Lizzie chopping wood

[BrianKLoftin]

What is this allegation that Lizzie Borden once chopped wood at a policeman's picnic, startling onlookers? It was on "History's Lost and Founds." Surely this is made-up information because if it had indeed happened, someone would have spoken of it during the trial.

[mbhenty]

Yes, please forgive me.........





That little clip is well done. But, it looks like they interviewed Ryckebusch. I am not claiming that the picnic story came from him, but it is the sort of thing he would make up; like a piece of Abby's scalp being found under the radiator.

The story is too spectacular not to have been reported else where. Not only that, but are we to really believe that after the murder of her father and stepmother that Lizzie would ever be seen with an ax in her hand or hanging out with the local fuzz?



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwXAIKMLPvI
(you may have to click on the screen to make the film play)

[augusta]

mb - I don't know that Jules Ryckebush (sp?) makes things up. I'd think he would know this case inside and out. Do you recall where you read or heard that about Abby's scalp?

I have read that, what I'll call "fable" about Lizzie chopping wood at a policemen's picnic. I think it dribbled down from someone who heard it from someone who heard it from someone who was directly associated with the case.

I think I heard that on tv too, as well as read it somewhere. I don't think the tv show should have used that. It made them look silly, and perpetuates yet another myth people will believe.

There's another one that I think is nonsense, too. That one says that Lizzie and a girlfriend were walking along and I can't remember why, but Lizzie picked up an axe and chopped something ... I can't remember what exactly. I read that one in a book, too.

In Agnes DeMille's "Dance of Death", she went out to Fall River and interviewed some second generation of people affiliated with the case in the 1960's. Someone told her that Lizzie was asked to sit by the open casket of a lady that had died, and she was left alone. While alone, it was claimed that Lizzie took off all the dead lady's underwear off. I don't think Agnes deMille made it up. I think it's like it's said in the book - that someone actually told her that. But it's ridiculous. Ms. DeMille didn't say if she believed it or not; she simply told of the incident.

[mbhenty]

Yes Augusta, I imagine that you, like many of us, have a specific and significant respect for those with the epithet "Professor" in front of their name. For this title gives him respect, reverence, admiration, and acceptance. Along with this comes information, facts, knowledge and an entitlement that comes with hard brainy work.

Of the endeavors that bestowed upon him the title professor, I have great respect. I'll even admit that the reason I do not have "Professor" in front of my name is because my brain said "No you don't" or must I admit, "No you can't."

Now, with this title he gets the "LITTLE PEOPLE" like you and me to kneel and kiss his ring. (Just like I had to do with Mother Superior in grade school)

And when it comes to speaking engagements---you need that title to be hired to speak. Or at least or at least have written book. If you have written a book AND have the title PROFESSOR along with it----well may I kneel and kiss your ring?

Ok, ok you have figured it out by now. I don't like the guy. Not because of who he is but the MISINFORMATION he spreads. He should and does know better. He speaks with authority and people listen.

"Well, you know Mr Ryckebuch said, etc. etc. etc., and he should know".

And he probably well does. He just likes to add stuff. Who's to question him?

For one I am.

The research Mr. Ryckebusch has done to attain his information is no different then the one done by you and I.

There is no school or degree of "BORDEN STUDIES"

Most of it is done outside academia. We learn about what happen like everyone else. Out on the streets in books, court transcripts, city records, etc. And, that is how Mr. Ryckebusch got his---except that he has gotten to be a know it all and has forgotten a lot of the facts, or choses too. Along with the fact that he make's sh-t up.

Sure, there are does who say they have interviewed a cousin of, or a friend of, who knew a friend who, knew Lizzie over 100 years ago. So what?

Can it be true. Could be!

Can you prove it correct, or that the 3rd hand person did not get it wrong or was daft?

NO!

[mbhenty]

But, there is more........


(Augusta, If you check the link I supplied for the YOUTUBE clip, you will hear Ryckebusch, in his own words, the story about Abby's scalp.)

[mbhenty]

Yes Augusta:

Ryckebusch never says: "I think", or "it was about," or "It is believed", or "It was written in" etc. etc.

