Lizzie learning of Andrew's will

[BrianKLoftin]

At Lizzie's inquest, she testified that the only thing she had ever heard about her father having a will was told to her by her Uncle John Morse. I wonder, what does everyone make of this? Is this something that would have come up in casual conversation between an uncle and his neice in that time period? What sort of situation might have warranted such a disclosure, and why? I can't really find anything as to why he would have told her, or what significance his telling her may or may not have had. I am just trying to imagine the sort of conversation it was, or how it may have come up in their talking to one another. She seems to downplay it as insignificant talk. Minor point, but curious. Your thoughts?

[Debbie]

I seem to remember Lizzie saying this as well. It has been a while since I really studied some of my Lizzie books. I'm sure the others on here will know the answer.
Having said that, I am wondering if it would have been considered proper for John to ask Andrew about the will to make sure his sisters children would be taken care of and they would not have had to beg a living from Abby.
Did Emma and/or Lizzie ask Uncle John to talk to Andrew? We all know how they felt about Abby.

[stargazer]

Perhaps Uncle John was giving her a "heads up" or maybe John wanted her to know that an Abby "deal" was in the works. Just a thought. It would be good to know if Lizzie and he were fairly trusting of one another. I don't think she saw or spoke to John until he came back into the house after the "deed."

Seems odd that she didn't go chat in the sitting room (the evening before) with Uncle, etc, but things weren't "normal" with that particular family (as a unit) generally speaking.

Maybe Lizzie brought up the subject by mentioning Emma, and herself wishing to be well cared for when Andrew passed. John surely knew that they didn't wish to be with Abby. He couldn't lie to her just to tell her what she wanted to hear. Perhaps she saw the possibility of a changed will as a "betrayal" and humiliation.

[Robert Harry]

It doesn't seem so surprising to me to think Lizzie would have talked along these lines to Uncle John--after all, he was her mother's brother, a Morse. It is not unlikely that John might have been concerned about how old man Borden was going to take care of his sister's children. Lizzie and John would both have had a vested interest in the Morse side--and Andrew was getting on in years (by 19th century standards he was already pretty old. The newspaper articles even refer to Abby (who was a mere 64 as "the old woman.")

[DJ]

Yes, that was the will that was destroyed.

I've several times mentioned that J. V. Morse was "way up in Andrew's business."
Now, maybe Andrew confided in him, without prompting.
Maybe J.V.M. prompted him for information.
Probably: A combo of both.

What strikes me as interesting, as noted above, is that Lizzie can speak freely of estate matters with her Uncle, but they allegedly speak not a word during his visit of the 3rd/a.m. of the 4th.

There is ample proof, via Emma's Inquest testimony, that J.V.M. was a conduit between Mr. Borden and Lizzie & Emma, supplying info regarding Mr. Borden's personal finances that they would not otherwise have had, most probably.
(Uncle John could ask questions about Mr. Borden's personal financial planning that they were not allowed to ask, most probably.)

I still believe that the murders were the result of J.V.M. passing along-- to Emma and, by result, to Lizzie-- something about Mr. Borden's forthcoming financial plans that Lizzie found unacceptable.

This may have been a stock transfer to Abby, the dispensation of real estate, and/or the working out of a new will.

If a new will favoring Abby were about to be drawn up, Lizzie (and Emma) would have had to suck it up.

Yes, as mentioned above, Abby was getting on in years, twice as old as Lizzie. Therefore, Lizzie undoubtedly felt it unfair that Abby should inherit more than she. Also, and I believe this was key to Lizzie's thinking:

*Lizzie didn't want any of Abby's relations to come into her Daddy's money or property.*

[Yooper]

If Andrew was planning a will which tended to disfavor Lizzie and Emma to a degree, and if Emma was aware of that and told Lizzie about it, then Emma would have likely put two and two together before arriving home. Morse might have had a suspicion about it, but he may have had to wait for Emma's return to find out if she had told Lizzie.

[Angel]

Maybe Bridget's intended confession when she thought she was dying was that she overheard the Bordens and Morse talking about the making of a will or some other financial thing concerning Lizzie. So when she later found out about the murders she kept quiet about what she had heard. She was either too loyal or too scared to tell the authorities because she knew it would convict Lizzie, and she carried the guilt of obstructing justice throughout her whole life.

[Robert Harry]

Going back to what Stargazer said earlier, I just had a thought that never struck me before. Could it have been that Lizzie's not speaking to JVM was a "studied silence?" In other words, she set him up to arrive at the house and get info from Andrew about a will. Then, as Stargazer said, he gave Lizzie a "heads up," to go ahead with the murders (saying, "Yes, he is about to write a will that is indeed favorable to Abby and her clan--so act now!"). Then, by avoiding any contact with JVM--except for a whispered exchange at night (he was, after all, staying in the room that adjoined hers, separated by a usually closed door0. Then Lizzie could safely say that 1) she knew nothing about a will because 2) she didn't talk (publicly) to her uncle. The only thing that throws this hypothesis off is the possibility that Lizzie was trying to poison the family with prussic acid in the days before the murders. If so, the murders could not be following upon any info gained from conversations on Aug. 3. Another thing that I've often wondered about is Andrew's insouciance about Lizzie--wasn't he aware that she was a "loose cannon," esp. after her episodes of kleptomania, her staged break-in to the house, and her "spirited" reaction to the sale of the property that benefited Abby's family. If he were preparing a will that risked irritating Lizzie wouldn't he be afraid of what she might do? But then again, that's probably why she ultimately chose a hatchet--it would be so out of character for a woman.

[DJ]

I think you've raised a vital question about the timeline for Lizzie's preparations for murder (given the assumption that she committed them).

Mr. Knowlton seemed to think, ex post facto of the trial, that something crucial happened after JVM arrived that lit Lizzie's fuse.

Well, something could have.

Also, that something could have been "on top of" something else, or just have confirmed that that "something else" was indeed about to transpire.
(Say, plans for a new will.)

Some writers claim that Lizzie was attempting to obtain prussic acid in New Bedford, before she even tried at Eli Bence's in Fall River.

If we accept that, then Lizzie's mind was on murder before she even left home in mid July 1892. Maybe something that happened AFTER JVM's arrival made Lizzie think, "To heck with poison; I'm grabbin' the hatchet."
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Yes, R.H., I've often wondered why Andrew and Abby didn't set up a separate residence. LIfe would have been so much more pleasant.
Maybe they were planning to do so, and that was part of Lizzie's big beef.
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I would dearly like anyone with any input to "get at" Emma's frame of mind when she left the house that July.
She packed everything in her closet.
Also, is there any record that such late-summer jaunts were customary for Emma?
IOW: Could something have happened in mid July 1892 that left Emma Borden saying, "I'm leaving and I don't know when I'll be back."
IOW: Was Emma's extended trip atypical for her?

[snokkums]

I never knew Andrew ever talking about a will.I thought he never had one.