What would you have done if you were Lizzie?

[Gaheris]

This is going with the idea that Lizzie is guilty, which is my opinion.

So - you have just murdered your father and your stepmother is also lying dead upstairs. Bridget, at this moment is in her room taking a nap. If you were Lizzie, what would you do at this time?

Would you do the same as she did? Call for Bridget's assistance? Or take a different path?

If I were Lizzie, and were thinking clearly, I think I would alert Bridget and then insist that the two of us leave the house to find a neighbour and tell them of what has occurred. I would also try to make myself appear frightened and panicked, possibly hysterical.

I also think that I would have allowed Abby to be found in due time, rather than make up a story about hearing her come in, as in hindsight, that probably would have been the better move.

It's hard to say, really. I just hope that I am never in such a situation!

[DJ]

I think Lizzie was unwilling to leave the premises because she wanted to know what others' reactions to the crime were going to be. I think she had incriminating items stashed in the cellar, and probably elsewhere. If she had changed out of the paint-stained dress that she later burned, then that dress was obviously concealed somewhere. (I believe in a hiding place in the clothes press upstairs, to which Lizzie controlled the key.) The handle-less hatchet-- if in fact the murder weapon (I believe so)-- was in the cellar and uncovered.

Lizze, I speculate, wanted to be very, very aware of what was discovered and being hypothesized. Ergo, her need to remain on premises.

I think a "normal" reaction would have been to run to a neighbor's, probably without even summoning Bridget. Maybe sending a male neighbor (armed) back for her. Our natural instinct is self-preservation in life/death situations. Flight or fight.

Lizzie ought to have exhibited grief. Or, better yet and far easier, just swooned. Been put to bed and never, ever opened her mouth. She never should have spoken on the record about the crimes. Andrew Jennings should have appeared at the Inquest and claimed his client was too bereft, too overwhelmed to give testimony.

But, by my line of thinking, Lizzie couldn't have taken the best and easiest course, and merely swooned. That's because she was apparently too eager to keep on top of what was happening around her, and to attempt to stage-manage as best she could in her responses to the constabulary.

[Yooper]

Leaving the house and summoning the police should probably lead the list. Just running outside and hollering for help would be a start. Unless she knew where the killer was, remaining in the house shouldn't have entered her mind.

[Angel]

I would have acted hysterical and run out of the house to the police station. I would say that it looked like someone had stabbed her dad (actually, that was the only smart thing she really did, because it would make her look like she had no idea why he was bleeding) and I would have acted too afraid to go back into the house because I would be terrified someone might still be inside. Then I would have screamed that her stepmother and Bridget were still in the house and were possibly in danger and then fall apart all over again. I would pretend to be so freaked out that absolutely no one would be able to convince me to stay overnight in the house. And I would stay at someone else's house and get hysterical again if anyone would try to leave me alone for a minute.

Acting paranoid would help too- keep saying that someone might come back to take care of her and Emma because maybe someone had it in for the whole family.

[stargazer]

Hyperventilate, and run to Mrs. Churchills. If Ms C wasn't home, run to the stable across the road, tell them to summon the police, or generally wave my arms, and shout "help me....my father has been killed... Bridget is in the house.." then sit on the ground, cover my face, and sob....cling to someone shaking, and crying..show fear of going BACK into the house...even with police there....I would also have gone into the barn, and made it look VERY much like I had been rooting around upstairs.

[Constantine]

I don't think I would have feigned hysteria, grief or anything else. Feigned emotions are almost always pretty transparent and would create suspicion rather than allaying it. The agitation caused by the situation (ambiguous, of course) would have been sufficient (which, evidently, it was). I would have left the house as silently as possible, alerted Mrs. Churchill and sent for the police.

It must be admitted that what Lizzie did worked, even if her judgment was not the greatest in all respects. I certainly agree that she should have kept her mouth shut about Abby.

[Gaheris]

It must be admitted that what Lizzie did worked, even if her judgment was not the greatest in all respects.

Yes, that's true. If one views the situation with the belief/assumption that Lizzie is guilty, her judgment is, as you say, not the greatest, however, and I sometimes feel that, if guilty, she was very lucky to be acquitted, her behaviour can certainly be seen as suspicious.