He says, AND IT WAS SO, period.

I don't speak through my hat here. I had a friend of mine attend one of his talks and he filmed/taped Ryckebusch and I have that film footage.

There also, he talks about Abby's scalp flying across the room and being found under the radiator.

He also claims that Abby DID see Lizzie with the ax, coming at her. He does not say "probably" or "Could have", he says with self confidence, she did. How would he know that.

He also claims that Abby was trying to climb under the bed to get away from Lizzie but could not fit. Again---he doesn't add that this is possible. The term "Professor" in front of his name says it IS SO.

In this talk, and I heard it with my own ears, he claims, claims, that Lizzie had to kill Abby because she caught her NAKED, MASTURBATING.

Come on now......

Sure it's entertaining, but false and fraudulent information. And he knows it.

In that talk he also claims that Lizzie never went fishing.

He claims that he has a copy of Lizzie's Inquest, which no one does.(with the possible exception of Robinson's Law firm, Lizzie's lawyer)

He also said that the skulls of Andrew and Abby were delivered to Lizzie's home in a hat box, and that he has seen pictures of those hat boxes.

Yeah, prove it Mr. Ryckebusch. Don't just tell us. Show us that photograph. Show us the Inquest information. Write a book.

Come on now. Please, stop it. You know better. And that's not nice.


NOW, can you see how it could be possible, not that it is true, that he was the one who gave the film company the story about Lizzie at the picnic.(?)

SHAME ON YOU RYCKEBUSCH for thinking me a fool.

[augusta]

mb, I went back and listened to your YouTube link and didn't hear anything about Abby's scalp. Did I miss it?

He did say that Officer Fleet asked Lizzie where her mother was and she gave her famous line about Abby being her step-mother, not her mother.
But that was not how it went, that I remember in my readings. Lizzie said that line when she was upstairs questioned by a cop (and I think that cop was Harrington) and Abby had already been found.

I wasn't aware of Mr. R. saying things that weren't accurate about the case. I think it's pretty easy to make a mistake in writing or talking about Lizzie - there's so much there, and people who came before him and blatantly made things up (V. Lincoln, F. Spiers, etc.) don't help any of us.

Sure I have respect for him. But I've always liked him. I think he has a kind face and he's a fun speaker. Maybe he needs to brush up on his Lizzie reading, tho. I didn't know he may have made some erroneous claims.

[mbhenty]

Yes, sorry Augusta, I got the films mixed up. No there is nothing about the scalp on that film. My mistake.

BUT check out the very short little clip below. It's on that one.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uPYtoePy7y8


(You may or may not have to click on the Youtube screen to make the film play)

Oh yes, and there is one more thing you left out in your last post. When asked about her mother the cop "LOOKS LIZZIE IN THE EYE" and Lizzie
"LOOKS HIM IN THE EYE." and says..........

The cop could have been looking out the window---how does he know.

Lizzie could have been looking down or away. (?)

But, to be sensational he claims that they looked each other in the eye. Come on now.

Ok, no big deal you may say. (I think it is.)

Well Augusta, as you say---and the way he puts it, he says, "Fleet came into the house and here's Andrew dead on the sofa and looks Lizzie in the eye and says, Miss Borden where's your mother" etc.

This makes it sound that as soon as the officer walked in he looked down at the dead body and immediately asked Lizzie about her mother.

Sensational---but misleading. Ryckebusch the ever consummate showman.

Now, did the cop drag a light over to Lizzie's face, (oil lamp of course) grab her chair by the arms, look Lizzie straight in the eyes, just short of his nose touching hers, and ask, "Miss Borden where's your mother"?

Where does it stop>

He asked her the question. No one can tell where they were standing or what they were looking at when questions were asked. That is lost to history. Again, though you may think that is no big deal---the truth is that the infraction of telling it that way is that it leads to other, bigger tales. And along with what he has forgotten or got wrong, he makes sh-t up.

[augusta]

mb, thanks for posting the correct YouTube clip.

Wasn't the first blow the one that hit her in the back, creating a flap?

Well, this is the first time I've heard a piece of Abby's scalp being found under the radiator. Could it be he knows stuff we don't? (I don't think so, tho.)

