'll find
Harry @ Mon Jan 11, 2010 3:38 pm wrote: I would have thought who delivered the milk that morning would have been a top priority.
I agree Harry. If the authorities thought the milk had been poisoned, the obvious question would be who had immediate access to the milk that was delivered.
I found this on page 1744 of the trial transcript. Robinson included it in his closing argument. To save myself some typing I will just state that when first asked if Uncle John or Bridget could've done it Lizzie stated no she did not believe they could have.
" Then somebody said: Why, the Portugese on the farm. No, says Lizzie, he is not a Portugese; he is a Swede, and my father has not had any man that ever worked for him that would do that to him. Not Alfred Johnson that worked for them, not Mr. Eddy, another farmer that worked for them, no assistant, --- I cannot believe it of any of them."
"He who cannot put his thoughts on ice should not enter into the head of dispute." - Friedrich Nietzsche
I was reading an article on the website "Histtory Buff.com" called the Borden murders. I found one statement interesting. It stated: "Police suspicions fell on four people as suspects in the case. They were: Bridget Sullivan the Borden maid, Lizzie Borden, the daughter of Andrew Borden and the step daughter of Abby Borden, John Morse the brother in law from a previous marriage, and an unknown fagrant who may or may not have been seen in the vacinitiy of the Borden house."