[Constantine]

I certainly agree that her acquittal was more due to dumb luck and the state of forensics in her day than to careful planning. If she had done the same thing today, she wouldn't have stood a chance.

[Yooper]

Modern forensics and crime scene protocol would have done a lot of good, no doubt about that. The prevailing attitude at the time, the reluctance to subject a woman to capital punishment, also played a large role in the acquittal, along with other considerations. Read Dewey's charge to the jury, he was way out of bounds with his instructions. He actually argued the case for the defense! Knowlton was the default prosecutor, he didn't really want to try the case. The fact that Robinson had appointed Dewey to the bench should have caused one or the other to recuse himself, either Dewey from the bench or Robinson from the defense, but that didn't happen. Most of all, practically no one in Massachusetts wanted to convict a woman of first degree murder because it carried a mandatory death penalty.

[DJ]

Also, the murders occurred during the bicentennial of the Salem Witch Trials, one of the darkest benchmarks of "jurisprudence." Perhaps Lizzie's acquittal was a bit of an "atonement" by the Commonwealth?

Also, she became a poster child for the women's movement, thanks to national-- even international-- newspaper coverage, which built over the ten months that Lizzie remained in prison.

Also, I don't think anyone on the jury believed they were releasing someone who was going to kill again.

Add those to the above-mentioned trial proceedings, during which Lizzie received every break imaginable. I think the community, by that point, was by-and-large ready to "put a period" on the case, to move on with the hope that it would sooner than later disappear into the annals of history (yeah, right!) without the stain of a third killing, and an execution by the Commonweath at that.

If there had been an execution, you'd better believe there would have been plenty of newspaper editorial cartoons depicting Lizzie wearing a pointed hat, dangling from a rope, carrying captions along the lines of, "Massachusetts continues its witch hunt."

[stargazer]

Of course, her lawyers could appeal, and claim insanity. There would be enough people who might tell tales just to get her a stay in an asylum. Emma could come up with some doozies. "It pains me deeply to reveal this. I care about my sister (dab eyes) and had no idea who to approach with her late night habit of......" "and then she"......( a long sob, and a big boo hoo)

[Gaheris]

Modern forensics and crime scene protocol would have done a lot of good, no doubt about that. The prevailing attitude at the time, the reluctance to subject a woman to capital punishment, also played a large role in the acquittal, along with other considerations. Read Dewey's charge to the jury, he was way out of bounds with his instructions. He actually argued the case for the defense! Knowlton was the default prosecutor, he didn't really want to try the case. The fact that Robinson had appointed Dewey to the bench should have caused one or the other to recuse himself, either Dewey from the bench or Robinson from the defense, but that didn't happen. Most of all, practically no one in Massachusetts wanted to convict a woman of first degree murder because it carried a mandatory death penalty.

That's interesting. I wasn't aware that there may have been any kind of reluctance on anybody's part to find her guilty. Did all of this perhaps cloud their judgment?

[Yooper]

There was indeed a reluctance to convict a woman of first degree murder.

From Robert Sullivan's book, "Goodbye Lizzie Borden":

In 1857 a female charged with murdering her husband by arsenic poisoning was tried in Plymouth County. The evidence against her was overwhelming, but the jury resisted conviction and was unable to reach a verdict.
Months later, in 1858, the state legislature enacted the so-called "murder statute" for the first time, distinguishing murder in the first degree and murder in the second degree, defining both and requiring a mandatory sentence of life imprisonment and not the death penalty for persons convicted of murder in the second degree. It had been argued to the legislature that regardless of the evidence, it was impossible to convict female defendants in murder cases because of the mandatory death penalty.
Immediately after the new murder statute was enacted, the Plymouth County female defendant just mentioned was re-tried and, after a discussion of abandonment of purpose to kill and some flimsy evidence of lack of deliberate premeditation, she was convicted by the jury of second degree murder and sentenced to life imprisonment.
Some thirty years later, and only a few years before Lizzie Borden came to trial, Sarah Jane Robinson, accused of six murders, was convicted of first degree murder and sentenced to death. Shortly thereafter, on the sole ground that she was a woman, her sentence was commuted to life imprisonment. Incongruously, militant equal-rights-for-women groups exerted considerable pressure upon the Governor to obtain this commutation.