No, I wouldn't call this acceptable. Sounds like he needs to brush up on the case - and stay away from V. Lincoln and Spiering's books.

Thanks for sharing all this. I still like him, but I won't believe stuff he says without checking it out.

I also agree with you about the cop looking Lizzie in the eye. I do think that's important. We don't know if the cop did or not. And I am pretty sure that "she is my step-mother" quote Lizzie gave to Harrington upstairs when she went up there with Alice Russell to change into that pink striped wrapper and rest.

Wow - I am really surprised that he takes such liberties with the case. Maybe it makes him a livelier speaker, but you're right. It does lead to bigger myths.

I never heard of the film this was taken from. I'll have to look into where I can get a copy of it. Never saw it before. Thanks again.

[Yooper]

Has anyone actually questioned Ryckebusch about his sources? Just because we don't have an item of information does not indicate it doesn't exist.

[SteveS.]

Alas...I stand again with MB on this one. I actualy had the "privalage" of knowing Prof. Rykerbusch in person and yes he is a nice, educated, charming man but he is also the king of Bullcrap when it comes to Lizzie Borden. He knows no more about the case then the average reader here on the forum. There is no secret Lizzie file that only he has access to. He totaly embelishes his stories about the case for none other reason then sensationalism. It makes for a very entertaining speaker. We on the forum will never accept things at face value. We demand proof and sources for new info on the case. But the sad part is the average person that sees or hears one of Prof. Rykebusch's authoratative lectures on Lizzie will accept what he says as gospel truth because he is a man of academia and they will not question his "facts" and so the myths spread.
The fabrications he makes might not seem that big a deal in the overall scheme of things, but it basicaly undermines all the legitimate research that has been done on the case.

[Yooper]

There is little difference between the average person accepting Ryckebusch's lecture as gospel, and us making presumptions about his lack of sources and motivations for embellishment. The way to resolve the problem is to confront him about his sources.

[augusta]

If you think it best, Yooper, why don't you drop him a line and ask? The answer would be interesting.

[Yooper]

How do I reach him?

[jcurry]

How do I reach him?

ules Rychebusch 30 Arlnold Plc New Bedford MA 02740

[augusta]

That'd be funny if "jcurry" was Jules Ryckebush.

Good luck, Yooper. He looks like he's a really nice guy and maybe quite approachable.

That piece of Abby's scalp bothers me. I remember if from somewhere.

[Wordweaver]

That'd be funny if "jcurry" was Jules Ryckebush.

That piece of Abby's scalp bothers me. I remember if from somewhere.

Abby's hairpiece is on display at the FRHS Museum. There's something shocking about it. It gave me chills, and it was a hot, humid day.

[goddessoftheclassroom]

Forgive my ignorance, please, but were there really radiators in the house at the time of the murders? I thought there were no modern conveniences. It surprises me that there would be water pipes for heating but not for running water, not gas lines for light.

[Harry]

Yes, there were quite a number of steam radiators throughout the house.

Robinson in his closing argument to the jury had this to say:

"...Then they start off on another track, and they say she killed her stepmother and her father because that was a house without any comforts in it. Well, gentlemen, I hope you all live in a better way than the Borden family lived, so far as having good furniture and conveniences. Are your houses all warmed with steam? Do you have carpets on every one of your floors, stairs and all? Do you have pictures and pianos and a library and all conveniences and luxury? Do you? Well, I congratulate you, if you do. This is not a down-trodden people. ..."

[goddessoftheclassroom]

Ahhhhhhhh...thank you.

[mbhenty]

Yes, in the last issue of the Hatchet Magazine (Vol. 6, No.2 Issue 26) Michael Brimbau touches on the issue of radiators in the borden house. In it he remarks on William Baldwin who is credited with the progression of the American heating system, and his patent registered in 1874.

In it he says: "early in the 1890s that residential radiator heating systems came into their own, becoming more affordable and marketable---"

So, skinflint Borden shelled out an impressive amount of cash to install this fairly new invention. Daring investment, I would say.

Skinflint?

As many take pleasure in persecuting Andrew for his frugality, Borden was no Hetty Green...