Lizzie and Asperger's Syndrome

lynneverhart1 · Post by **lynneverhart1** » Wed Dec 30, 2009 10:50 am

If any of you are not familiar with Asperger's Syndrome, it is an Autism Spectrum Disorder. Unlike being autistic where functioning and learning can be very impaired, those with Asperger's are intelligent, but have trouble functioning socially with people. I have two elderly relatives, one my mother's brother, who my mother only described as "being different".
And another one on my father's side of the family, never worked, but took care of elderly family members, and was a fantastic golfer. Knowing what I know now about them, I would say they both have Asperger's Syndrome. Here are the symptoms, and remember such a long time ago this was not diagnosed, those people were just thought of as different.

Asperger syndrome (AS) is a developmental disorder that is characterized by: 1

limited interests or an unusual preoccupation with a particular subject to the exclusion of other activities

repetitive routines or rituals
peculiarities in speech and language, such as speaking in an overly formal manner or in a monotone, or taking figures of speech literally
socially and emotionally inappropriate behavior and the inability to interact successfully with peers
problems with non-verbal communication, including the restricted use of gestures, limited or inappropriate facial expressions, or a peculiar, stiff gaze
clumsy and uncoordinated motor movements

nbcatlover · Post by **nbcatlover** » Fri Jan 01, 2010 12:12 am

Personally, I have wondered if Lizzie was bipolar. I've known people with diagnosed Asperger's, and in my expeirence, Lizzie doesn't fit the profile.

lynneverhart1 · Post by **lynneverhart1** » Fri Jan 01, 2010 8:15 am

Well, since obviously none of us knew her personally, it's all speculation. But a couple of the traits, not socially functioning well with peers (she sure didn't have many friends) and a peculiar stiff gaze, well, that's sort of hits her on the head. Wow, as soon as I wrote that, I realized the irony of it.

snokkums · Post by **snokkums** » Fri Jan 01, 2010 8:16 am

I think maybe she was a little of both. Maybe just alittle different.

Mara · Post by **Mara** » Fri Jan 01, 2010 12:30 pm

One of the things that Aspies tend not to do well is empathize. Yet, Lizzie was apparently able to connect emotionally with her servants and was highly regarded by them. It's hard for me to imagine that she could have had those relationships without being able to break through the Asperger's to connect with these people in a caring way. But I wouldn't rule out some level of autism, or anything else, for that matter, that would answer even a few of the many questions we have about her. Pretty fascinating.

lynneverhart1 · Post by **lynneverhart1** » Fri Jan 01, 2010 1:11 pm

I'm not so sure about that. I would agree that being autistic hampers ones being empathetic, but I have a couple of friends who have kids with Asperger's, they are very affectionate and I am assuming empathetic, to those they are close to. I'm not saying Lizzie had Asperger's or not.
I'm just saying her being "different" made me think of a couple of my own elderly relatives who we now can look at and say they most likely have Asperger's, but growing up 80 years ago, they were considered "different".

Yooper · Post by **Yooper** » Fri Jan 01, 2010 10:31 pm

It's pretty difficult to retrofit a diagnosis without observing Lizzie directly. Anything we know about her is second hand at best and is subject to at least one interpretation. Some people thought she was peculiar, others thought she was not at all unusual. That could well be said about anyone, then or now.

Mara · Post by **Mara** » Sat Jan 02, 2010 11:56 am

I think it would be instructive for us to try to reconstruct ourselves from the scraps of info we've already left in our wakes -- probably a lot more than Lizzie did, but still, pretty thin stuff compared with really knowing us in the flesh. It sure is fun to speculate , though, and use what we know about human psychology to fill in some of Lizzie's blanks. And what of Andrew and Abby? One is tempted to subject the whole family to "parlor analysis."

Kat · Post by **Kat** » Sat Jan 02, 2010 6:10 pm

There is interesting speculation here.

My two cents:

In Victorian days, it would be possible because children were 'trained' to act a certain way and there sure were plenty of social rules. I'd think that someone could function pretty well, undiagnosed with certain things, because there were strict rules of conduct in society.
More so than now- when we are encouraged to be ourselves and let it all out.

Anyway, those guidelines could shelter plenty of potential misfits. Maybe at home tho, with their guard down, the real deviation from 'normal' would show to the family?

In the "Interview" with Emma Borden, in 1913, she is stated as proclaiming:
"Queer? Yes, Lizzie is queer. But guilty on that terrible charge made against her -- no -- emphatically, No! Time and again she has avowed her innocence to me, and I believe her.”

and further along:
"Some persons have stated that for years they considered Lizzie's actions decidedly queer.”
"But what if she did act queerly? Don't we all do something peculiar at some time or other?
"Queer? Yes Lizzie is queer. But as for her being guilty, I say 'No,' and decidedly 'No!'

augusta · Post by **augusta** » Sun Jan 03, 2010 10:04 am

I think it's interesting speculation, Lynne. But I don't agree with many of the symptoms on the list.

Lizzie staring could have just been in photographs. I don't remember reading of any repetitive rituals that she did. I never read that she was clumsy.

I believe that her not having many friends is a myth. She had a lot of friends, both before and after the trial. But it's true that she didn't start blossoming socially until she started to become involved in church activities.

Her formal way of speaking, well, that was how they talked back then. We basically only have her inquest testimony to "hear" how she talked, or some quotes others testified to - one of which was that she would make jokes about "Mrs. Borden", and I think I'd take that to be a social trait.

I think she did have something. Her own description to Alice Russell on the night of August 3, where she describes herself as feeling strange and girls at Marion asking her what was wrong and she couldn't describe it - it sounded as if that kind of feeling came over her every now and then.

She herself describes herself as a "nervous" woman when she writes the note to the neighbor at Maplecroft to ask him to shut his bird up.

And then there's her mother. I think her eyes look "crazy" in her later photo, and I think there was talk of her having migraines.

I can only think of her as having anxiety. But we know so little about her. Anxiety can make one nervous, and it can also make a person stare off into space as another trait. She could have lived easily with anxiety and no one much noticed it if she wasn't too affected.

It's an interesting syndrome, tho.

I'd think that if she were bi-polar, it would have been noticed in some big ways. Why do you guess bi-polar, nbcatlover?

The incident of her flying off the handle at the workman at Maplecroft I think is a good insight into something. Wouldn't that be called 'flying into sudden rages'?

(Loved your "two cents" graphic, Kat, and enjoyed your post.)

Davo · Post by **Davo** » Mon Mar 29, 2010 2:09 pm

Having a 24 year old son with Aspberger's Syndrome, I doubt very seriously that Lizzie Borden suffered from it. My son has a 140 IQ and is very empathetic and caring about others. His sociability is hampered as well as being able to take multiple directions. Also his brain goes on overload and he needs at times to be by himself to recharge. I don't see this in Lizzie Borden.