It may be argued that the reluctance to convict a woman of first degree murder was the legacy of the Salem Witch Trials. Whatever the impetus for the reluctance, it was so ingrained that laws were enacted based upon it. The charge of second degree murder was apparently created based upon the premise of an impossibility to convict, or a reluctance to do so!

I would have to say that the reluctance did a good deal more than merely cloud their judgment, it formed the very basis for their judgment.

I recommend Robert Sullivan's book to anyone interested in the legal aspects of the Borden case. Sullivan was a former justice of the Massachusetts Superior Court, he held the same position as the judges present at Lizzie's trial.

[Constantine]

When I said Lizzie would not have stood a chance today, I mean that she would have been convicted (except perhaps by reason of insanity). I think she still would likely have evaded the death penalty (by the way, does Massachusetts have one today?). She just wouldn't have gotten off scot free.

I think the fact that Lizzie yelled for Bridget after "discovering" her father is a strong indication of her guilt. If I had discovered a fresh-killed corpse, I'd melt out of the house as quickly and silently as possible and worry about others afterwards.

By the way, have the Mutton Eaters done any experiments to see if someone yelling upstairs from the ground floor could be heard from Bridget's room? (If the doors to the attic and Bridget's room were open, perhaps so. Has it been established whether they were or not?)

[Yooper]

There is currently no death penalty in Massachusetts for first degree murder, it has been replaced with a life without parole penalty since the '70s. In 1951 the penalty was left to the discretion of the jury, either death or life without parole subject to circumstances, but the death penalty was abolished some time in the '70s.

Being that Victorian hypocrisy has gone by the wayside, it would be a different ball game if the trial were taking place currently.

[SallyG]

When Lizzie yelled upstairs for Bridget, she knew darned well Bridget was ok. If I came into my house to find a murder victim, I would either a). assume everyone had been killed, b). assume perhaps one of the other family members had done it and was now lying in wait for ME, or c). assume the killer was still in the house. Either way, I would have been out of that house and down the street to a neighbors for help! There is no way I would have stayed in the house until help arrived!

I doubt Lizzie sent Bridget out of the house for help because she needed to do anymore crime scene clean up...she had probably taken care of that before she summoned Bridget. She was probably just mentally preparing herself for the upcoming ordeal. And I don't doubt she looked very agitated...not only had she just committed 2 murders, but she knew very well things were going to be very "busy" in the upcoming days.

I really think Lizzie assumed everyone would accept her story of what happened...I doubt it ever dawned on her that she would not be taken at her word and would be on trial for murder. After all, she was an upper class Lady...why would anyone suspect HER of murder.

Lizzie probably would have fared better if she left the house and went downtown shopping and left Bridget to discover the bodies. Bridget would have not known when exactly Lizzie left, or if an intruder came in and killed everyone. Although Bridget would have probably been the prime suspect.

[DJ]

I think the reason Lizzie didn't just leave and go shopping, apparently oblivious to what had happened, goes back to her probable desire to be on the inside, from the get-go-- to know what people were saying, how the police were approaching the crime. Whether, in short, they were suspecting her at all.

Moreover, if the dress she burned were key evidence-- and I think many of us believe it was-- then she would have the worry of someone discovering it while she was off somewhere else. (I still think she had a hiding place in the clothes press, which could then be locked.)

I think our consensus is that the normal reaction would have been to immediately run to a neighbor's, to summon help.

I recall when a neighbor's house was burgled when I was in fifth grade. Once the returning neighbor realized the house had been broken into, she ran out and down the street, to ring our bell, first to telephone the police. If someone were still in the house, she certainly didn't want to encounter them on her lonesome. And, that was just a robbery.

[Harry]

Partial quote:

I really think Lizzie assumed everyone would accept her story of what happened...I doubt it ever dawned on her that she would not be taken at her word and would be on trial for murder. After all, she was an upper class Lady...why would anyone suspect HER of murder.

Good point, SallyG. Guilty or not, that's long been my feeling that Lizzie never thought her story would be questioned, out of her naiveté and/or her position.

[Gaheris]

Lizzie probably would have fared better if she left the house and went downtown shopping and left Bridget to discover the bodies.

Perhaps Lizzie feared that if she went downtown to give herself an alibi, there was a big possibility that she might be seen (either leaving the house, or on her way to wherever it was that she had chosen as her alibi.) I don't know how much chance there was of her being seen, but had this happened, this would put her in a just as bad, or even worse position, as it would look very much as though she was fleeing the scene of the crime.

[Yooper]

Lizzie may have thought that the person blowing the whistle was the last one suspected.

[DJ]

Yes, Lizzie's mindset seems to have been that she couldn't possibly be a suspect, particularly because of the gruesome modus operandi.

However, I don't think she was completely megalomaniacal about her actions, that there was some concern that she could be a suspect, after all, particularly because no one had ultimately "bought" her intruder story as per the robbery the year before.

I think it's interesting that Lizzie was "all over" the idea of the supposed thief in that for-instance having broken in through the cellar. However,
as that account was not accepted, Lizzie apparently dropped it for the murders.

I've mentioned before that she ought to have left the cellar door wide open on August 4th, but Lizzie had evidently abandoned the thought of supplying a cellar-entry theory and/or she had incriminating evidence stashed down cellar and therefore did not wish to draw attention to it.

In any event, it looks very bad for Lizzie, that she would support the cellar-entry theory for one crime, and not for another. *Why wouldn't it have been viable for both crimes?*

[Angel]

Yes, SallyG, you're absolutely right. Lizzie would have HAD to know that (1) Bridget was still alive upstairs and (2) a murderer was not still in the house upstairs, or she would have never stayed in that house if she was innocent.

[Kat]

That jury retired at 3:24 pm and came back to the courtroom and gave their verdict at 4:32 pm. That's 68 minutes.
Give some time off for retiring, then being brought the exhibits, and coming back into the courtroom and getting settled- say those extra 6 minutes and we come to their deliberations at 60 minutes (out of 68).

I think they left the courtroom already decided. Why they had no need to really deliberate, I don't know. They even seem to have felt they didn't even need to seem to deliberate.
That seemingly shows they were confident that the judges, the lawyers, the cast of characters, the press and the public would expect their decision to be cut-and-dried "not guilty."
That's a lot of people who (they thought) would agree with them. Somehow knowing that, and yet sequestered, at that, seems to show there was no way Lizzie would have been convicted for any reason.

The original question was: What would I have done if I were Lizzie (and guilty).

I would have slipped away, with all the evidence, and established an alibi elsewhere. Lizzie set that up before Bridget went upstairs, as Bridget testified that Lizzie told her she may go out:

Prelim
Bridget
(earlier doc page) 24

Q. What did you do then when you finished washing the window?
A. I went out in the kitchen, and Miss Lizzie was talking to me a little while, not very long.

Q. What was she saying?
A. She asked was I going out that afternoon. I told her I did not know, I might, and I might not. I was not feeling very well. She said Mrs. Borden was going out, or gone out. I could not catch the two words she said; that somebody was sick. I asked her who was sick. She said she did not know, but she had a note that morning. "If you go out, be sure and lock the door, because I may be out."

Lizzie seems to have intended to be gone- because she also said she had planned to get her fishing gear straight and go out that afternoon.

Inquest
Lizzie
49
Q. You had not then bought your lines?
A. No sir, I was going out Thursday noon.

Lizzie sticking around to try to keep tabs on things after the bodies were found is not something I especialy believe in, as a reason to stay. If she left she could dispose of the dress and the weapon and not have to protect any hiding places.

[Yooper]

As far as staging the crime goes, Lizzie might have killed Bridget, then hit herself on the head a few times with the hatchet, then crawled or staggered to the door and hollered for help. The hatchet could have been dropped nearby to be found by police. Lizzie then could have said that anyone was anywhere at any time from the point of Andrew's return, and there was no one to contradict her.

Part of the purpose of the crime is often overlooked. Someone wanted both Abby and Andrew dead, but they also wanted to spare both Bridget and Lizzie.

[Yooper]

Just the fact that the hatchet was missing raises a valid question. Why would an intruder want to take the chance of being seen carrying or hiding a hatchet? Why not just leave it behind?

[Kat]

Well, there was a dress that seemingly got in the way and thought should be burned. And there was the hatchet with a broken handle that was made much of, but not left out in plain sight but rather *hidden* in a box with supposed ashes as a blind to make it look old and not used lately.

So, those things were considered to be "hidden" by Lizzie- my personal response was taking that into account- that she wanted to hide or dispose of these things.

But, the HH was not the first weapon to be considered as the weapon- it was the claw-head hatchet that Was "found" out in the open on the chopping block in the cellar near the furnace- it looked like it had blood, it did have a hair and some cotton fibres on it.

[DJ]

Kat,

Referring to the testimony you posted from Bridget-- makes me wonder if Bridget's indecisiveness about leaving that afternoon fouled up-- read "sped up"-- Lizzie's plans.

Let's assume she's guilty:

(1) Mrs. Borden is out on the sick call indefinitely, no one knows where, according to Lizzie.

(2) Mrs. Borden's body can remain upstairs, unnoticed, for the time being. Bridget and Mr. Borden have no cause to go upstairs.

(3) So, perhaps Lizzie intended (hoped) for Bridget to go out early that afternoon, so that Lizzie could finish business undisturbed, then go out herself, setting up the scenario that the murders were committed after Mrs. Borden allegedly returned from wherever it was on her call, and while Mr. and Mrs. Borden were alone in the house.
(All the more reason to push the sale at Sargent's on Bridget.)

Via this plan, Lizzie puts both herself and Bridget out of the house when the murders are supposedly committed-- in the absence of Lizzie's knowledge re blood coagulation and digestive processes.

**********************************************************
Now, the sticky wicket is Uncle John. Isn't it odd that Lizzie never asks if he is to return for lunch? It's as if she knows he is going to-- all she had to do was ask Abby, after the men left that a.m.

Was she going to set him up to discover the bodies, or was she just going to go with the flow, hope he took his lunch as quickly as possible, then proceed with her plan to dispatch Mr. Borden and leave the bodies in the house?

If Lizzie disliked her uncle and she really wanted to cast suspicion elsewhere (namely, on him) she could have been trying to set him up as the one who found the bodies.

[Yooper]

Lizzie could have asked Abby if Morse was returning for lunch, without fear of contradiction from anyone!

[stargazer]

I may have asked this before : Was Lizzie downstairs when the men left ? Didn't Uncle John leave first, and Andrew called to him to "come back for lunch ?" I can't recall if they left together. Lizzie could peer from Emmas window to see anyone walking alongside the house to the street.

[Kat]

Yes that's a good point about getting Bridget out of the house and then a good reminder that Uncle John may have fouled up the plan, if Lizzie had one.
But:
If I were Lizzie, and wanted to get out after and establish an alibi, I'm not sure if I would mess with Bridget's normal routine. That might make it suspicious afterwards. Since Lizzie did not usually apprise Bridget of any sales downtown, that is out of character- and I don't think I would do that.

As for Uncle John coming, that must have either been planned, or she had good faith that he would not interfere! I would have called the whole thing off when I knew JVM was going to be staying!

[Kat]

Stargazer, Morse had left before Lizzie came down, and I think he went north- more likely past the guest room window and Emma's bedroom window, if Lizzie were to look out.

Andrew was still at home, as Lizzie gave him that letter to mail- which we have wondered was her way of getting him out of the house that morning!

[Yooper]

Does anyone know the distance to the Whitehead house compared to the distance to Alice Russell's house? What I'm getting at is Lizzie sent Bridget to fetch Alice, apparently without a thought about looking for Abby. If Lizzie wanted to appear to be unaware that Abby had been killed, she might have sent Bridget to look for her rather than Alice. Lizzie might have also had Bridget stop at the Whitehead house while she was going for Alice if it was more or less the same direction. This would at least imply that Lizzie thought Abby was still alive.

[stargazer]

Does anyone know the distance to the Whitehead house compared to the distance to Alice Russell's house? What I'm getting at is Lizzie sent Bridget to fetch Alice, apparently without a thought about looking for Abby. If Lizzie wanted to appear to be unaware that Abby had been killed, she might have sent Bridget to look for her rather than Alice. Lizzie might have also had Bridget stop at the Whitehead house while she was going for Alice if it was more or less the same direction. This would at least imply that Lizzie thought Abby was still alive.

But didn't Lizzie tell Alice soon before/night before the murders that she thought Andrew had enemies? Alice would be almost essential to the drama.("Oh Lizzie, he DID have enemies") I would have sent Bridget to the livery stable to send a lad for the police. Alice to the rescue ? Doesn't make sense to me. Maybe Uncle John's arrival triggered the murders. "Now or never" Lizzie may have thought.

[Harry]

Partial quote:

Does anyone know the distance to the Whitehead house compared to the distance to Alice Russell's house?

This 1877 map shows the 3 locations. Green is 92 Second St, Red, the approx. location of Alice Russells and Blue the approx. location of the Whiteheads. Alice's house is nearer walking wise.

[Yooper]

Thanks, Harry!

So, by the time Bridget arrived at Alice's house she was just about halfway to the Whitehead residence. It wouldn't have been much out of her way to send her to look for Abby there when she went to get Alice, it looks like around the corner and up the street. It might have been a bit better for Lizzie to have Bridget go through the motions of checking for her at the Whitehead house after sending Alice. Heck, it would have looked better for Lizzie if she had thought of Abby on her own instead of being prompted to think of her by others! But then, she was more concerned with having to make arrangements at the cemetery herself rather than with Abby having to make them. Methinks she knows too much!

[Kat]

That's a great map, Har! Thanks!


~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Bridget
Prelim
29
A. We [Lizzie & Bridget] were talking, I said I would like to know where Mrs. Borden was. I said I would go over to Mrs. Whitehead's. She said she would like us to search for Mrs. Borden, she told us to go and search for her. I said I would go over there, if I knew where the house was. She said she was positive she heard her coming in, and would not we go up stairs and see.
~ ~ ~ ~
Trial
Bridget
A. "Oh," I says, "Lizzie if I knew where Mrs. Whitehead was I would go and see if
Mrs. Borden was there and tell her that Mr. Borden was very sick." She says,
"Maggie, I am almost positive I heard her coming in. Won't you go up stairs to
see." I said, "I am not going up stairs alone."
........ ......... .......

Q. When you returned with the sheets did you lock the door?
A. Yes sir.

Q. It was after that then that the conversation about going to Mrs. Whitehead's
occurred?
A. Yes sir.

Q. Won't you state that again? I did not quite hear it. You said, "I says Lizzie, if I
knew---" Now upon your return, what was said?
A. I said, "Miss Lizzie, if I knew where Mrs. Whitehead's was I would go and see if
Mrs. Borden is there. She said, "Maggie, I am almost positive I heard her coming
in," she said, "I am sure she is up stairs." I said, "I am not going up again."

Q. Who is Mrs. Whitehead?
A. Mrs. Borden's sister.

Q. Who lived in Fall River?
A. Yes sir.

Q. In consequence of what was said to you, what was said or done?
A. Mrs. Churchill said she would go with me. I went from the dining-room into the
sitting-room and up stairs.

[Yooper]

Lizzie hearing Abby return had to have taken place some time before 9:30 when Abby died. She told both Andrew and Bridget that Abby was out at around 10:45.

[DJ]

Thanks for the map and testimony!

Now, where's the logic in Mrs. Borden coming in and going up to the guest bedroom, especially *first thing* upon her return? Surely, she would have checked in with Bridget first, on the progress w/ the windows and plans for the dinner.

That's another issue that begs one wonder about the alleged note. It strikes me as odd that Mrs. Borden would leave the premises and not inform Bridget, especially if she were going to market (as Lizzie claimed in inquest testimony).

Perhaps the dreaded key was on the mantel, and everyone figured there was no way Mrs. Borden could be in her own bedroom.

Okay, testimony trackers with key words plugged in: Did Lizzie ever answer a question as to the last place she saw Mrs. Borden alive that a.m.? Did Lizzie ever get so bold as to admit she saw her in the guest room? That would have been very damning.

[Yooper]

There's even less logic in telling two people that Abby is out when you've heard her return. When would Abby have to leave in order to visit someone and be back prior to 9:30? Who would have been where when she left?

[stargazer]

Fascinating map. No sidewalks, 2 big churches, no livery stable across from Lizzie's place. How many of the buildings remain, generally speaking ? Which way did Uncle John head ? It's eerie to see an old bird's eye view of the big picture.